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Lolek

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Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 49 total)
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  • Lolek
    Participant

    I find it a bit strange because Mig-35 seem to gain less weight than F-16E evolution , even though its various feature such as wing area and bigger internal fuel tank should indicate more weight increase

    Yes and no. The original MiG-29M (9.15) empty weighted 11500 kg or less (The value I have is 11475 kg although not from a very reliable source, most other sources give NTOW which would result in even lower empty weight) and it incorporated most of the changes present in 9.41. It should also be remembered that the 9.41 airframe, even if derived from 9.15/9.31, was further updated with increased fraction of composites. Another factor here is probable simplification of internal structure in comparison to 9.12, due to lack of auxiliary intakes. And last but not the least, I would risk a statement that progress in electronics miniaturization between 70′ and 00′ in Russia was much bigger than in US simply because Russian 70′ electronics were seriously behind Western counterparts in terms of volume and weight.

    Yes, you can.. By adding a lithium frame, more composites, replacing the old avionics by much lighter modular systems and deleting overwing louvres and intake blocker mechanism…

    Actually from what I’ve found in the 9.41 the constructors used the same W95 alloy as in basic 9.12. The lithium alloy 01420 was applied in the original MiG-29K 9.31, but there were some minor cracks problems and since the weight savings were not very big, it was abandoned.

    Lolek
    Participant

    So if i got this right ,compared to mig-29 9.12 , weight of Mig-35 increased by 700 kg for land version , 1500 kg for carrier version and wing area increased by 4 m2 ?

    Very informative post, how many Mig-35 was bought though ?

    It seems so, I think the values are rather reliable as I’ve seen them changing only slightly during last decade. There are no sales of “MiG-35” at the moment. 12 MiG-29M/M2 were sold to Syria and 46 were bought by Egypt. I have no idea what is the status of the first order (but there are multiple posters here which should have more information). The second one was a bit enigmatic, but from what I’ve read MiG bought almost exactly one year ago 92 RD-33MK engines, what indicates that its proceeding. MiG-35 for a moment is a paper plane, the question is whenever it will be finally bought by RuAF and in which configuration.

    Lolek
    Participant

    It is interesting that despite such long discussion on the MiG-35 nobody provided actual numbers. In general using the name MiG-35 is a bit misleading, as currently all “3rd generation” Fulcrums (1st generation – 9.12 and 9.13, 2nd – 9.15 and 9.31, 3rd – 9.41 and 9.47) share practically the same airframe, what is evident looking at their designation: MiG 29K/MiG 29KUB/MiG-29M/MiG-35 are respectively 9.41/9.47/9.41S/9.41S (yes, the same designation for both Mig-29M and MiG-35). There was a time, when land based variants were designated 9.61 but basing on the recent article of P. Butowski it was changed. It should be remembered that the first MiG-35 demonstrator was not representative for current production standard as it was a refurbished airframe of MiG-29M “154” built back in 1990. The later demonstrators (numbers 961 and 967) were based on the production MiG-29K/KUB (4th airframe from the 2nd production batch and earlier “947” airframe respectively). The unified platform retains most of the dimensions of old MiG-29: total length 17.32m (9.12:17.32m), wingspan 11.99m (increase from 11.36 of 9.12), wing area 42 m2 (increase from 38 m2). The weight (again by P. Butowski) is 10900 kg empty for 9.12, 12400 kg for 9.41 and 11.600 kg for land based 9.41S. Concerning the internal fuel capacity the values are 4300l for 9.12 and 5830l for the new airframe (36% increase). The main source of the increased capacity are tanks introduced in the place of deleted auxiliary air intakes, I can’t find the exact value right now, but it’s in excess of 1000l. The increase of range however, is not as big as one may expect, as the most common number for internal fuel range is 1850 km (about 25-28% in comparison to 9.12), a bit lower than 2000km given for the 9.15 (which had practically the same fuel capacity as 9.41: 5740-5810l). Probably one of this numbers is slightly off or the decrease is a result of increased drag of enlarged canopy. As for the aerodynamics the improvement of 9.41 over 9.12 should be similar to that of 9.15: slightly improved AoA (9.15 was intended to have 30 degree limit in actual frontal use), benefits of FBW and other small improvements. Bigger improvement was probably in the g-load, as 9.15 was cleared for 9G in whole envelope (no 7G limit of 9.12 above 0.85M), what I guess was retained in 9.41. I would not take influence of TVC into account, as I don’t think that any of the operators would actually go for this solution. It is evident that RuAF is not exactly in love with the prospect of Mig-35 and even if ordered, it probably won’t differ much from the exported MiG-29M (due to costs).

