ADMK2The threat is directed at aircraft sites, It just seems to me that BAE have just found out there is going to be a drop in work, Typhoon work is steady for a couple of years even for the long lead time items (~18 months), the big question is whats prompted this now?
JSF budget tweaks?
Sorry man…
BAE reveals dramatic cut to Typhoon production rate
The Eurofighter programme’s annual production rate is to be slashed dramatically as partner nations Germany, Italy, Spain and the UK battle economic difficulties.
Details of the reduction emerged as BAE Systems announced plans to axe about 3,000 jobs at several of its sites around the UK, including its Eurofighter Typhoon final assembly site at Warton in Lancashire.
“The four partner nations in the Typhoon programme have agreed to slow production rates to help ease their budget pressures,” said BAE chief executive Ian King.
ADMK2Mr Digger,
You are presumably fully aware that much of what you say here can equally be applied to your and others comments on the F35 with regard to the capabilities of that particular aircraft.
Not that that in itself makes your comments here any less interesting or relevant. Albeit it does make some comments on the other subject absolutely laughable.
Sure, I don’t have F-35 RCS test data either. At least I acknowledge that we don’t have the data to make an accurate comparison and don’t resort to the, “I’ve been told by the pilots” type nonsense that seems to be accepted to a large degree around here.
It is laughable though how supporting evidence which is normally discredited on these forums becomes perfectly acceptable when it appears to support your personally favoured aircraft…
ADMK2There’s nothing magical about a canted antenna, it’s only meant to reflect hostile radar waves elsewhere, preferably not towards the emitter, and as everything else it’s an operational compromise.
For example, imagine a Rafale flying low, hugging the ground in a typical “strike” role. Where would such a canted antenna reflect waves ? Yeah, upwards… right where hostile fighters are likely to be. Good idea !
On the contrary, it makes a great deal of sense for a Raptor, which is not supposed to fly low, ever, normally. Incoming waves are going to be deflected right up into space.
Or at least that’s the picture I got…
LOL. Because front sector stealth is going to make a HUGE amount of difference when being “painted” from above…
I agree there is nothing “magical” about the canted design. But it demonstrates the gullibility of those who wax lyrical about the “RCS” reduction measures of the Euro-canards and who post fanciful figures on the Internet with support that amounts to nothing more than “wink wink, nudge nudge” I know better because a French, English, whatever pilot told me so. There are OBVIOUS features that reduce RCS missing from each of the Euro-Canards and yet some still wish to believe ridiculously low figures and tell everyone else how CERTAIN it is that they are “right”…
Fact is without RCS pole data, we are all shooting blindly. Same goes for chest-beating based on exercise results. A lot of people around here (when it happens to match their own beliefs at least) believe that the results of blue force against red force actually shows the capability of the respective aircraft involved…
As if they were some kind of free for all where you just do ANYTHING possible to get a kill and there are no rules besides physics which prevent you from doing certain things…
It’s absolutely laughable.
ADMK2You want to tell us the redued nose cone is actually the reason for a “20 times lower” RCS? Err no not really!?
Perhaps it’s that fixed, non-canted radar that contributes so much to the low RCS in the front sector?
Oh, wait…
:rolleyes:
ADMK2well my mistake, dont know why i remember them being a million, were they ever a million pounds? Anyway do you really want to fire off a $68000 missile just so you could use your guns?
What version of the apache is being sold to India? is it the D?
Why do they need to buy them now? Technology on the apache hasnt really moved in years and its going to be another 5-10 years for new helicopters with stealth and all sorts to come into production can not they not upgrade or lengthen the life of the aircraft till then?
India has been offered the AH-64D Block III Apache. The Block III offers a significant enhancement over earlier models, with new engines and a new rotor offering much better performance, especially in “high and hot” conditions as well as all digital systems, latest generation thermal sighting systems, upgraded Longbow radar and with the capability to remotely control UAV’s such as the Sky Warrior (US Army version of Predator) offering some interesting capabilities….
