Originally posted by mixtec
No, it was a problem with workers rights. The fuedal system did last admidedly very late into the 1800s, but by the time of czar Nicolas russia had become well industrialized. Anarchists and the Decembrists played a part in the evolution of communism.

Alright, I’ll have to look into that, but thanks for pointing it out. But regardless, Marx’s and Engel’s theories were in the mid 1800’s and Western Europe was in a more advance stage of capitalism than in comparison with the Russian empire at the time and I do believe that Stalin did skip a stage in the evolution of communism and forcing the progress required via soldiers, purges, etc.

but wasn’t Russia at the time, had conflict between the Serfs and the elite which caused them to support Lenin?

Originally posted by Vortex
And that’s why China and the Soviets were in a bitter fight over the “true” Communism? Please, the point isn’t about democracy in the name itself but everything that follows. It’s not surprising to find Chinese accepting capitalism afterall in the history of the world a huge sector of Chinese were merchants. But, Capitalism doesn’t 100% equal democracy as China amply demonstrates. Like i said, if you’re so proud of China, go to Beijing, openly protest against the government and then you’ll have a true taste of what PRACTICAl communism is.

Geez, i’m discussing with TTP on how China’s current political system works and it’s economy, then you attack me as a person who’s “so proud” on China’s government. Do YOU know how the history of China’s policies and government? Or even China’s current policies? I’m simply stating what is going on and you attack me. There are many who attack a country, society, or system with out even knowing much about it.

the Sino-Soviet split was due to a variety of reasosn but the ONE major reason that caused it was due to Mao shelling Taiwan. The reason why Khruschev was furious was due to that Mao did not inform the USSR that the PRC was going to attack Taiwan. The implications of attacking Taiwan had the posibility of enlargening the conflict to draw in the US, which would then require the USSR to take some kind of stance. Khruschev also feared that the shelling of Taiwan would open up the Korean war (which was and is still inconclusive).

Also you’ve yet to address what communism is..and many tend to associate USSR and Mao era PRC policies which was authoritarian, not communism.

What Marx defined Communism was the final step in the evolution of history.

he stated that through out history there was a thesis and anti thesis.

in Anceint times it was Master and Slave.. eventualy the two would conflict and the slaves would overthrow their numerically inferior masters.. then this society involves to

Medival times..where it is Lord and Serfs.. eventually there would be conflict between the two and the Serfs would overthrow the masters

this leads to Modern times (Captialism), where it is Bourgeousies (the Land owners) and the Proletariat (the working class), Marx predicted that the working class would be discontent with the land owners, conflict would ensue and the land owners would be overthrown. This then leads to socialism, and then communism.

and Marx’s theory was almost right, as the US went through all those stages in it’s history, and in 1929, the great depression left a large rich elite, and a mass poor populace and socialist parties were becomming popular. And if it wasn’t for FDR and the New Deal, the US might’ve became a socialist country! FDR saved capitalism from itself by creating a large middle class which provided economic stability and more active government role in creating jobs and trade regulations.

As for Stalin… the Russian empire was still coming fresh out of the Lord and Serf society and undergoing revolution. However Stalin decided to skip the Capitalism phase (but Marx clearly stated a country HAD to go through that phase), and go towards socialism and communism. He used brute force to make people skip this phase, and stalin’s methods were applied by other communist leaders.. Marx definitely did not imagine Russia, Cuba, or China, etc to be the centers of Communism, he intended Britain, Germany and France to be communist! Also FDR’s New Deal also proved Marx’s theory wrong as Marx did not expect the effects of a large middle class, and Marx undermined the role of Nationalism.

As for the PRC.. I will tell you that it’s had a “clumsy” role in communism..and as I stated.. Mao was no politician and his policies really screwed China up.. he would on and off reverse policies..

if you studied anything about China, there was an event in the 60’s called the Hundred Flowers Campaign where Mao gave free speech, etc. This resulted in mass complaints so he reversed it, arrested those people, etc. Only to sooon later switch back to free speech, etc.. released those people..and then to switch back to controlling it. Much of the critics of China have been pointing to this era..and quite honestly it was very horrid. But nowadays, the reformers have lightened up many regulations. Deng didn’t only open up cities to capitalism, but he reduced many of the regulations on rights, such speech, religion etc. Although there are still some regulations on “radical” political views, and religion and beliefs that are political.
And yes, I saw demonstrations in Beijing, two actually.. one was Hui (Muslims) protesting (dont know what about), and there were Fur protestors who were nude in -20C weather…seriously

I’m proud to be an American, and I do research on Euro-Asian policies and histories, but do not tell me where to live, especially when I was simply telling how China’s policies are, and to dispel the wrong impressions of the PRC.

what exactly is world class supposed to be? China’s current pluralist economy system has made them the 2nd largest economy. And obviously you haven’t been to China or seen China..

The income gap is rather large, if you went to Beijing you can find ALOT of people driving Volkswagens, dressing in fancy clothes and living their lives in your normal western style living.

