By 2015 PAK-FA project would take precedence over any other project. MIG-31 will start retiring.

Of course that it will start retiring, because it needs to be retired at year 2020. But, the latest to retire are always most-modern ones, and that ones could get new technology.

If they start-full scale upgrade of the MiG-31 in years 2008-2010, and they have around 150-200 active aircraft, how much would it take to upgrade that number? At 2015, there should still be left a couple to upgrade, and those could get new engines, while ones that were upgraded 5-7 years ago go slowly into retirement.

I see very little interest in a Tu22M or Tu160 modified as a fighter. For the same price you’d probably get a few fighters like Rafale, or Su, or Eurofighter which would cover a much wider area, and which wouldn’t make such a nice juicy target with too big an RCS for today’s battlefield.

Fighter does not equal interceptor. And nor Rafale, nor Sukhoi, nor Eurofighter can even imagine to cover 50% of the Tu-22M3/160 range without refueling. None of those aircraft can even come close to the Tu-22M3/160 payload.

As i already said, interceptor doesn’t have to be manueverable, it just needs to be fast. It fires long-range missiles. If those miss, it will fire again. If those miss, it will fire again. If those miss, and if it came close to the aircraft, 10-15 kilometers before WVR phase, it will just turn away and run. Interceptors are fast, uncatchable for fighters at the moment. There is nothing on this planet that could catch MiG-31 in tailchase.

There are few fighter sized planes operational today that could burn around for any great distance at mach 2 or faster. The Mig-31 and the Mig-25 are the only ones in or near operation today. The only operational supersonic bombers are the F-111/F-15 which tend to penetrate at low level around mach 1.2 and although on paper might reach mach 2 plus at high altitudes it is very unlikely they actually would for any great distance… the other two operational supersonic bombers would be the B-1B and the Tu-160 and Tu-22M3.

Look at the section above. If it needed to run, it wouldn’t have enough speed. If it failed to destroy F-22 or F-15, and it came to 30 kilometers range, it better run. If F-22 can push it to Mach 2.3 with weapons load, it’s gonna take him exactly 6 minutes to reach the interceptor. It’ll take him 4 minutes to get into AIM-9X solution, and maybe minute and half to get into AIM-120 solution.

Agreed, but the Tu-160P could not offer better speed.

Hmm…i thought that new engines were planned for Tu-160P, eg. new variant that would render Blackjack Mach >2 capable?

I don’t think that Soviets would replace Mach 2.83 (Mach 3 emergency) capable interceptors with Mach 2 ones…

MIG were no doubt working on such a system for the Mig-1.42/1.44… a few tweeks and size adjustments…

I don’t think that size adjustments would even be necessary. MiG-1.42/1.44 is comparable to MiG-31 in size.

Actually the Aussies could offer to joint develop an interceptor model of the backfire… and any operational use of their strike backfires could have interceptor escort all the way to target and back… both could have inflight refuelling reinstated easily.
Of course the Aussies are too infatuated with US power to even consider it.

Re-read your last line 😉

Ahhh, that is the one… just google it. Venik will have pages on it no doubt. The little that was talked about this bird will probably mean that most sources will be similar anyway.

I’m bit sceptical about Venik’s site. When i saw the info about NATO air losses over Serbian skies, i fell off the chair.

FYI, known as Serbo-Croat in the West, though I have also seen it called Croato-Serb

You don’t have to “FYI” me, because i live there 🙂

Actually, Croatian and Serbian language are 99% same. In Yugoslav times, Croatian was called Croato-Serb, and Serbian was called Serbo-Croatian. Both languages, as well as Slovenian and Macedonian were official.

Books published in Croatia were on Croato-Serb, eg. Croatian, and ones published in Serbia were on Serbo-Croatian, eg. Serbian. Those pharses were invented a lot before SFRY, to indicate the similarities between two languages, and to point out that Croatians and Serbs can talk, each with his language, and still understand eachother 99.9%.

The difference is minimal. I live in Dalmatia, i speak primarily Dalmatian dialect, i can understand Serbs better, than people who are speaking Zagreb-based dialects. Differences are less than those between British English and American English.

indeed carrying our flag not yugoslavian or of any kind

They were not carrying our flag. They were carrying NDH flag, same three colors, but the coat of arms has a first white field. Croatian coat of arms has first field red, and has a 5-province crown on top. NDH flag also features an U insignia in top left corner, to indicate that the whole country was about Ustashe regime, which also used German Swastikas, iron crosses, etc.