ADMK2UAE considered the 15 year old Spectra EW obsolete,
but you claim it is a hundred times more up to snuff then contemporary EW, right ?
So is Spectra a Klingon-French Joint Venture ?Awaiting the UAE
DSI special edition , August 2010With the general Alain SILVY
Deputy Chief Plans within the Staff of the Air Force.
Keeps up to date with the news doesn’t he? UAE ordered AEW&C in 2009…
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/UAE-Buys-Saabs-Erieye-AEWC-Aircraft-05951/
ADMK2Do you think just putting an AESA on the F 16 would change anything ?
Yes. The radar capability and situational awareness of the F-16 will be enormously improved over what it is now. Would I prefer simultaneously ground and air scanning, increased situational awareness, improved resistance to ECM and a greater degree of offensive EW capability over incrementally improved roll rates, AoA and acceleration? Damn right…
The MRCA Typhoon/Rafale will come with AESA.
I should hope so. A $10b fighter project shouldn’t have anything less, though I note it wasn’t so long ago that the Eurofighter consortium didn’t seem to think it such a big deal, until they had to have theirs ready of course…
The Typhoon has a bigger nose so bigger AESA than any F 16, its also stealthier than the F 16 and the added weight of the AESA will reduce F 16s performance further compared to the Typhoon.
Both SABR and RACR claim to be lighter weight than the APG-68 and look up what Have Glass means sometime. You might be surprised. Basically if you’re seeing an F-16 with a gold tinged canopy, you’re seeing an F-16 with LO mods…
It seems awfully convenient how important the size of your personally preferred fighter is…
For Typhoon which has the basic nose geometry to carry a reasonably large radar antenna, it’s desperately important, but for the Rafale, nah, doesn’t really matter. It’s all about the software and processing power in the back end and the small front on profile of the aircraft itself whch matters most…
With the Rafale it may have a smaller arrey but makes up for it with lower RCS, passive detection, tracking & attack using OSF/SPECTRA/MICA IR.
Hmm. What do you know? Thought it was all about who had the largest radar array a few minutes ago…
Rafle might well have the better IR missile (might) but then the radar guided BVR missile is the primary A2A weapon even for the Rafale, as evidenced by the Meteor integration. So which is it too be? Is radar size and long ranged missiles more imprtant or is passive tracking and IR guided weapons, which will still require mid-course guidance and updates from an actively transmitting data-link for any real BVR shots?
Now the array doesn’t matter and it’s all about LO RCS passive detection and the rest of it…
Both will get Metoer > any AMRAAM the F 16 may get throughout its lifetime.
Any AMRAAM? Better at what exactly? Yes the Meteor probably has a slightly improved NEZ than the AIM-120B/C5 AMRAAM variant that currently equips the Eurofighter, but of course superior models to that already exist and that missile doesn’t equip the PAF F-16’s anyway. C7 variants do and improvement over that operated by any Eurofighter user and of course further increasingly capable variants are in development.
Meteor itself hasn’t even finished it’s own testing. Improved AMRAAM variants are not very far behind Meteor, nor is the eventual replacement for the AMRAAM itself all that far away. However this is very much the “arms v armour” type debate and is predicated upon development timelines. Neither the Eurofighter or Rafale has a BVR missile as capable as the PAF C7 AMRAAM today. Meteor will best AMRAAM and then their next generation missile is likely to skip ahead of Meteor and so on.
However you clearly missed the point of the systems approach to warfare, so I doubt I’ll continue this chest beating exercise much further…
Last but not least they come with credible standoff weapons SCALP/Taurus which can destroy F 16 bases from a safe distance.
Ah, now you’re starting to think beyond 1 v 1 air to air combat and have come with another possible way to defeat an enemy air force. Excellent. Now we are starting to get somewhere. However what is it exactly that prevents an F-16 Block 52+ from launching a SLAM-ER, JASSM, JSOW etc from a safe distance and thus destroying the Eurofighter/Rafale base from a safe distance?