    Lolek
    Participant

    I think the awnser lies in the DFCS (the digital fight control system). The Tomcat was an old lady without real FBW and the pain to reprogrammate all its systems to take all the benefits from the new engine installation could have been deemed unncecessary, especially when the Cat had already 30+ AoA and fantastic manoeuvring skills (see all the work done with the flanker).

    I put that on aero earlier but after having read part of the maual, it could be this.

    Could you tell about which part of the manual are you thinking? It would be a bit surprising, as I thought that superiority of D version over A in close combat is an established fact, even by accounts of opposing pilots.

    Lolek
    Participant

    It’s a bit surprising, as looking at the ferry range of both F-14A and 14D the difference is just about 18% (1730nm vs 2050nm, basing on the anft.net). Are the figures given by Baker influenced so heavily by the conditions of carrier start? Also, what about this 22% improvement of SEP? Why there is no indication of such huge difference on the NAVAIR E-M diagrams?

    Lolek
    Participant

    I was looking through the book of David Baker from 1998 and this fragment caught my attention:

    “Rated at 20900lb thrust with reheat the TF30 had a specific fuel consumption of 2.78lb/hr/lb while F101-DFE (further developed into F110-GE-400) with augmented thrust of 27400lb has a comparable figure of of 2.01lb/hr/lb. At an intermediate throttle level of 12350lb thrust the TF30 has an SFC of 0.69lb/hr/lb, while the F101 at the same percentage settings has a thrust of 16400lb and an SFC of 0.66lb/hr/lb. These figures translate into mission examples of comparative capabilities. With a standard CAP load of four AIM-54, two AIM-9L and two AIM-7F and with two 280 US gall fuel tanks, the F101-DFE powered Tomcat would have an endurance of 90min at radius of 300nm from the carrier, compared with 48min for a TF30-powered Tomcat.
    Performance enhancement was spectacular in 6 ways: specific excess energy was increased by 22 per cent over the TF30 (combat maneuvering energy was raised by that amount); afterburner SFC was reduced by 30 per cent; carrier take-offs could be made at military power without afterburner thereby reducing night glare and intense infra-red signatures from a great distance; time to altitude was cut by 61 per cent; the combat air patrol radius was increased by 35 per cent, making the aircraft a much more cost effective air superiority system; and fuel consumption was dramatically reduced giving the Tomcat a 62 per cent increase in deck launch intercept radius.”

    Doesn’t the statement in bold contradict what is shown in E-M diagrams? Also, all this range numbers seem a bit optimistic, is it even possible looking at the engines numbers? I’ve read that the biggest benefit of F110 in terms of cruising was higher altitude of cruise, but still, increase of all radius numbers by more than 35%?

    Lolek
    Participant

    MiG-29M is a non factor. no one ordered it. if we include fantasy test planes, we might as well include f-16XL and F-16 DSI and all sorts of fantasy airplanes

    The best? Impossible to say without naming criteria, time frame etc.
    Most successful? F-16 without any doubt. Over 4500 produced, proved in every conflict it took part in (and there were many). A very good airframe, with great potential for further development (indicated by the steadily growing empty weight), adaptable to every mission, no glaring weaknesses.
    The least successful? Unfortunately the MiG-29, which was never used as intended. The fact that in most conflicts it was used in the least capable variant MiG-29B also greatly hampered its reputation (being outnumbered and without any situational awareness did not help as well). The airframe, while certainly very capable, was crippled by the designers’ decision to go with auxiliary intakes, making it extremely short-legged. The collapse of USSR was a tragedy for this plane, if the MiG-29M ever went into serial production during 90′ we would have a completely different conversation..
    [edit] didn’t read into the context, in such situation the answer would still probably be F-16

    Which part of it was not clear?

    some people can’t seem to read.

