BREZHNEVBrahmos, Sunburn, Club, etc. etc. SM-6 would be to take out their launching aircraft (and to assist in airspace control all around). Consider the impact SM-6 could have in a China/Taiwan scenario. A couple Aegis ships with those onboard cued by Hawkeyes is going to have a significant effect on the air battle. SM-3s would be useful against Chinese ballistic missiles that they are working on using to target ships with.
USA has 10 times greater or more nuclear arsenal than China so a nuke attack in USA, would be fo Chine a great SUISIDE. China has no intention to attack America. If China is a treat for America is also a threat for Russia, so at the same base of thinking Russia should have a blue water navy and a full deck supercarries and navalized S-400s and Anteis-2500s, and to use as USA the space for military purposes too. Blue water navy is NOT only US PRIVILAGE. 😡
On the other hand in China – Taiwan conflict let them fight, this is not your bussness. USA should not replace the U.Nations!!! This will be a “Global American Dictatorship” 😮 SFERRIN if you see two men to fight at the meadle of the street you will keep on your way, you will not be engaged at their fight, at the same logic if China will NOT attack at NATO ally or at the USA, Americans should not be engaged.
BREZHNEVThe Tanker above realy exists or is a fantastic ship?
BREZHNEVMy friend Neptune do you know if Trumpeter plans to produce the KIROVS in 1/350 scale as it did with Kuznetsov? I don’t know with they don’t have the in 350s. At this scale the Veliki will have the same size with Bismark 75cm approx. Nakhimov and Veliki are very sweet and nice ships, but for a not profecional modeler are very complicated. On the other hand a 350scaled DD(X) will be a piece of cake even for 1 year old baby!!! These ships will have no more than 10 parts!! So ungly and so easy ships as the subs. :dev2:
BREZHNEVThe black sea fleet is Russia’s instrument for partnership missions alongside with NATO In summer of this year as you have already see in previous pages of this forum Moskva crossed the bosporus accompanied with one LSD and an auxiliary vessel for taking part in exercises with one Type 42 DDG and a US perry FFG if I am right. Without blue water vessels russian navy will not be able to take part in international military exercises and opperations with NATO in medidderanean. They need a vessel FFG and up, for joining the exercises. Stereguchiys are semi coastal vessels, and the Russian navy will need blue water vessels nad for the future. Not only wartime but also a piece time for waregames with NATO and China makes large vessels necessaries.
BREZHNEVTo NEPTUNE:
1. I’m completely agree with you that the large unites should go at the large fleets -NOTHERN & PACIFIC. I put 3 SLAVAS in PAC and the 2 remaing KIROVS in NORTH. But without Moskva and the Kashin there is no Fleet in Mediterenean. The fleet there have three capital ships-if I can use that term- the Moskva, the Kashin, and one Krivak the (808 Pitlivyy) so one ship is NOT a fleet is just a ship. So I think that is better to put all the 20380s corvettes to Baltic and Black sea at equal numbers and then to remove the other. So according to that base of thinking I put:
NOTHERN FLEET
1. Kuznetsov
2. VELIKI & NAKHIMOV
3. THE UDALOY II
4. all the SOVS
PACIFIC
1.all the SLAVAS
2.all the UDALOY I
BLACK & BALTIC
1. the 20380s equal in each fleet
2. the 22350s as flagships for each fleet
3. all the small corvettes like TARRANTULS etc. for each fleet.
4. the Neustrasmyy in baltic.
That ‘s my logic.
NOR and PAC fleets weat for the new generation replacements of KIROV and SLAVA when they will appear!!.
2.According to my point of view seems the 22350 frigate to be the Russian equal of the Norway’s (Nancen class).Just compare the armament , the mission and the size of the two classes.
3.Any news from my lovely Nakhimov?? I wish for my favourite vessel the best and a brilliant future. You will say wishes! wishes! but I ‘m keeping on hope.
BREZHNEVAll Nice and Well that Russia has a big coastline, but how much of it is navigable? They have like 1/10 or 1/100th of the amount of seaports Europe has. They can hardly handle any decent seagoing vessel let alone ocean going ones. So defending a bunch of ice can hardly be done with any destroyer or cruiser really.
For Long Range SAMs, people compare national navies too much. Imagine you fight a NATO squadron. There you will see the need and force of the Spanish, Dutch and German AAW destroyers.