Now let me tell you something about China that you don’t see in the west. China has the world’s LARGEST migrant work force. About 10% which is like 150 million or so. These Migrant workers are usualy people from the countryside who move around city to city, province to province looking for work. These countryside people either hate farm life or prefer to live in the city, thus they move around. The problem is the country side people don’t have the skills or etc as say some one from the coastal cities, and it is these migrant workers that usually work those really low paying jobs and in sweat shops. When it comes to cheap labor, private companies don’t hire the educated people or urban people.. they hire the migrant workers! Private companies don’t even hire those laid off urban people from state factories either! So how does this benefit? Well Private companies get to save money, and those migrant workers, who probably don’t have any skills to do anything else, get a job. When I was in Beijing, I noticed there were elevator girls in every elevator there, simply pushing the buttons for you, and that was their jobs and made only about 200 rmb a year. I felt sorry for them at first..but I learned that they’re all migrant workers from the countryside, and this is the best job they can get and they get to escape working in the farms and live in the city.

And although the percentage of urban people is smaller than that of the rural people, (I don’t know what the percentage is, but let’s just give it a low number and say urban people make up 10% of China), that’s 120 million people right there! which is more than every European countrie’s population bar Russia.

And I don’t know if you read my last post, but under state run factories, job uncertainty did not exist until open market was introduced. Regardless, China still has been able to properly feed and clothe it’s entire population (no easy task).

Also how many here actually know what Communism is or understand what Karl Marx and Engels wrote about? And furthermore, what Chinese communism is.

Originally posted by TTP
PlaWolf,

Thanks for the reply, I see your perspective on these topics, I’ve been doing some studies about Asis and I can promise you no nation especially the US wants to get involved in any type of confrontation with China, I’m under the opinion that in order to gain peace why not give up a claim against Taiwan and work things out, I also believe that Israel should do the same with the Palastinians, just give them the West Bank as a homeland and avoid all this death and destruction. But I see your point.
I can tell you that while the US see’s China as a great trade partner, our big concern with you is your communist and the US/West do not trust Communists, If China were to embrace a democratic form of government the US would not feel compelled to act as a counterbalance in Asia. One of the tenants of US policy is that democracies don’t go to war with eachother, If you think about this its true for the last 50 years, The worlds trouble-makers tend to be countrie s run by tyrants/communists, as far as aggression goes (I can hear many of you screaming now about us with Iraq) Also China’s relationship with North Korea is troubling, personally your better off walking away from that one as well. I can see China becoming the dominant world power eventually, but it will never happen under a communist government, you could never compete with the West on equal terms, until the whole apperatus of communism is replaced, or in China’s case modified to a degree that it really isn’t Communism any more. Just my opinion

Couldn’t help but notice this conversation regarding western views of the PRC, I’m currently a political science and asian studies major (almost complete with it too), and here’s some things I’ve learned.

China didn’t directly kill millions but rather it was a policy failure on behalf of Mao, this policy failures is the Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution.

The thign with Mao is, he was charismatic and had alot of support but he was NO policy maker and politician. He had lots of support from the peasants because he too was a peasant (he was from Hunan which was at the time mostly country side), yet he was “superior” from the peasants as he could read and write (most peasants couldn’t), and he had some talents that made him different from the average person, which was his poetry skills and his guerilla warfare skills. I found Mao’s policies very ineffective and not well thought out..

But one thing to note is that Mao HATED Deng Xiao Ping, who was a protoge of Zhou En Lai.

Mao represented the 1st generation of PRC leaders who were mostly Communists, (some were even illterate) and were long marchers..

Zhou En Lai and Deng Xiao Ping are 2nd generation of PRC leaders, this group were educated in Eastern Europe, USSR, etc and many of them were from Shanghai which was urban. Most of these 2nd generation are reformers.. and Mao and those politicians who were Maoists HATED them.

China did not do very well until Deng Xiao Ping came into office and began adopting a pluralist method of government. So to say that China is a “Red Commie” state is wrong as it would probably only represent the early days of the PRC, as Zhou En Lai, Deng Xiao Ping, and Jiang Zemin represent reformers adopting pluralist methods of governing.

Under Deng Xiao Ping he experimented with Market economy (that’s capitalism to westerners) in (i think) 10 coastal cities, almost all of them in the southern areas of Guang Dong province.. within a short time those 10 cities became the richest in China and Guang Dong became the richest province, so he then opened up almost all the coastal cities to market economy, although there are still state run businesses.

I’ve been in China, well just Beijing, and I can tell you that it’s pretty open market there and pretty similar to the west in the consumerism factor.

The thing with communist era state run businesses is that back in the days, they took care of your life from birth till death.. no matter how stupid and unskilled you are, a state company would hire you and find some kind of job for you to do. workers got pention, pay, benefits, etc and worked in those state companies until they retired or they died. When market economy was introduced and private companies came in.. it revealed how obsolete many fo China’s state run companies were, and the products and pay of the state run companies couldn’t compete with those of the private companies priducts. Because of this those state run companies had to lay off some workers.. these workers would try to work for private companies..but they simply lacked the specialized skills needed. Alot of these workers, although they didn’t like the small pay in the state owned companies, it was very stable and they didn’t have to deal with uncertainty.