That’s a nice thing, that ustashe developed their own flag, to discriminate them from original Croatian insignia, and to bond them tighter to Hitler’s regime. Thus, there is no real question to “where their loyalties were”.

Its my choice to choose this name(its something called democracy)

Democracy doesn’t exist. Or, not in shape you’re refering to. Can i wave an Nazi flag and scream kill all Jews on the main city square? No, i can’t, i’ll end up in jail in matter of minutes. Why did i end there, when i have an democratic right to have my opinion and express it freely? Go figure…

I offerd to change my nick, so STF. i had enough of ure complaining.

Change it.

Which most people know have sympathy towards yugoslavia

I have sympathies towards Yugoslavia. It bonded peoples together, it raised counties on every aspect…technological, industrial, educational. It was a world-reckgoned country, and Yugoslavia together with Partisan movement set foundations for modern Croatia.

Please refer to Croatian constitution, and see parts refering to WW2.

By the way, Yugoslavia ceised to exist in 1990, after that the so-called Yugoslav heads and Yugoslav people’s army heads were Serb nationalist who worked together for greater Serbia goal.

and also I found intresting the claim that RBS-15 would be only 5% better than antiqueted P-15?? Do you have anything to base this, or was it just something you pulled out of the hat…

SS-N-2 has a maximum range of 80 kilometers, RBS-15 we use has twice that range. However, lack of radar coverage on our main combat ships, and the geographical definition of our coastline brings that range down to exacly 80 kilometers. Croatian Navy never fired RBS-15 missiles at a range more than 65-70 kilometers.

When the complete coast surveilance system goes operational, then we’ll be able to use RBS-15 at it’s full capacity, both launched from sea, and from mobile shore launchers. Because missiles will get targeting information from the central system, comprimised of many sensors, net-centric in arhitecture, all components controlled from an single control room in Zagreb.

Right now, SS-N-2 would be exactly of same benefit as RBS-15, for us, given that situation. And i previously stated, VPBR class ships could be easily refitted to use RBS-15.

Well thougth Im a big fan of the 1159 class (and its Yugoslavian sibblings) I would say, let the old girls rust in peace. They have little to use in modern field outside complete rebuilding, and I would think that navy that is ready to go on for ship class combatants, better solution would be invest into new, state of the art desing like MEKO A100 or Russian pr. 20380. In longer term they will pay themselves back with longer service life and more cost-effective maintanace expenses…

The thing is, you can’t even contemplate how our politics system works like. It’s all about personal interests, and stuff like that. State’s common goals do not apply here.

I just wanted to point out, it’s better to get some VPBR’s cheaply right now, because who knows what will happen to the corvette project. If you don’t believe my pesimism, just check out how did the Croatian MiG-21 modernization occur, and how armored personnel carriers purchase went. You’ll understand then.

Indeed. That is largely why I suggested an interceptor based on the Tu-22M3, perhaps a Tu-22M4P or something. The multiple ejector racks normally fitted to the area beneath the intakes and the main wing pylons where the Kh series missiles are carried could be adapted to carry R-37 type missiles and R-77M type missiles in tandem triples, or perhaps a new design that allowed three weapons to be carried side by side but all still catapaulted downwards at launch by an arm on the launch pylon. This would maximise the number of missiles carried and with them carried in tandem to reduce drag a little. The R-77 could also be used if the folding rear fins deploy after launch which would make them more compact for carriage.

Tu-22M based design would be realistic. As more Tu-160 bombers are produced, more Tu-22M airframes could be preconfigured for interception role. Range and ordinance capacity are excellent, the only thing i’m sceptical about is Mach 2 maximum speed. Interceptors should be able to pursuit and outrun fighter aircrafts, and bombers. MiG-31’s M2.83 does it, but i’m not sure that Tu-22M’s maximum speed would do.

Unless you’re suggesting that Backfire gets new engines for the new role. That could draw some structural changes too, and in the end, might come quite expensive…

Indeed much of these things are being incorporated to the Tu-160s anyway (ie new radar (though not optimised for air to air intercept), computers, EW etc).

Yes, i know. Too bad, that Russian government can’t afford a project like that. With not-so-big changes to avionics package, Tu-160 would be an excellent interceptor. Looks like the only obstacle here, is the ratio of Tu-160 airframe and engine production. Quite low. The modernization will drain additional money, as well.