Russia doesn’t need any of that, as Garry said, developing something because someone else has it is not the way to build up a navy, rather the way to start an arms race. And the latter is something Russia is not yet capable of nor willing to do…
Garry it’s all about NATO and Europe, not which neighbours we have. France will not engage Germany and vice versa, does that mean they should get rid of their armed forces too? in such cases only Poland and other East European countries would require armed forces. Not exactly a situation anyone would like. NATO and European forces are there for peacekeeping, if they are gone, you’ll see things developing a totally different way. Look at US invasions, if Europe had had a stronger force, then US would probably not have put them aside so easily…No matter how you turn it, the most likely threat to Russia is China, and do they need many big destroyers for that? I don’t think so, their submarine forces can probably do the job if used and trained correctly. As Garry mentioned a full grown carrier will be much more efficient against PLAAF than any S-400 or S300FM equiped ship.
The land based air force is not the “KEY SOLUTION” for every threat. Also I think that China is not a threat for Russia , they are close allies. Also note that Russia is the major supplier for PLAN, PLAAF, PLA and without any Russian assictance the PLAN would be technologically at 1950s level. I remind you that before the russian assistant the PLAN consisted only of Ludas and Luhus DDs without any AA defence except the copy of the French Crotale on board the Luhus if Iam right. It is obvious that you never turn against your supplier. I think that enemy at Pacific is Japan wich is the major naval force there. I also want to ask again and I am sorry for being boring, but The USN needs the SM-3/6 for protect its carrier against whom??? :confused: (Bin ladens rokets? N.Korea’s missiles?) of cource not.
So my friend Neptune please tell me your suggestion for the Russian navy of the next decate? (I wish Masorin to have defferent thinking from the rest of you at the forum otherwise Russia will be a small land locked state without any Navy and will go back at the era before the Peter the Great, when the Ivan the Terrible had only river cogs and even Poland could lanch an attack from the sea. Ivan didn,t have galleons nor carracks and wish the same story will not be repeated. Lets keep walking at the Peter’s the Great route 🙂 )
BREZHNEV“Spain and the Netherlands don’t have the muscle or the industry to create weapons they need so they buy off the shelf. The makers of the SM2 and ESSM are not going to make a weapon especially for Spain or the Dutch, so the Spanish and the Dutch navies just buy what is available.”
So why Spain choose both of them (SM-2 & ESSM)? They could bought only ESSM, – (As Norway did with Nancen class FFGs)- and I think ESSM merged with 30 km range do the job perfectly. So SM-2 is for Spain a real waste of money. For a medium sized navy like Netherlands and Spain the ESSM is the most suitable.
BREZHNEVI insist that the long range AA missile system is an absolut need for the Russian navy, and I am asking again why a country with the size of Spain has 3 level air defence ship (F-100 is armed with both SM-2, ESSM, and a Spain made CIWS, meroca if i speal it well) and Russia only with gun boats and corvettes armed with CIWS only. CIWS is the last line of any ship’s defence. I wish Masorin to weak up and imediately to start to built DDGs. May I ask ?
Why USN needs the SM3? Against what threat?
So for the same threat the Russian navy needs the S-400.
Is totally clear that a US carrier can be effectivelly protected with an SM-2. I want to ask if the SM-3 as an antiballistic weapon has any purpose. The argument that they protect the Fleet against North Korean missile is very Funny. The North Korean missiles are like Flares!! The North Korean army has a WWI NOT WWII technology!!!!!. Even from the Vatican’s city guard the DPRK army can be easily defeated!!! So I am asking again why USN needs SM-3 and the European navies the SM2?
So at the same base of thinking the russian navy needs S-400.
Also note that Russia have almost 2 times greater coastline than the European Union, so they need strong navy, NOT motor boats. I wish Ad. Masorin to weak up and to start to built real warships. Furthermore note that the slavas cruisers are getting older and needs replacement, so what ship will replace them?
BREZHNEVIt would be very unlikely for the Russian navy to be engaging aerial targets at more than 100km let alone over 200km range. Why waste money on a feature you may never even use? The real threat to a modern ship is not extreme long range targets but saturation attacks. Hundreds of smaller shorter range SAMs make rather more sense than a few large heavy very long range SAMs.
Why Spain and Netherlands needs, frigates armed with SM2(120km) range, along with ESSM, with 30km range? Why Spain and Netherlads waste money?? :confused:
Is better for a warship to have 3 level air defence capability
1. CIWN
2.VLS Sthil missiles
3.Navalized S-300/S-400
My proposal is for Russian navy to develop a DDG armed both medium and long range AAW missiles.
