Pak ThunderNitin
The picture by your username is quickly becoming a self paraody.
All I or someone else has to do is post a link or picture with a Jag (Omani or otherwise) taken prior to 1977 and we can end this matter once and for all, agreed?
Or will you then try and claim the picture/source is a fake as per ususal?
Pak ThunderNitin
This is getting silly, I have proved my point, the Omanis got their Jags in 1977 with the rails orginally fitted, now you are trying to discredit the source I am using, why would anyone fib about such a minor thing.
Anyway, I am tired of trying to prove facts to people who only want to beleive things that suite them and their nationalist agendas, it wont be long until people will find lost of sources and indeed pix of Jags with overiwng missiles prior to 1980 and the Jags entry to Indian service, I really wonder what your reaction will be then……
Pak ThunderThe date of introduction of overhead pylons is not given..it may be a later improvisation
“Overwing launch rails were originally fitted, at least to the single-seaters, for carriage of the Matra Magic AAM,”
Exactly what part of the above sentence do you have a problem understanding?
Pak ThunderOman got a second batch in 1983 and we know that the overwing rails were eventually standardised all over.
Now, when we’re talking about all Omani jags, the ex-RAF-IAF ones certainly did’nt have the overwing rails and the IAF only got theirs in the 80s after integration at ASTE. 😀
Harry
The first batch were Jag Internationals delivered with rails to use the magic, yes later they got some RAF ones, but the FIRST OMANI JAG INTERNATIONALS WERE DELIVERED WITH OVERWING RAILS IN 1977
Now ad as many smiles as you want, but the above are facts and will not change, India may have odnw some integration work I dont know about that and cannot deny it, but lets not pretend they were the first
Pak Thunderwow!
Nice pix, cant wait to see pix of the F-22 operational and in USAF sqd markings, we may even see them here in the UK if Lakenheath wing get any.
The face of US air power for the next 50 years…..
Pak Thunder” All Omani Jaguars were all painted in a brown / sand desert camouflage scheme. Overwing launch rails were originally fitted, at least to the single-seaters, for carriage of the Matra Magic AAM, but for some obscure reason the Omanis decided to switch to carrying AIM-9P Sidewinders on the outboard underwing pylons. Oman actually assigned its Jaguars an air-defense role. “
Happy!? Or let me guess, your ASTE developed the Omani Jags as well!? 😉
Omans Jags were delivered in 1977, and they were using launch rails, so lets end this stupid debate here and now, as frankly lots of users here would get more credit if they just admited they may be wrong and for once their countries claims are wrong, there is no shame in it….
Pak ThunderMagic-1. The Magic-2 came much later.
Offered without the missile, without testing, without development and integration (which from all detailed accounts was finally only done at ASTE)? Similarly, there existed no such maritime variant until one actually rolled out of HAL. As already confirmed, an user-modification automatically becomes BAe property and they can “offer” it wherever they want.
The Magic-1 was also available with the French before, so why not integrate and test the rails on a Jaguar-A or even Jaguar-S?
So let me get this right, SEPECAT offered the Jag with overwing missile rails but had not done anywork on them!? Sorry I dont buy it!
Pak ThunderPak Thunder,
And you folks dont even read your own links…sigh…
That should settle the issue of when the RAF got the overwing rails for the time being, unless someone gets a better source.
It makes *no* claim about when overwing rails APPEARED on the Jaguar or were validated, merely notes that they did come about and were adopted by everyone.
Your claim of it being 1975 is again a misreading as the article makes no note of them appearing in 1975 itself.
As regards not mentioning ASTE, cant blame Greg Goebel- he did the best he could and notes:
And..
Hence, Group Captain Bhargava’s article remains the most comprehensive about the Jaguar in Indian service.
It would, given that he has access to ASTE being an ex test pilot and would get whatever information he wanted.
And that is perhaps why AFM took his piece.
It would be unfair to Goebel to compare his collation vis a vis what Bhargava could write on the Jag in Indian service.
BTW, it corroborates whatever Harry and I have pointed out:
Note that the Overwing Pylons could only be used for AAMs.
The first AAM was the Magic 2
Then came the SidewinderWe know from the ASTE article that the validation trials were done at ASTE using Magic 2’s in 1981.
That pretty much settles the issue. The others would have adopted it subsequently.
Sepecat may have intended for the Jag to have overwing pylons earlier, but ASTE was involved in the project and the DARIN test aircraft was used for the Magic trials.
BTW, this is what the Comptroller and Auditor General of India says about the “tailoring” of the Jaguar International to local desires in case you are still wondering whether local involvement was there or not… For eg the Nav subsystem:
“Three foreign vendors were chosen for development, of DARIN sub-systems. Besides, a host of Indian agencies were also associated with the development programme. As per the milestones identified for achieving….”
etcetc.