As SOC mentioned there are a few designs floating around as proposals (ie genuine ones… not just fan art like the PAK-FA drawings). Perhaps the Sukhoi proposed replacement for the Tu-22 and Su-24 etc etc (Su-60 or something), might be an option… long range semi stealthy strike aircraft with heavy bomb payload, plus interceptor model with slightly different avionics and large missile payload and more fuel to cruise around on. (AAMs weighing less than bombs generally means large bomb capacity is superflous to interceptor and more fuel would be more use to an interceptor).

I would very much appreciate, if you could point me to some sites which have information regarding those projects.

And, isn’t the Su-24 replacement Su-34? Long range, reduced front RCS, heavy payload, could get supercruise with new AL-41F. The Fullback, as-is, has a nice AA capability, too.

True, but they are not starting from scratch. They probably have a complete upgrade available but costs might make it not an option right now. Partial upgrades of certain components can improve performance for less cost but this often leads compatibility issues and interface problems that might make a complete redesign more attractive.

Indeed, but they aren’t starting from scratch, because they used plans for M version and BM version. You see my point there – as you said, partial upgrades could improve performance, but in a complex system such as MiG-31, compatibility issues are bound to arise. That’s why this upgrade needs to be complete, starting from radar, fire control system, optronics, electronics warfare package, navigation and communication systems. MiG-31 needs “sensory fusion”, as Americans like to call that technique. It has it already, but not at the F-22/Su-35BM/MiG-35 level. Hooking up the radar control DSP with a GFLOPS class speed to sensory fusion system, together with some arhaic ’80 designed integrated chip used for IRST operations into the same system…looks like Croatian Telecom which have cutting-edge ODN conjuctors together with ancient analogue PTSN centrals on the same network.

Needless to say, Telecom is not working as it should.

Agreed. It might be that many of the systems from the Mig-29M2 could be directly transfered or scaled up to fit, but then there will likely also be systems and bits and pieces that were supposed to go in Migs PAK-FA prototype that might also be and option (being too big to fit in the Mig-29M2 or overkill in cost and performance…).

Well, the technology from MiG-29M2 is incorporated into MiG-35, right? New MiG-31 would be happy with it’s optronics, cockpits system and electronics warfare package.

There are a lot of projects, whom might contribute to MiG-31 upgrade. However, we must limit the discussion onto finished, or soon-to-be-finished ones. Those would be MiG-35 (inherited from MiG-29M/M2 and MiG-29OVT), and Su-35BM (inherited from Su-27M/37 and Su-30MK/MK2).

And stuff in those two is good enough for the next MiG-31. The most important things, radar systems, are both already better than original Zaslon, given the capacity of both NIIP and NIIR to come up with new stuff fast, i’m pretty much confident that new Foxhound will have brutally powerful, most powerful radar for the fighter, ATM of it’s first flight. Like the original MiG-31 had.

Not thinking of F-22s, there will be few enough of those coming over the pole, thinking more of B-2s and stealthy cruise missiles flying low and fast over the tundra. Would aid in using medium range R-77Ms if they come in IIR versions.

Quite agree, but adding air to ground capability adds flexibility, but having IR sensors does the same. Also if the target is something like the SR-71 or some new hypersonic or mach 2.4 like bomber they keep talking about (A Mig-25RB but with about 4 times the range) then IR sensors would be useful. Not so useful for Malaysia in a monsoon, but at night over the frozen wastes of Siberia…

Don’t get me wrong, i just love optronic systems. I only said that MiG-31 should rely on it’s radar in first place. Having IRST is wonderful, because you have another type of sensor, which is best when radar is worse (rear aspect), and vice versa. Those two combine greatly.

And would aid very much in counter-bomber/cruise missile operation. For bombers, they could be attacked without warning, but for cruise missiles…i’m not sure. They won’t turn away and run if you point your radar at ’em 😉 Stealthy or not, radar could get contact before optronics do…unless the specified optronics work in both IR and UV bands.

The other consideration is that Saturn tends to partner with Sukhoi rather than Mig, but then things have certainly changed… from need rather than from choice.

Isn’t that the whole point of UABC? So that the big number of Russian OKB’s work closely together, thus there should be no “camps” around (like Sukhoi-Saturn-Tikhomirov-Leninets vs. MiG-Soloviev-Phazotron-NII Argon).

If we look at what the makers of the D-30F-6 did to the basic engine to convert it to the PS-90A, they greatly increased the cost of the engine but improved it in every other respect including thrust and fuel consumption. Obviously slapping some PS-90As straight into a Mig-31 is probably not an option but development work has certainly been applied to the engine. A cheaper upgrade to improve the engine resulted in a more modest upgrade though the engine was rather less expensive than a PS-90A.

