BREZHNEVExcept that the BrahMos was created by a Russian company and an Indian company trying to make some money. (no surprise there at all, that is what they should be doing… but the Russian navy will have its own ideas on what it wants and those ideas may not coincide with what the makers or BrahMos had in mind.
Call me Mr Cynical but there is a reason why there is an international treaty on missiles with a warhead of 500kgs or more and a range of 300km or more, and that reason probably comes from the US Navy. Either their carrier groups can deal with threats within that range or they don’t want to deal with a lot of threats at greater range than this either for their carrier groups or perhaps their ports and facilities
You mean that is not permited to Russia to have long range land attack cruise missiles?? I thought that this threaty has to do with other countrys not Russia. You mean that USN does not permit to Russia to develop long range antiship missiles because does not feel safe????
The only targets that are threatening enough to warrant such a standoff range of 1,000km would be a US carrier group. For that I would expect a Granit II type weapon as killing such targets requires large conventional warheads or a policy of every warhead a nuke… can’t see the latter though it is possible I guess.
The Granit II is a reality or rumors? Will if its true Granit II have land attack capabilities?
Why do you assume that Russian needs are the same as the needs of the US Navy? Right now priority number one for the Russian Navy will be its strategic arm.. ie Boomer subs. Priority number two will likely be patrol of territorial waters for smugglers, illegal fishing, etc. Third priority will be deciding what future they want and which ships they need to keep, which they need to get rid of and which they need to get built/have remodelled to meet those three needs.
I don’t really see getting a ship like Navy xyz has now beause we just need one is anywhere near the top of their lists. In addition to new ships they will be looking at new sensors and new weapons. We don’t know what they have on their drawing boards.
The reality is that the Russian Navy has never had to project power or support an empire and doesn’t need to for the forseable future. If they did create an ability to project power world wide it would only be used for supporting aide after some natural disaster anyway.
You mean that in 2020 the Russian navy will be only Boreis and Steregushy corvettes?? No DDGs?? In 2020 the Russian navy will be a coast guard and a boomer fleet meanwile the Italian, Japaneese, French, and Spanish navies will be medium but blue water navies?
The only vessels that could be modernized are the KIROVs, no one else. Let me explain you why. The Kirovs are the only vessels with all the weapons in VLS. Is much more easy to modernize and replace weapons in VLS armed vessel than in a “conversional ” vessel. Imagine how difficult is the process of removing the SS-N-12 lauchers in Slava class and putting Onyx lauchers. Looks like the SLAVA was constructed around the SS-N-12 lauchers!!!. By modernizing the 2 Kirovs Veliki and Nakhimov and maintaining the 3 slavas the russian navy, will have 5 vessels with long range SAMs, but after 10 years especially the Slavas will need replacement. What will replace the Slavas? The Steregushys, or the 22350s? The Slavas has the negative that carry the SS-N-12 Sandbox missile wich has the same philosofy of SS-N-3 Saddock. The Granit is a totaly different missile is “universal missile” and is the progenitor of Yakhont/ Brahmos. So the navy will stay only with corvettes?
Note the announcements of Masorin that the navy itends to constructs new carriers. Note also the construction of a new shipyard for that reason. What will escord those 1-2 carriers the Steregushyys? Do you know anything about the project TsNII-1 for a new DDG? It seems to be a DDG equal to the US Arleigh Burge. I dont mean that the Russian navy is USN at any case but absolute need is 12-16 of these projected DDGs.I believe that 12-16 is a reasonable number
Iam not aware of what system’s some of these ships will have as you have asked for , But there were reports of Upgrades of Granits to replace the current ones in Oscar 2 and others
Nor have I heard any thing on the developmet of Kh-101 , There is just black out of news on that front , It would be nice though to have it on Sub and Ships and a replacement of SS-N-21 specially in Non-Nuclear role.
What are the upgreates of Granit? Longer range, land attack capability, stealthier new shape??? SS-N-21 is still in service? SS-N-21 has conversional variant or was only nuclear? Will the Yasen pr 885 carry SS-N-21s alongside with Onyxs??.
Please if someone has any information for the abadoned project 1165 “Fugas” missile cruiser -specifications, tonnage, dimmentions- and line drawing please to post it. I think that in compare with Kirov class this would be even larger!!!!!