With the MRCA India is clearly getting a clear numerical and qualitative advantage 200 MRCA alone would be too hard for PAF to handle add to that about 270 MKIs and its scarey.
Scary for someone who thinks that warfare is all about who has the fastest and the mostest. It isn’t. It’s about who can concentrate the fastest and the mostest at the time and place needed. Who is allowed to employ the fastest and the mostest at the time needed, who can continue to generate the fastest and the mostest, when the realities of combat start to take their toll (and that doesn’t just mean destruction by kinetic effects, it refers to tempo of operations) and so on.
Attempting to break warfare down to which aircraft radar antenna has 1000 TR modules and which has 1200 and which missile can fly 100k’s and which can fly 120k’s shows the limitations in understanding of the writer, not the limitations in a particular force.
PAF will need to think beyond the JF-17/F-16/J-10 to offer a credible resistance, it may mean a change in the single engine doctrine and going for advanced J-11s / export model J 20s.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. Again you’re showing a lack of understanding about warfare as opposed to aircraft statistics. My advice wouod be to stick to winning the arguments about aircraft statistics… Thinking that a force structured and equipped as the PAF is doing (and as my name suggests, I’m not a local suffering from an overly developed sense of nationalistic pride in this debate) does not provide a “credible resistance” shows you truly are “out-gunned” in this matter…
ADMK2To say that there is parity between a Block 52+ F 16 & Rafale F3 or Typhoon T2B with AESA is absurd.
Block 60 may be
Show me where I said parity?
I said it’s close enough that the difference won’t matter when you look at warfare as being the systems event it is.
How can there be parity with AESA equipped Typhoon or Rafales though? Neither have an in-service AESA radar yet…
It may just be by the time that India is introducing it’s AESA equipped MMRCA fighters though, that Pakistan is upgrading the Block 52+ F-16’s with their own AESA radars…
There are options along that path…
ADMK2its looking grim for the jsf:
I disagree, so let’s look at the reality, shall we?
– the Netherlands are close to withdrawing from the programme
So close their parliament just confirmed the purchase of their second aircraft…
– Norway is questioning its involvement
Not sure what part of Norway is quetioning it, but the part that counts, ie: the Government of Norway, just ordered it’s first 4 aircraft.
– In Canada the government is accused of hiding the truth about the JSF
By an opposition looking desperately for an issue. The Government of Canada is firmly committed to JSF and says it has released all the bits of information it has about JSF, other than the classified bits, it is unable to reveal.
The Government of Canada by the way is well ahead in their local polls and appear likely to win sufficient votes to form a majority Government after the election, which will confirm Canada’s choice of JSF.
– the UK is continuing to cut back its armed forces
True enough and despite savage cuts, has confirmed the future acquisition of JSF for both the RAF and RN.Only the model has changed, though the numbers have dropped, the acquisition hasn’t been canceled.
– and most importantly, the US has to cut government expenses by massive amounts of money and what is an easier victime that a faulty programme like JSF
It does, but it isn’t in Defence that the USG is going to dig the US out of the financial hole it’s got itself into. JSF won’t be significantly touched by USG spending cuts.
add to that a global financial crisis and we are ready for the final implosion
GFC was sooo 2009 according to the Economists and we are dealing with the after effects, but the worlds economies are going in rather the opposite direction from implosion at the current time…
ADMK2Typhoon is handicapped by the AMRAAM I think. Also if Rafale is selected it should reduce the cost of the Mirage 2000 ugprade.
Typhoon with AMRAAM and IRIS-T/ASRAAM is handicapped against a Rafale with MICA? Not sure I see why exactly…
Capability-wise I fail to see why and end-user wise I hardly see it either. India has chosen US Missile systems before, including Harpoon Block II ASM’s and Javelin ATGW’s, is evaluating Hellfire from all reports and as AMRAAM was the primary ATA weapon (at the time of entering the contest) for 4 of the 6 entrants in MMRCA, I’m sure India doesn’t have a huge problem with it…
Besides a replacement for both MICA and AMRAAM is in the works for both platforms and happens to be the same weapon…
ADMK2since IAF has short listed the Typhoid and Raphael
what can Pakistan do to counter the potential of either of these two aircraft being acquired? 🙁
Continue to build it’s top end IADS system support by AEW&C, strong networking and SAM capabilities, along with good fighter capability in F-16 Block 52+ and continue developmental efforts with JF-17 and support their endurance through air to air refuelling.