    Can’t agree with you more. Spot-on observation.

    Lolek
    Participant

    The best? Impossible to say without naming criteria, time frame etc.
    Most successful? F-16 without any doubt. Over 4500 produced, proved in every conflict it took part in (and there were many). A very good airframe, with great potential for further development (indicated by the steadily growing empty weight), adaptable to every mission, no glaring weaknesses.
    The least successful? Unfortunately the MiG-29, which was never used as intended. The fact that in most conflicts it was used in the least capable variant MiG-29B also greatly hampered its reputation (being outnumbered and without any situational awareness did not help as well). The airframe, while certainly very capable, was crippled by the designers’ decision to go with auxiliary intakes, making it extremely short-legged. The collapse of USSR was a tragedy for this plane, if the MiG-29M ever went into serial production during 90′ we would have a completely different conversation..
    [edit] didn’t read into the context, in such situation the answer would still probably be F-16

    in reply to: The performance of MiG-29 #2150609
    Lolek
    Participant

    Andraxxus thank you for such informative replay!

    Comparison of sustained turn rates 30k feet clean 50% fuel for all aircraft:

    That is great. Would you care for making such comparison for lower altitudes? Also, can you tell how it looks for ITRs?

    What hinders MiG-29 relatively more is its AOA is also limited to 15degrees at M0,85+ and around M0,9 to M1,2 lift center of MiG-29 moves so much that its elevators are insufficent to increase AOA further

    That is completely new to me. Are such speed-correlated AoA restrictions common for other fighters?

    Speaking solely about MiG-29, it depends primarily on payload and altitude. On the worst case scenario, pulling 9Gs at M0,9 will yield 16,4 deg/s turn rate. Pulling 7Gs instead will yield 12,7 deg/s. However excess power is unhindered, MiG-29 can still use its available energy for climbing while turning at 7Gs.

    Correct if I’m wrong, but from what I understood such behavior would not be visible on the E-M diagram, as the SEP lines would not be influenced by these restrictions?

    Su-27 has also strict G limits (8G maximum, just 6,5Gs at M0,85), but it also has an OWS-like system in its FCS that relaxes it. Nevertheless Su-27 can achieve 9Gs only at around half fuel.

    Both MiG-29 and Su-27 incorporate similar layout. However, basing on your posts from other topics it seems that Sukhoi did a better job than Mikoyan in terms of aerodynamic performance. What makes for the difference between them? Are there any flight regimes in which MiG-29 would enjoy advantage?

    Maybe you refer to article in Hush kit from a former Uk exchange pilot? https://hushkit.net/2016/10/13/mirage-2000-pilot-interview-cutting-it-in-the-electric-cakeslice/

    I forgot where I read it, but it went something along the lines that the Mirage 2000, against the F-16 and Mig-29, could not be beaten in its first turn, but it only had that first turn. afterwards the advantage shifted to the other two.

    it was a greek pilot commenting on M2k vs F-16

    Most of it is indeed taken from the HAF pilot’s comments on F-16.net forum. However, there was also an article concerning the early exercises in India, during which the dogfight performance of newly delivered MiG-29B was tested against Mirage 2000H. I can’t find it at the moment, but the MiGs came on top. IIRC their main advantage was in TWR and STR, but also their ITR was high enough to survive the beginning of the fight.

    Lolek
    Participant

    If the guy is to be believed (it seems he worked with the F-14 as a pilot or technician), the Tomcats landed on carrier even with 6 AIM-54, see post #10: http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1021095

    Lolek
    Participant

    I don’t quite know what to make with the page 4-21 under paragraph 4.13.1 Authorized Stores Landing which states the following:5. AIM−54 carriage/launch is not authorized at any
    station.
    What’s that supposed to mean?

    Whole 4.13 paragraph is for configuration with TARPS, so it’s completely different case.