Nitin
Your fudging and confusing things for no reason, it clearly states that the Jaguar International was offered by SEPECAT with overwing rails, this was in the mid 70s. So please let me know of ANY Indian involvment with the initial development of these rails. There is none. Are you now denying that the Jaguar International was offered with overwing missile rails?
Pak ThunderIf you would learn to read through the documents posted, you would realise that it was ASTE (NOT HAL, ASTE is an IAF establishment) and not SEPECAT that integrated the Magic 2 on the Jaguar. It can be very well argued that BAe was kept in the loop throughout as with the development of the DARIN and other India specific improvements to the Jaguar international and that has also been indicated above by Harry and I.
Apparently, its you who slacked off on the research and jumped to conclusions mate.
Here is perhaps the most comprehensive online history of the Jaguar, according to this, it was SEPECAT working on the Jag in 1975 that developed the overwing launch rails. The IAF did not get its first Jag till 1979.
It has a history of the Jag in Indian service and no mention is made of ASTE, despite the rest containing comprehensive history of its weapons development.
I quote
“SEPECAT offered an option for fitting Agave radar in the nose of the Jaguar International to allow the fighter to carry and control the BAe Sea Eagle antishipping missile on the centerline pylon. The Agave could pick up a vessel at a range of 130 kilometers (80 miles) and was initially trialed by being fitted into a modified drop tank. Production Jaguars with the Agave radar have a distinctive extended “pointy nose” with no pitot tube that immediately distinguishes them from any other single-seat Jaguar variant. They are the only Jaguars that are fitted with combat radar.
Weapons carriage was also generally similar to that of British Jaguars, with several customers buying the BL755 cluster bomb as a prominent store. The Jaguar International could be fitted with the overwing pylons, mentioned in the previous section, for carriage of heat-seeking AAMs, allowing all underwing pylons to be used for heavy stores. The usual overwing munition was a Matra Magic AAM, though the Sidewinder was also qualified eventually. Although it might seem that overwing launch would have led to problems with stores separation, it apparently was no big deal.”
link
http://www.faqs.org/docs/air/avjag.html
so Nitin…..?
Pak ThunderYou know Matt, the point you made is the only true (-) against the Mirage purchase.
The IAF is going to be spending gazillions of $ on the Mirage 2000 and MKI and is going to finish inducting them by the time the Raptors will be fully ops in the USAF. The constant upgrade path can mitigate that to some extent, but even so the need for the PAK FA is vital.However, regionally speaking – the M2000 will be ok against the PAF and the PLAAF, and I guess thats what the IAF factored in.
against J-10s? F-16Es possibly?
Pak ThunderOk, now to correct the overwing pylon nonsense posted here…
According to WAPJ:
The overwing pylon was developped by SEPECAT for the Jaguar International.
It was cleared for the Magic II, in order to provide a self defense capability without compromising the combat load.Afterwards, it got cleared for the AIM-9, and the RAF then adopted it and used it in 1991.
thank god for that! Have been saying that for my last 3 posts, but some nationalists want us to belive otherwise!
Pak ThunderGuys
Take it easy on the national insults, its getting boring.
It was SEPECAT that integrated the missile, not HAL, if that upsets people then so be it, I frankly dont see the point of continuing this debate. Are people on this forum too lazy to research!?
Pak ThunderA quick google search proves that SEPECAT intended it to have overwing missiles, I dont know how anyone can take cradit for this other then the orginal manufacturers. :confused:
Pak ThunderThere were a number of variants of the basic B-57. It even served in Vietnam, and with the Pakistanis. The high-altitude versions, for missions like weather recon and air sampling for nuclear radiation, had stretched wings providing better performance at altitude. The basic Canberra, from which the B-57 was derived, was quite an outstanding performer. It could be rolled and maneuvered like a fighter, yet carried a good payload, rather like a jet version of the de Havilland Mosquito.
Thats right, PAF received 4 RB-57 for recce/ew, these had the nickname “droopy” as they had extra long wings that needed their own wingtip wheels, there may be one or two pix hanging around on the net, there is however also a classic picture of a RB-57 covered in shrapnel holes after avoiding 2 Indian SA-2s on a post war recce flight
Pak ThunderPT, which helo commander would like to use a slow, SACLOS ATGM requiring a human operator, against a fast moving target, which can be very carrying MANPADS?
Mavericks come in fire and forget flavours. The ATGMs in the PA inventory dont.
Nitin
I cannot factor in every mission our choppers will do, but I expect alot of it will involve ant-terrorism, anti-drug smuggling etc ATGM may come in handy, again, if the PN need it, I assume they know what they are doing
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