The difference between a Block 52+ F-16 and a Rafale or a Eurofighter is so small, that it will only effect nationalistic egos. The operational reality won’t be significantly different.
If Pakistan can afford it, continued purchases of Block 52+ F-16 and on-going development of JF-17 is likely to see their defence needs met very handsomely.
Buying a few “modern” fighters to “keep up with the joneses” is a fanboi solution to a problem. Not a professional defence response…
ADMK2After reading that three questions come to mind:
1. Why did they choose to (try to) develope two engined in the first place? What was the logic behin that? Political considerations?
Yep. GE & RR saw the opportunity for billions of dollars worth of work and went to work getting their political support in US Congress to fund a second engine.
Their “lure” to get this to fly was supposedly the increased competition and reduce price that “competing” engine manufacturers would conduct to win future contracts.
Unfortunately you have to conveniently forget about the many billions of dollars it takes in the first place to build an engine like this AND the cost of the tooling and infrastructure to support 2 different engines…
US DoD never forgot all that stuff though…
2. What will become of the engine now? It seems to be not so far from getting finished sooner rather than later. But then what?
Unless they achieve another source of funding for the engine, most likely it will go nowhere. That engine is too big to fit into any other single engined fighter and far too big to fit into twin engine fighters and besides which GE/RR aren’t willing to self-fund the USD$3b needed to finish the development anyway. Can’t see anyone else being willing to at the current time…
How close can it be to finishing, when it STILL requires USD$3b in funding to complete?
3. R&Rs stake in the F-136 was rather high IIRC. Will they be offered to do some work on the original engine as compensation, or have they simply bought the farm here?
They still have significant involvement in the development of the lift fan and related gearbox etc.
GE doesn’t though and now they are crying poor and dropping hints that this decision might put them out of the fighter engine business… Sounds like bad news for the F414 and F110 engine families, eh?
I mean GE currently has contracts for new builds of 700+ engine orders for F414, F110-132 engines and that is without any further orders of F-15’s, F-16’s and F/A-18E/F’s, of which there is potential for significant quantities of each…
If Super Hornet or F-16 were to jag the MMRCA contract, then GE’s order book would be looking at more than 1000 engines even without any JSF work.
The poor dears. One wonders how they can survive with “only” 1000+ engine orders…
I’m sure Eurojet or Snecma would be over the moon if they had current orders for even half that amount, not dropping threats that they might be out of business…
ADMK2It’s a bit late going stealthy once they’ve already spotted you 😎
Not really. Their weapons are still going to have to engage you. LO helps in every part of the detect, track, engage model not simply the “detect” phase…
Also, you must have missed the standoff weapons bit…
😎
ADMK2Not “has” but “will have”. Nitpicky I know, but the thing isnt in service yet.:D
So? Would you care to assess the LO properties of say, AF-3 in comparision to any current in-service jet (besides F-22A)?
Do you think AF-3 would compare positively or negatively?
ADMK2I’d say I have a healthy skepticism of the program but not to that level.
I just think it’s absurd to talk about the F-35 carrying external loads. Are we really going to see F-35s on CAP with 10 AMRAAMs? I expect the F-35’s external stations will see more use than the B-1’s – in places like Afghanistan or Libya where the F-35 isn’t needed in the first place – but not that much more.
It’s not absurd. The F-35 is being designed just like the F-22 to eject the pylon when needed to regain full level stealth, with this in mind I can see external weapons being carried quite regularly.
The larger standoff weapons types (JASSM, Storm Shadow, Tauras, HARM/AARGM etc) aren’t going to fit internally so I can definitely see them carried externally on occasion.
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