Doesn’t have to be PS-90A. Just a D-30F-6 production line opened again, new engines, new technology process, with expirience gained on PS-90A project.

I agree, but I think for what they want a Mig-31M and a Tu-22M3 to replace their F-18s and F-111s respectively would be a good idea

Wouldn’t be better to get Fullbacks to replace Aardvarks?

I dont think MIG-31 will get a different engine. Su-34/PAK-FA/Su-27SMs will share engines from same technical base. so no separate development costs.

That’s why i said, last upgrade batches could get new engines. If we take for granted that MiG-31 would be active to 2020, those batches would be somewhere around 2015.

And in that future years, it could be realistic to get funding for new engines, or some heavy D-30F-6 modernization/upgrade program.

US is spending $900B on weopons programs but most of them are over budget. 1/3 is JSF. I dont think PAK-FA is that big in overall Russian defence procurement. At most 5% of overall weopons programs.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php…5546&C=america

Agreed, but you must keep in mind how much of the overall military budget is going into VVS. That information is the only relevant one. As far as i know, government funds these VVS stuff : White Swan production, and modernization, Fullback production, PAK-FA development, Flanker upgrade program, Fencer upgrade program. I only mentioned most important regarding fixed-wing aircraft. NIIP, NIIR, and Leninets also get money for sensory and computer systems. Saturn gets funded too, for AL-41F(x). Now add stuff for rotary aircraft, and for ground-based support systems.

PAK-FA might be 5%, but all i stated up there gets to 25-30%. Only for VVS. Ground forces, space and strategic missile forces, navy, counts for other 70-75%. From my point of view, there is not much financial space for additional new projects.

yeah, pretty much, but adapted to the realities that there aren’t enough Tu-160 bombers let alone spare airframes for other platforms.

That’s pretty much why Tu-160P never came to life. SU collapsed, and whole aerospace industry was left to rust. Only most important projects had limited funding in early-mid ’90s. And that does not include expensive projects like Tu-160P.

The project as whole is not complex. New radar and FCS, additional communication computers, and an latest EW suite available to VVS. That’s about it. Rotary launcher should be able to cope with R-33/R-37/R-37M/KS-172S-1 as-is. However, as you mentioned, there aren’t enough “normal” Tu-160. Tu-160P would need boosted airframe production. At the moment, that’s out of budget limits, but VVS will need to replace whole Foxhound fleet somewhere around 2020, thus something-alike Tu-160P would be logical (if they don’t go for new aircraft design).

If they go for that new design, we’ll hear about it in next two years. Because, to reach IOC at approx 2020, project such as strategic superinterceptor needs to be started at least ten years before that date.

Indeed, and probably also reduce costs… I mean any computer from the early 1980s is going to be a pain to maintain and support, replacing systems with newer bits will improve performance and probably reduce maintainence and weight at the same time.

Regarding computer system, IMHO MiG-31 is the most sophisticated 4th gen aircraft. Not refering to raw processing power, rather in terms complexity. It’s a flying ship, airspace controller.

Transferring all electronic equipement to modular design with DSPs, standardized data busses, etc, will require an decent amount of time. Who knows what’s the computing arhitecture of the original MiG-31…Argon could be seen as primitive DSP, but inside MiG-31 there’s a huge data bus, and there are tons of components that require processing power just in cockpit systems.

If i were chosen to upgrade the computers, i would ditch the whole thing, and start planning the new system from scratch. Even stuff on MiG-31M could be seen as “obsolete” in terms of processing power and functionality, compared to what Russian OKB’s can produce right now.

But likely needed to improve export chances… perhaps Iran would like to replace the F-14s…

It will be done. For sure. MiG-31BM has AGM capability, however, retains the Zaslon radar. But, new radar processors and the increase of processing speed gave it AG capability. New radar will have good AG, for sure. That grants radar AGM’s. MiG-31’s optronic module could be refitted with laser designator.

For last, but not the least, new MiG-31 upgrade will get a new EW suite, that means L175M, or a system built around it. As i understand, L175M is destined to replace old Beriyoza modules, on the fleet-level. L175M grants excellent antiradiation ability, for both aerial and ground based threats.

Iran, Syria, and China had plans about the Foxhound. Iran was interested in MiG-31M, don’t know why the talks did not occur. China went for Su-30MKK instead, and Syria can’t afford it.

