Nick_76i am talking about Irbis-E (Snow Leopard) which is a development of the N011 Bars radar ,i have read a lot about in the media but Iaf has not come with answer to media speculation some are saying new it might be AESA radar as MMRCA aircraft will have AESA and Iaf may want Aesa in mki too
Hmm…those media reports were based on Sengupta writing his usual in Force. But nothing of the sort has come out as yet.
The Irbis cant be put into the MKI without upgrading its electrical systems, it takes a lot more power than the Bars. There are three ways to squeeze more range out of a radar, speaking simplistically – spend more effort on signal processing (eg the Israeli effort to operationalize TBD on the CAEW), put out more power, and third, increase the sensitivity of the radar.
The Irbis, basically does the second. Whereas an AESA would do the third. I would think it makes sense for us to wait till an AESA set is available from NIIP, say with LRDE involvement and induct that.
Right now, the Bars is already “up there” with WW fighter radars, and the IAF is going to be inducting anywhere between 6 (confirmed) to 9 (3 additional Phalcons) AWACS/AEW&C aircraft, and datalinking them to all the AI/AS fighters.
Surveillance & radar coverage for the fighters is not going to be an issue.
The MMRCAs will also come with AESA.
So I think its reasonable to wait for a while.
Nick_76http://www.ato.ru/rus/cis/archive/17-2007/def/def4/?sess_=76c
Since the beginning of licensed production in 2004, Irkut already has sent 21 assembly kits to HAL, including 13 delivered last year.
In total, deliveries for the Indian Air Force will provide the Russian company with revenues of more than $5 billion — figure that also includes four dozen Su-30MKI aircraft in various configurations already delivered to this country.
Now India plans to replace Russian fighters from the initial export shipments with the most updated aircraft version, as well as increase the volume of licensed manufacturing in order to reinforce its Air Force’s depleted inventory.
In April, Russia’s government-owned Rosoboronexport arms trading agency signed a new deal to provide India with an additional batch of 18 Su-30MKI fighters. The new aircraft will be exchanged for the same number of earlier Su-30K versions — which had been shipped to India in 1997 and 1999 as the first step of a multi-year procurement program. It was envisaged these initial aircraft would be upgraded to the Su-30MKI level with new avionics, a modernized airframe and thrust vectoring engines. But such modernization was subsequently deemed not possible, as it required significant changes in the aircraft — including the installation of canard control surfaces and thrust vector controls, so as a result, India agreed to purchase new fighters.
The deal inked in April is estimated at $500 million, and Irkut representatives confirmed to the Russia & CIS Observer that all 18 new aircraft will be delivered by the end of 2007.Earlier, Irkut’s Demchenko announced that even before the signing of the contract, Irkut already had completed the construction of 12 new Su-30MKI aircraft.
The cost of each of Su-30K that Russian has agreed to take back is estimated at $12 million. They have logged some 1,500 flight hours and require major overhaul. Initially Russia planned to re-sell these second-hand aircraft to Belarus, but Minsk hasn’t confirmed the deal. A source at Irkut refused to name a new customer for the ex-Indian Sukhoi fighters, but promised that they will be re-exported to another country.
India seems to be quite happy with the new Russian fighters and plans to further increase their numbers in the country’s Air Force. Now both sides are preparing another deal for an additional batch of 40 Su-30MKI assembly kits. At last February’s AeroIndia air show in Bangalore, India announced its plans to expand the volume of Sukhoi fighters currently being built under license at HAL’s facility in Nasik. Due to the Irkutsk plant’s current high production load, the additional kits reportedly will be scheduled for delivery in 2008-2010.
So lets see India had around 32 MKIs, of which say half were Phase 1/2- round it off to 20.
1. So thats 12 Su-30 MKI Phase 3.
2. Add 21 MKI Phase 3’s delivered by 2007 end. (See above)
3. 18 MKI Phase 3’s delivered by 2007, and HAL plans for 23 this year. We’ll go with the latter figure. So 23.
Total: 12 +21+23 = 55 MKI Phase 3’s at least by 2008 end (which we pretty much are at).
Also add upgraded MKI Phase 1/2’s (20) being returned to service, and I think a fleet of 60-70 odd MKIs by this year end is quite reasonable.
Lower figure, would mean 4 squadrons of 15 aircraft each. Again, a reasonable figure.
By 2008-10, another 40 aircraft – of which 15 will enter service asap. Thats another squadron right there. Add the regular 13-20 odd aircraft manufactured at HAL every year, and another 1-2 squadron raisings are also possible by 2010, almost doubling the number of MKI squadrons from 4 to 7, and well on track to 11 squadrons by 2015.
Nick_76Coldfire,
40 Follow orders of MKI will come after 2010 and will be first batch of fighters to carry new Radar and after that follow on MKI built in India will carry new radars
Source for the above?
Because it appears extremely unlikely that India would move to a new radar within a few years of setting up production of the Bars Mk3 radar, and that too when it is quite potent.
Nick_76For the follow on order of 40, wiki says:
India signed a deal on Feb 2007 for purchase of another 40 Su-30MKI in light of the declining fleet levels of the Indian Air Force. These will be Mk3 standard aircraft. In light of the fully booked production facilities at HAL, and the IAF’s desire for aircraft as soon as possible, a new arrangement was worked out for these 40 aircraft.