BREZHNEVTo AUSTIN:
Yakhont is a “small missile” and when I say “small” I mean short range and light warhead. Yakhont has the same purpose as Moskit and the older Styx. The granit is a “big” missile that has the same purpose as Sandbox and Bulkan. So Russian navy needs to modernize its current long range antiship missile “Granit”, and to upgreate it not to develop a new one, the Yakhont in Brahmos level. Unfortunately Yakhont is less powereful than harpoon. Note that harpoon has 230 kg warhead and Yakhont 200kg! The most important thing in a ASuW missile is the warhead. Doy you know what is the “new” missile system that the Nakhimov will receive? Also the Russian navy needs a cruise land attack missile like the Kh-101, and to istall it in Kirovs and to 22350 frigates, like the French did it with the FREMMs and the Scalp Navales. Klub is limited to 300km range because is a export weapon and the 3K14 missile with the 290km range is not suitable for Russia but for India 7 China. Note that the Klub is derived its existance from SS-N-21 Granat, but the 3000km granat is not for export because is a strategic weapon as well as tomahawk. Do you know if Russia develops land attack missiles for surface vessels? For Nakhimov maybe?
TO MConrads
The image that you poste it is the 22350 before the laying down ceremony and the “artist” impressed how the vessel would be. Note that this image of 22350 looks a little bit like 1154, but the real one looks more like Talwar. I want to be clear, to all, by comparing 22350 with Talwar I don’t mean that is a copy of 1135,6 but my general impression is that the 22350 is a further development of 1135,6. The image with the 2 funels that you posted looks larger than the real project and actually looks like the siluette of a DDG, like the Horizon, type 45, and more like the destroyer sized frigate the Spanish Alvaro de Bazan of 7000t. Do you know if this is a project of a DDG that wrongly named project 22350 too? They may confuse it with the frigate.
For me the real tragety is the DDGs of the Russian navy. The Sovremmenyys, which have boilers and steam, have the powerful Moskit missiles, and 35 km sthil AAW missiles. The Udaloy which have diesel turbines and no steam, have the SS-N-14 stallion that is only an ASW missile similar to US Asroc and is old and too big, and is not in production any more, because of the newer SS-N-15 and more recently the medvedka. Also in compare with Sovremmenyy the Udaloy has only the point deffence kinzal system of 9km. So by this I mean, that you have the nice and formitable vessel the Udaloy with the wrong armament, and you have the problematic steam powered Sovremmenyys with the powerful and nice armament. Thats why I insist that the Russian navy needs absolutely quickly a new DDG for replacing both all the 956 & 1155, and to have Anti ship, land attack and long range anti air capabilities like the US A. Burge, and the FrankoItalian Horizon DDG. 14 of them for the Russian navy will be perfect.
MConrad do you have a line drawing of the Nakhimov how will be after modernization, if you have it please post it.
BREZHNEVTO MConrads:
If it is yours the line drawing of 22350 this is an excact copy from the official plan which were known in the stamps and the metallic plate of layng down ceremony, and if I am right SNAKE65 posted in page 17 of this forum but i am not sure if is 17 or one page forward or back. There was an image of 22350 in page 1 which presented the 22350 in different shape, a larger vessel whith 2 funels, and I notice that in comparison with the real 22350 in the ceremony of 1/2/2006 is much different. Even the number (921) you take it from the official stamp… The general lines and the general layout of the 22350 is known from the ceremony so is very easy the guesswork next. At the same time when the 22350 laid down there were a rumor that the vessel was a destroyer sized frigate of 8000t but this was only a rumor. The Official announcement was completely accurate and mentioned a vessel of 4500t 130m length 16 beam and armed with 8 Onyx. So we have here a usuall frigate and nothing that is too important to be a secret. I will repeat that this is a larger version of Stereguchy corvette, and if you take a better look you will see that both 22350 frigate and 20380 corvette have the same armament, except the AAW system of 22350. As for the 8000t vessel that mentioned before I keen on questioning if a destroyer sized vessel is planned to be laid down too. MConrads, if is possible please i want to post an image of the project 1165 “Fugas” nuclear powered cruiser. Please do you have any information about this project?