    Lolek
    Participant

    Well yes, not the glove vanes were deemed unnecessary per se, but the performance they allowed for was no longer required. F.e., the F-14A could pull 7.5G at Mach 2 with the help of the glove vanes. The F-14D could not.

    I did some additional searching and you are right, there is like one source which states that deletion of glove vanes was connected with the engine upgrade. The rest simply claim they were useful in a very narrow and not very useful envelope and even then, their influence was not that big. What is interesting I found an opinion of the ex-pilot who stated, that most of the squadrons deactivated them in 80’s, long before official Navy decision to do so.

    You can add Carnards and make it a tri-plane like Su-33 or No Carnards at all like Mig-29K wit Kruger flaps, And keep other stuff like variable air-inlet as well for performance wise. Those two jet can do whatever the Other CV jets can do. Its just pure acedemics. Ski-jump or steam rails.
    You increase the size of some control surfaces. Add some 1000Ib of weight/strenght and you get a jet that has far less “compromise” that F-14 had.
    IMO imagine them operate off a US super carrier..

    I think you are underestimating the extent of modification in Su-33. Both Y. Gordon and P. Butowski gives 19600 kg empty weight for Su-33, about 3 tonnes more than in the legacy Su-27 (16380 kg). In fact it’s almost as much as the empty weight of F-14D (19856 kg given by manual as weight with gun, oil and with pylons).

    Lolek
    Participant

    I was actually not aware of the 303F and Im surprised it performed so poorly compared to the swing wing version .

    Here it is, I must say it’s a very pretty beast:
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]249382[/ATTACH]

    Talking about turn rate, an engineer made a similar comparison between USAF 4-5 gen aircraft ( equalize combat radius and weapon load )

    Interesting. When compared with the E-M diagram for the F-14D it looks quite good. However, some of his findings look questionable to me, like comparison of the range between F-14D and F/A-18E (F-14D is considered inferior by him), as from what I heard the Tomcat was far superior in this aspect.

    Lolek
    Participant

    Thanks guys for your answers, I must say that I find them all really informative.

    The main problem with the Tomcat besides the engines were that it was overweight due to the complex fuselage structure to accommodate the swing wing and the weight of the pivot mechanism of the swing wing. The Fuselage suffered from a lot of cracking and was overly complicated to maintain. It should have been designed as a fixed wing and would have been equal or better to the F-15 if it was.

    It is another interesting matter for me, was a VG design a mistake in the case of the Tomcat? It is quite common that people are talking about weight penalty connected to the variable geometry configuration, however most of the books says that the VG was often chosen to allow weight savings. For example, probably we all know the story of Grumman 303F fixed wing design which was considered during F-14 development. In the words of the designers: “The 303B was modified to become the contract-award-winning E, which we then ran off against the fixed-wing 303F. The F lost for 2 reasons:

    Also, in the book on the F-14 by David Baker there was a small discussion about VG design, here are some of the most important points:
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]249379[/ATTACH]
    So how it really is with the variable-geometry, was it a technological dead-end, or there was really something into it (let’s neglect the maintenance problems connected with this idea)? Or maybe just the introduction of FBW and other aerodynamic advances made the VG obsolete?

    Also we don’t know if there is a CG shift due to this weight increase.

    Well, there is some indication of the CG shift, as the glove vanes were deleted in the D model. Partially it was dictated by lower cost of maintenance, but they were also deemed unnecessary for pure aerodynamic reasons.

    Shouldn’t having more thrust increase the STR? The more thrust you have the more you can sustain a turn at high Gs and the more lift the wings will generate during the turn.

    This is something I also still don’t fully understand, although I see that it is not as simple as I originally thought. However one thing that bothers me is the fact, that opinions on superiority of F-14D over F-14A were quite unanimous. Were the differences noted by fltgshdw significant enough to justify them?

    in reply to: Can the Tejas and JF-17 even match the old Lavi? #2173734
    Lolek
    Participant

    Originally it was supposed to be 7260 kg, but the reinforcements enable loadout of 9340 kg, at least these are the numbers by Mr. Golan. Extremely impressive if true.

Viewing 15 posts - 31 through 45 (of 49 total)