15 Aircraft will be provided complete, whereas another 15 will be provided partially assembled and will have to be integrated and tested in India. The remaining ten will be provided as partial kits, so that HAL can assemble them, also utilizing components which have already been mastered in India.
Nick_76nick, any idea which would be the next mki sqdn after the pursoots ?
also, how many mki’s does IAF currently have in its inventory ?
Squadrons, no idea and didnt check. But I think there are at least some 70-80 MKI Phase-3’s in the inventory, (actual numbers may be higher) and whats happening is this:
– The earlier 20 odd MKI Phase 1 and 2’s are being brought upto Phase 3 and might in fact be back in service by this year or the next. Basically, new radars with new processors, and HAL has the test facilities
-Around 13 MKIs were delivered by HAL last year, and this year, it should be around 23 per reports
-In the next couple of years, a substantial number of MKIs will enter service – add another 2-3 squadrons worth, since Irkut is going to be supplying a substantial number of airframes as CKD/SKD kits to boost IAF numbers (40+18) – these are the 40 new MKIs ordered plus the replacement for the 18 Su-30 K’s.
-All said and done, I think we’ll have another squadron raising next year and if the IAF can train enough people/ maint crew, perhaps 2.
Nick_76Hey who told you fools that this was a chatroom?
why, nobody, just walking along, nothing to see here…whistles and walks along…:o
If one of those PMs includes the phrase “what are you wearing” I swear I’ll ban you all 😀
:eek::eek::eek:
(Rahul is a guy!!) …fyi, just so that you dont get your hopes up. 😀
Nick_76Rahul M you have a PM.
Nick_76With due respect, I wouldnt quote this site – the author seems to be a tad immature viz anything challenging his preconceived notions. I wrote him a few years back and got the impression “fanboy”, all said and done.
There are several errors in the above MiG-25 extract as well, which is par for the course.
Regards.
Nick_76Thanks for the link,
But isnt selling the S-400 to Turkey = compromising their latest and best system to NATO??
That too, the Turkish RFP iirc calls for extensive TOT.
Nick_76Was he unaware of Chinese S-300PMU buys in the early 90’s, or PMU-1 buys in the late 90’s?
“It was a terrific plane… neither an aircraft nor a missile could chase,” Air Vice Marshal Sumit Mukurjhee said.
“Could chase”, so he is speaking of the past, and at least the journo mentioned that accurately (vs “Can chase”)
Also, it doesnt really say when AVM SMukherjee flew the plane or which period he is talking about.
Besides, iirc its only now that the S-300 PMU deployments are going towards India, iirc most of the earlier ones were @ population centers, AFB/ Centers directed towards the Taiwan conflict, correct me if I am wrong.
So it could be that the IAF never “saw” a S-300 intrude into its theater of ops (yes, the system is mobile and can be brought in, but it hadnt been till then)
Pakistan I can agree with. Their strategic air defense arrangement, a solitary HQ-2 battery near Islamabad, is laughable.
Agree, in fact if you see the better pics of Kargil as well, they were taken by the MiG-25.
Kargil 1999 was the IAF MiG-25’s swan song (imho) – last time it was in a live conflict and did yeoman service (it was brought in exactly because there was no other aircraft which could map the entire terrain in 1-2 flights).
I think, if not for the spares issue and the problem of flight safety, the IAF would have kept the MiG-25 around for longer.
All said and done, despite sats and UAVs and all that jazz, its awesome to have a fighter on call, which can map huge swathes of terrain and fly higher and faster than anything your opponent can throw at it.
Its being replaced though also by a new Israeli radar/Electrooptic pod on the MKIs.
China is partly accurate as I have yet to see any evidence of an S-300P series facility anywhere near the southwestern region of China. But the system is mobile, and if needbe they could’ve send it down there.
Agree (in fact I was attempting to say the same above) but it could be it was never deployed near India at the time.
Nick_76What in the world are Bat Men? I could speculate, but…
Enlisted person(nel)/ PBOR who are designated assistants to an officer.
I remember reading that Norman Schwarzkopf had two bird colonels pressing his shoes and ironing his shirts during ODS. That would make them his “bat men”, probably the highest ranked ones though. 😀
Nick_76.
Please no jokes about “Batman and Robin”
Now, you had to go and say that! Sorry Phillip, couldnt resist.
Nick_76SOC, what do you make of the S-400 export offer to Turkey?
That kind of seems to be like that they wont really rely on the system and probably induct only token amounts, like in the case of the Su-35 while they are waiting for the definitive PAK-FA.
So is the S-500 the ultimate aim?
Nick_76JSF!!
(Now runs off before he is lynched alive :D:D)
Nick_76This is a picture of the aircraft they have at Bentwaters.
Maybe possible resale to the indians?
Well kind of doubtful? Because HAL just ended its second production run of Jaguars (17 two seaters and 20 single seaters). All deliveries complete by next year, after which DARIN-3 upgrade to avionics and systems will start for the first 2-3 squadrons of Jags bought directly from the UK.
Per HAL figures, around ~85% of airframe and engine spares are being made locally, and for the rest, I presume they wouldnt be too common with the RAF airframes which had a different engine too & different avionics.
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