To rickusn
If I am right you are a little bit Ironic, but I don’t see the reason why Russian navy to keep so secret a 4500t frigate, this is not a Borei SSBN, or a Kirov is just a frigate nothing more nothing less. I think you have better information than me, and I want to ask you if you know what will be the new armament that will be installed in Nakhimov missile cruiser.
BREZHNEVFirstly I have to say that the main difference between Onyx and Brahmos is the lower 200kg warhead of Onyx compared with the 300kg of Brahmos and the lack of land attack capability in Onyx, so is clear that Brahmos is a much more succesful weapo than Onyx. So the Russian navy will choose Onyx or Brahmos?? Also I find out that the final plan for project 22350 will be a frigate of 4500t and the images in page 1 of this forum and the information that mentioned a 8000t vessel was absolutely wrong.
1. Does anyone have any line drawing of the aborodive project 1165 missile cruiser? Please if is possible to post it.
2. The second 22380 corvette when will be launched?
3. The second 22350 frigate when will be laid down?
4. Is any possibility to built the Russian navy any vessel of 8000t a new DDG?
5. When Ad Nakhimov will be return in service in 2008? Will finally be installed on it new granits, Onyx, or Brahmos.???
6. The 22350 finally will carry VLS sthil or Klinok Sa-n -9?as project 1154?
The real project 22350 Sergei Gorhskov:
BREZHNEVRADAR,You are right, and surely I can’t explain to my self how is possible for a country that in two years will launch the super duper stealth DDX -a real 21st century USS Monitor:p – maintains the mk-29 launcher with the useless Sea Sparrow missile. Is easy to put an 8 cell MK-41 with ESSMs and this doesn’t covers more space than the Mk-29. The Kuznetsov has VLS system klinok, which I hate it very much and I prefer Sthil VLS , but is VLS! As for kastans you can put 2, one forward and one aft up to the helicopter hangar, and to cover 180& 180 decrees, for small ships like 20380 and 22350and 4 kastans with 90 decrees covering each one, for vessels like DDGs. Is a great and deathly mistake for the Steregushy the fact of only one kastan and not 2. Radar do you know how many cells with AAW missiles the 22350 will carry. Also is trye that the CGX will be a DDX without the 2 6.1inch guns but with more MK-57 cells? Fianlly do you know if the Russian navy will built a new DDG which will replace both Udaloy and Sovremmeny classes? I ‘ve seen that the navy doesn’t have any intention to keep in service the Udaloys and is a great example that they don’t repair the “Kulakov” or “karlamov” if I am right, -I think that one of the 2 names is the correct- but they prefere to keep it out of service. Ivanov said that there are funds for modernizing the Nakhimov but no funds for “Karlamov”… So is obvious that the Udaloys are considered to have small value for the navy. To conclude is obvious that the gap that the absence of Udaloys and Sovremmenyys will live should be covered with somethig greater than 22350. I believe that 22350 is a russian version (but smaller) of the FREMM. I deeply believe that they have a design of DDG but I don’t know lot details.
BREZHNEVVLS Sthil has a range about 35km and this is not area defence this is “long range point defence” if it is permited to say. So if a vessel carries both kastan and klinok SA-N-9 this has no meaning, because Kastan with both missiles and 30mm gatling covers a 8km area, and SA-N-9 covers 12km range so the “gap” between Kastan and klinok 4km only is too small, and i have to say that the kastan does the job of klinok. So the Sthil is a SELF DEFENCE weapon with longer range -30km-. So a vessel with kastan and VLS sthil is the best combination, especially for a vessel like the 4500t project 22350 frigate. I think the second project 1154 should be scrapped or (if is in good condition) to be a part of the boarders patroling services like the krivaks III. The 22350 & 20380 are much better from the 1154. Does any one knows if the russian navy plans to built DDGs larger than the 22350 frigates for replacing of Udaloy and Sovremmeny classes?:confused:
I forgot to say that the Sea Sparrow replaced by ESSM at the same way as Klinok with VLS sthil. This happened because Phalanx and primarly RAM does the same job as the Sea Sparrow. Look at the CVN 76 Ronnald Reagan: There is not any Mk-29 launchers with Sea Sparrow. Only RAMs.