BREZHNEVwhere is the sovremenny and udaloy ? :confused:
Also Scorpion is still in drawing board right ?
I think the navy already have molniya as missile crafts
According to my proposal the UDALOYS and SOVS shoud be put out of the fleet, and to be replaced by single class of a new 9000t DDG. The russian navy needs a capable vessel for engangind air targets at ranges more than 100km.Is better for any navy to have a single rather than a lot of types of ships for the same purpose. Also the same base of thinking I have for the Scorpions. You can see molnyas with SS-N-2, SS-N-9 Siren, SS-N-22, and SS-N-25, and also you can see Nanutskas larger Fast attack crafts. Is better to have one class in great numbers armed with one missile only (see Yakhont) than a lot of classes, one class, one weapon system, better job, less confussion. 😉
BREZHNEVYou deeply believe… too much!
Firstly, two versions? That was only mentioned by Pinko somewhere, haven’t seen ANY Russian source state that…
As you have said, very secret and no one knows the dimentions nor weapons, you won’t get an answer by asking this over and over again. Have patience, we’ll see the thing when it comes out. As for 16 Shtil, they’d rather opt for the standard arm launcher with 22 missiles than put just 16 cells in there… If it will only be able to carry 16 Shtils then you will rather get something between a Krivak and a Grisha sized thing. As for a 54A, the Russians have better ideas than just copying Chinese things…
1.I said 16 sthil because i just read it somewhere.
2.I read in many articles (network54 military forum) that the 054A is “Russian made” if i am allowed to use this term. If you see the majority of the weapons and the sensors are from Russia. So i thought if this project has any connection with the 22350 due to the same size, (4000t – 4500t both of them)
BREZHNEVI deeply believe that it will be a russian version of the chinese 054A frigate, and if you see the 054A is fully russian equiped.
BREZHNEV????
OH and if it really secret no one can explain you why…. cept he want FSB/GRU to kill him
Don’t be so ironic, is obvious that the 22350 has two versions, 4500 and 8000t and I dont, know why you hate so much the veliki. The S-300 of veliki is much greater protection for the fleet than the VLS sthil of the new 22350. 😎 Is rumored that 22350 will have 16 vls sthil and 8 Yakhonts, and there is a comfusion about the displacent. Veliki is a diamont for the fleet, and unfortunately 22350 seems to be a huge coast vessel, a krivak replacement, pleace tell my your opinion about my proposal for the russian fleet? Do you agree that the fleet needs a destroyer sized vessel with air defence capability? Probably with navalized S-400? Are you satisfied with the VLS sthil only?
BREZHNEVI didn’t understand your comment. You mean that the 22350 is a guard ship? Where are you from?
Pyotr veliki is a fighting vessel not a littoral warfare boat. I just asking about the 22350, no one has any idea bout the specific dimencions and tha armament of this ship.
BREZHNEVAs I read from the 054A’s “page” the comparizon between 054A, Talwar, and 22350 is impossible because the 22350 is totally a mystery! I want to ask why Russians make this project too “secret” is just a 4000T common frigate! Not a spaceship!! Also I can explain the reason of developing to projects of frigates. 22350 & 20380 are both frigates of 4000 and 2200t. A lot of classes is a problem for every fleet. As for frigates the 20380 is very good. They need a new 9000t DDG with extended AAW capability (navalized S-400) 32 Yakhonts for SSM/land attack , and ASW protection(Medvecka). The Russian navy needs a single project of large DDG, which will replace the Udaloys and the sovremmenyys. If the 20380 is too small they could be easily to enlarge her in 3000t vessel and not to start to develop a new one(22350). My proposal is for the navy: 24 20380(corvettes/frigates), 14 9000t DDGs, & 30 yakhont armed “Scorpion” class 500t corvettes, and put out all Udaloys, Sovremmenyys, Krivaks, and the remaining Karas, and keep only Veliki, Nakhimov and the Slavas.
My proposal:
1 Kuznetsov
2 Kirov
3-4 Slava (if they decide to buy the lonely Lobov from Ucraine )
14 New DDGs of 9000t
24 20380(corvettes/frigates)
30 Scorpions missile crafts
10 1124 (corvetts, I mean to keep the newest)
THATS ALL and is so easy and realistic solution, and also I want to ask if someone has any news for the Nakhimov’s modernization, and the rumored Granit- 2 missile system, is reality or fantasy this missile system? Finally when Nakhimov will joine the fleet? 2007?, 2008? or 2009?
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