Indeed, some things they don’t already have will be on the way for later designs so if they are developing these things already, why not add them when they become viable. Adding a new electro optical system might be a good idea for spotting stealth aircraft.

I don’t think it would be good to use IRST on MiG-31 to catch stealth targets. Even if your target has sensors powered down, you’ll need to get close to 40 km range to detect it. That’s quite close for the MiG-31.

Having IRST is great, because you have another sensor type on board. Regarding stealth targets, Tikhomirov Irbis-E can locate 0.01m2 RCS 90 km away. Like i already said – if that’s the Irbis-E, wonder what could be fitted on the Foxhound. 1.5, two times more powerful system. Sovoliev plant has enough power…

That thing up his nose should be the main thing to detect stealth. Stealth is not just about your RCS, it’s about the radar that the other guy has, too.

Indeed. Perhaps the application of new avionics and perhaps changes to the engines to reduce operational costs might also be in order. It was certainly one of the selling points of the Mig-29SMT upgrade and once they found one customer more customers appeared. Perhaps the export of the Mig-31 just requires that one first customer… Perhaps if Australia can’t afford F-22s

Reproducing the original D-30F-6 with new materials and new production tehniques would achieve the goal. But, the question is, does Russia have enough resources for opening the production line again? Don’t think so, they are into a lot of projects already – PAK-FA, Su-35BM, Su-34, Tu-160, that’s just concerning state-sponsored fixedwing aircraft, consider rotaries and other “non-flying” assets that VVS needs, too.

Saturn’s AL-41F will have same thrust as D-30F-6, however, they are configured for dry supercruise, D-30F-6 for wet supercruise. I’m not sure how would the Foxhound behave if it were powered by AL-41 family, or what kind of modification should be done to basic AL-41 design for Foxhound to achieve same characteristics as it has with D-30F-6.

IMHO, new MiG-31 upgrade will retain D-30F-6. Maybe last upgrade batches get some other engines, but we’ll wait for decent amount of time before that happens.

Regarding RAAF, i don’t think they’ll go for Russian aircraft.

So, no new batterys and an overhaul and selling it? Weird…
That’s just wrong… Idiotic…

There’s a complete “overhaul” of our army going on…new fighters for the airforce, modernization of the ground forces, and complete navy modernization. Parallel work consists of reshaping the army from conscript based to professional/reserve based, reconfiguration of teritorrial assets, and on…all that requires a lot of time and resources.

“Velebit” is unique because of it’s status. Armed Forces are grouped of Ground Troops, Naval Foces, Air Force, and something called “Velebit submarine team”. Since it’s the only sub avaiable to Navy, without proper submarine support structures and equipement in our naval bases, Velebit requires a whole substructure just for itself. Given that, it’s quite expensive to maintain, and that’s why it’s “offline” right now.

And without that proper infrastructure, any kind of modernization would cost way beyond budget limits. On the other hand, nobody would buy Velebit as-is, without prior modernization (like HRZ is trying to sell Mi-24 squadron in as-is condition).

Everything being said, it’s best just to ditch it off. It has no valuable military role, and to bring it up to true survey / semi-civilian level is just too damn expensive. Same reason why we don’t fly G-2 and G-4 Galebs, small numbers. Velebit is the only one.

Not a new idea, but I prefer our own domestic design for several resons(no helo pad, ships are in a bad shape, alot of equipment would have to be replaced…). I have my reservations to using Konis/Kotors as patrol ships, not that they are bad ships, just maybe not really suited for the task. Alot of work would have to be done to bring them to modern standards, especially the Konis. Kotors are somewhat better, but I’ve heard they are going to be sold anyway to Egypt(?).

I think you confused designations a bit 😉 VPBR is a ship-class based on Soviet Koni class. Hence, simplified, VPBR equals Koni. Kotor is a ship of VPBR class, like Split (VPBR-33, and VPBR-31). VPBR stands for “veliki patrolni brod”, for those that do not speak croatian/serbian/bosnian or whatever you call these language, that stands for “big patrol ship”.

The thing is…Montenegro could sell them at a very very cheap price. As you know, our current flag-boats, the RTOP class, has a quite nice firepower but lacks range and autonomy. In Yugoslav Navy times, RTOP (then Koncar-class) was used in a second line of operation. First line of operation belonged to VPBR.