BREZHNEVI think that the Khinzal-Klinok is now useless for the Russian navy as sea sparrow rim-7 is useless for the USN. I think that the Klinok is being replaced by the VLS sthil in the 22350. Klinok is like Sea Sparroy and VLS Sthil is like the ESSM. NATO navies replacing the the 15km ranged Sea Sparrow by the 30 km ranged ESSM and Russian Navy replacing the Khinzal of 12 km by the 30km ranged VLS sthil.
Does anyone knows how many VLS cells will the 22350 will carry??:confused: Also are the Russian navy plans to built a greater vessel than the 22350? Anew DDG?
BREZHNEVThis is a possible line drawing for the project 11711:
Does anyone have a line drawing from the cancelled project 1165 missile cruiser??
BREZHNEVDoes any one has news from the project 22350 frigate what missiles will receive only Onys or land attack together as the French FREMMS ? Before I was writing my comments about the Project 885 but infortunately can’t posted I asked to write my password and my text dessapeared and I have to write it from the beggining!:mad:
BREZHNEVABOUT THE FUTURE RUSSIAN DDG
We have in previous time discuss about the future Russian Destroyer and about project TsNII-1 and the similarities with the US AEGIS ships. But I want to ask if someone have better information or details. Also I want to post an article of 2004 about this issue.
From:http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/2-2004/rat/sfd/
The further development of large surface fighting ships in the Russian Fleet is tied to attempts to develop multipurpose destroyers, equipped with an integrated, multifunctional weapon and fire control system. The system includes, “standardized launchers for practically all types of missiles and anti-aircraft missile systems that can ensure the destruction of aerial targets at any altitude and range extending to several dozen kilometers from the ship.”[21] Plans are currently underway to develop vessels similar to American warships equipped with the AEGIS system. There are at present two known designs, one by the Number 1 Central Scientific Research Institute (TsNII-1), a counterpart to the American Arleigh Burke Flight IIA class ships, and another by the Northern Design Bureau.
Please if someone has any line Drawing or detailed information please to share it with us.
I also want to repeat my question about the huge cancelled project 1165 Fugas, which cancelled in 1970s what was the size the cheracteristics and the dimencions of this cruiser??
BREZHNEVI wish Trumpeter to produce the Kirov in 1/200 as did with the sovremmenyy.
Does anyone knows for the article of “airbase.ru” which I posted above for the “Admiral Nakhimov” is accurate? Will finally “Admiral Nakhimov” receive LAND ATTACK capability? Moreover after “Admiral Nakhimov” will “Veliki” modernized too?
BREZHNEVActually was descussion for the Russia’s fleet Dorctine:.
from:
http://forums.airbase.ru/viewtopic.php?id=52708
I read that:
Провести ремонт и модернизацию ТАРКР проекта 1144 на СФ с включением в состав АУГ – обязательно воооружить оружием для стрельбы по наземным целям (корабль-арсенал).
BREZHNEVTHE RUSSIAN NAVY DORCTINE (FROM airbase.ru)
I Read recently in a forum (airbase ru.) an item about the russian fleet’s dorctine. I read that they intent to transform the “Admiral Nakhimov” in “arsenal ship” like the cancelled US SC-21 ()in favour of DD(X). They said that this vessel has enough space and size to carry up to 80 land attack missiles. Also that the majority of 22350 frigates will be transferred in both Baltic and Black sea fleets.The general argument is that Yakhont of 22350’s is much better than any other SSM in mediterranean and it easily can handle any warship esp. ofturkish navy, which uses only harpoons. The missile cruiser Moskva will go to accompany the Admiral Kyznetsov in Nothern Fleet, with the second Slava “Marsal Ustinov” Also equal number of aircraft carriers will go to Nothern and Pacific fleets. The General Dorctine for the next 2 decates will be: Small and medium sized vessels in Black Sea and Baltic Fleets and DDGs and large vessels in Nothern and Pacific fleets. What type of land attack missiles will arm “Admiral Nakhimov”????
BREZHNEVTO ADMINISTRATOR:
With several attemts Iam trying to write my text and when I try to post it it appears a message that ask me to write my code and to log in again. What is going wrong here? 😡
BREZHNEVHAPPY NEW YEAR!!!
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