Those two VPBR’s could furfil the role of territorial sea border patrol, where the RTOP lacks autonomy. Current situation can be paralleled to those of Serbian Air Force in late ninetees. If we disregard bad condition of their MiG-29A, those MiG-29A wouldn’t make much sense either, because they were operated as air superiority/interceptor aircraft. That role goes to Su-27, where MiG-29 is used for first-line battlefield defense operations, in conjuction with Su-27 aerial superiority operations. Therefore, our Navy lacks a piece of the puzzle.

That’s a bad situation…the new corvette design will furfil all roles just fine, but who knows what could happen in meantime. VPBR would be a nice stop-gap measure. We can choose between two stop-gap measures : introduce a bigger ship to the fleet, or try to modernize current RTOP class missile corvettes, to extend autonomy and their field of ops. The latter is quite questionable, as we can yet again paralelize with MiG-29A. That aircraft was introduced as an stop gap measure between current MiG-21 fleet and the 4+ generation multirole figher project, “Novi Avion”. If all went well, NA would fly the skies, and that would be it. But, YU dissolved, Serbia unlegaly took over all MiG-29s, and when war struct them in late ninetees, that stop-gap measure prove itself wrong.

We could be left without the funding for the new corvette, and with upgraded RTOP’s that still don’t do the modern job right. An RTOP and VPBR combination won’t be modern, but it will be up to the job.

Zare, any insider news about these corvettes from the officers at Lora?

Not currently. In Armed Forces modernization program that was adopted by our parliament, it’s stated just like “new multirole patrol ship”. What kind, what origin – unstated.

The future of the naval base Lora is uncertain – NATO wants it as it’s supply base, and recent news said that over 50% of territorial Lora asset will be passed on to Split authorities for public use; educational and turistical complexes, big marina for yachts and cruisers, stuff like that.

It’ll go as everything goes in Croatia politics – a lot of influences from a lot of sides, each participant wants to get it’s piece of the cake. It saddens me that the nation is united over the Euro 2012 campaign, we all want it, everyone works for the common goal and puts it’s interests aside, without any kind of malversations, yet we can anticipate another “muddy works”, thefts and politicism when it comes to our strategic assets.

The koni and kotors are way to old, this corvette alone can destroy it lol

Look, i’ll do a little lesson for you; VPBR has same type of anti-surface and anti-naval armament as RTOP and future corvette. That means guns, and guided missiles. If we introduce VPBR into our Navy, missile batteries and subsequent systems will be converted from Soviet SS-N-2 to Swedish RBS-15, in a matter of short time, just as we did when we commisioned both first RTOP at a glance of war in 1991 (Koncar class was destined to carry SS-N-2).

VPBR carries helluva more missiles than RTOP or that future corvette. It’s bridge construction is higher, and that means more radar coverage. It has more powerful guns, and it has torpedo launchers, mining capability and Strela AA missile system.

Let’s just say that i don’t find SS-N-2 more than 5% inferior to our fielded RBS-15 missiles.

VPBR is old; but the timespan, roles, systems and armament between VPBR and the new corvette is something like between new Yak-130 and baseline Su-27. Which one would be sucesfull in 1-on-1 aerial engagement?

P.S. Im no idiot i belive what i belive, its not ure buisness first of all. They are the ones that actually fought for croatia juring the second world war excluding Pavelic(traitor) and yes i know what crimes they did But enough said about history, and my nick. Stop trying to ruin this thread people

Nobody is ruining this thread. But the participants will enter the “ustasa” keyword on the google, they’ll see the historical facts about that movement, and they’ll come up with a bad reputation for our country, just because you are glorifying our forces under that nickname.

Listen, those naval forces you’re so proud of, are stationed and headquatered in a certain city called Split. Do you have any slightest idea what ustase did to this city? They sold it to Mussolini, to Italian Fascist terror. Then, the German SS troops came, before true patriots, Dalmatian partisans, liberated it.

Ustase found a state called NDH, which was a nazi-puppet quisling country. NDH formed an detention camp called Jasenovac, which was unique in a way; it was the only nazi detention camp in world, not controlled by nazis. NDH troops were the last ones to surrender at the Battle of Stalingrad. That says it all, how much they were into nazistic stuff, and how much they liked fighting for Hitlers ideas.

Velebit is going into srcap metal. That’s a first-hand information from officer stationed at naval base Lora.

What we should really do, is get some of those VPBR Koni’s from Montenegro. And “ustasa”, you’re an idiot to use that nick.

That’s why i don’t prefer over-the-shoulder launches. Missile needs to be in LOAL mode, and that’s a great way to shoot your own wingman in a dense enviroment.

Better way is to use rear-facing launches, and have a rear-facing IRST, or a TWS system.