Nick_76In related news:
1.
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article/1009/42/369022.htm
Defense Contracts In Doubt
18 July 2008
The country’s defense industry lacks the resources to meet all its arms export contracts, Russian Technologies chief Sergei Chemezov said Thursday.“Russian industry cannot meet some of the signed contracts,” the state corporation’s press office quoted Chemezov as saying at the Farnborough air show in Britain. {Then why sign them in the first place, and make a mockery out of agreed upon business processes}
“A growth in the number of government orders and export contracts has overloaded defense enterprises, whose productivity has not changed,” he added. {A cop out, the problems of mismanagement at several state firms is also a reason. The Sevmash CEO was also removed from his job, was he not?}
The country has had a number of problems with weapons contracts in recent years, including falling behind on a $1 billion contract to modernize the Soviet-built Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier for India. {Falling behind or reneging?}
The arms trade, which brings Russia annually around $7 billion, is a source of national pride. But a chronic lack of funds for modernization and problems with retaining staff have badly hit the defense industry over the years. The problems became more acute after an economic boom allowed the government to place new orders.
Russian Technologies, which controls most state-owned defense enterprises except for those engaged in aviation and shipbuilding, was created to channel state resources into modernizing the industry.
The Kremlin on Monday said President Dmitry Medvedev had approved a plan to consolidate 426 state-owned stakes in Chemezov’s corporation.
(Reuters, MT)
Nick_76Gawsh, this guy is like a trainwreck keeps going on & on & on.
Spam master central.
Ok:
Gorshkov strong. Best carrier in the entire darn world. Everyone else who disagrees with the above:
Third rate politician or a molester.
I am done with this drivel. This kind of jingoism ashames me & no all Indians dont bloody well think like this.
Nick_76I do use a lot of icons but rarely Thumbs Up or Down. Also, as long as I am on the subject. The rolleyes icon :rolleyes: looks to me like he is looking up as in “thinking” and least that what I consider it. Others, may take it in the form of disrespect. Which, at least in my case I do not. So, if you read my posting and take that icon in that context. I think you will see my point……….
Regardless, from now on I’ll cut way back on using icons………As some have obviously misinterpreted my intent.
Thanks for the civil reply.
Just to explain:
The :rolleyes: icon is mostly used on webboards as a symbol of sarcasm & for conveying displeasure/disbelief at what the other poster is saying. Similarly,the hands down icon as a reply conveys the same.
Hence, they came across as the opposite of what you meant.
Nick_76so you won’t stop playing the victim. my post to Unicron was not abusive and if he has got problems with it I will edit or delete my post.
see your post posts that you made in other threads and what you have been calling others and your behaviour to other members. probably you got a lot of time to waste on trolling and just loves to keep on posting on whats not relevant to the thread.
1. I dont have time to waste.
2. I posted on this thread because your aggressive defence of the Gorshkov reflected badly on Indian and Indian posters, with more & more posters stating the facts coming to the belief that nationalism trumped facts.
3. Your abuse on this thread reflects 2.
So you have never used a word like “nonsense”?
Not in reply to a sensible post.
In India we call people who molest as molester. I don’t know what you term them as. But surely the guy whose wife and sister got molested belives that they were not angles. And how silly, you pull-up the issues with typing error and spelling mistakes to such an extent. if your intention was on sensible replies, you should have pointed out the spelling mistakes & typing error
1. I am an Indian.
2. Your comparing other posters to molesters shows your lack of courtesy and decorum.
Exactly, thats what you shoul be asking yiourself. I pointed out that the problem with the deal had mistakes from our own side and you brand me. The same thing is what you have been doing on PAK-FA thread when some posters pointed out that PAk-FA might just be a MKI type deal.
1. Your branding & brand recognition is your own responsibility.
2. The Gorshkov deal had problems from the Indian side, and absolute dishonesty from the Sevmash side as well.
3. The PAKFA is not a MKI type deal. Please research a bit more. HAL& India were not involved in abinitio work on the MKI to the extent they will be on the MKI.
4. If you were trolling on the PAKFA thread & you were rebutted, unfortunately, that is not my concern.
see and check your own posts in other threads anc come back.
1. Irrelevant to this thread.
2. My posts stand (and fall) on their own merit. Comparing them to yours, would be singularly useless.
3. Especially since your posts have hit new depths in terms of lack of decorum – “molesters”, “3rd rate politicians” etc – none of which I have ever descended to, or will.
my analogy on that example was to show who much people have gone to denail w.r.t their own short-coming. If you could not understand it, it is not my fault. You can continue trolling to increase your post count with mosre post on this.
Denial depicts your behaviour in this thread.
Calling other posters molesters and third rate politicians is not acceptable.
Gorshkov’s success is a combined success for the Indian Navy and the tax payers like me.
Till date, the project has been a resounding failure.
Your above reply shows that you did not read the articles and probably want to troll to increase your post count. Else I don’t see any reason for your posts.
Reading your subjective POV and not agreeing to it does not make one a troll.
Please be more mature in your replies.
In the real world, people dont necessarily agree to whatever you say.
Nick_76Did i? I was quoteing from whats available in the open, to which your response was agressive – asking me If I belong to the negotiation team. try to avoide that kind of behavious and more sensible discussion will kick in.
If you quote speculation as fact, then I will ask for your sources.
The only way you can be sure of anything, is if you are on the negotiation team.
If you arent, you dont know the stated prices.
Simple statement of fact.
Asking that is not aggressive. It is informing you that you are speculating, as is everyone else.
yeah, it was a report. And the voice regaring how Gorshkov was a junk and rust bucket was also based on report. isn’t it. But you and other poster that you were defending were claiming on that line.
People have a right to their opinion that the Gorshkov is junk and a rust bucket.
I believe that until it serves in the IN for a long period of time without mishap, it is one of the WORST acquisitions the IN has ever made.
And literally speaking, before the deal, the Gorshkov was junk and a rust bucket.
A lot of the money is going into scraping the rust off and putting stuff in it to move it from junkyard status to operational status.
You did not respod to the post that i made with a sense to debate or discuss in a good manner. See for yourself your reply to the article that I posted on the wage increase. You should be asking yourself the above questions that you asked me.
My reply was perfectly appropriate.
Sevmash’s increasing the wage of its workers, based upon my tax money does not impress me.
And I fail to see its relevance to the thread, bar a tangential reference to the increasing labour costs in Russia.
You can resort to trolling. You joined in 2006 and still you did not post any facts or articles.
I have posted hundreds of articles on this forum.
More research and fewer personal attacks from your side would help.
The thread started with a real bad report from the Indian media and no one responded to it. So I responded to it and to the posts which was based on that article. So basically it was you who for unknown reason want to derail the thread by trolling without even having going through the articles and postes made by fellow members.
I have gone through all the articles and reports. Not agreeing to your extremely subjective POV is not equal to trolling.
One may well argue that you derailed the thread by spamming it with a dozen posts, twice.
I didnt.
Have the courtesy to respond likewise.
Did i say the quoted figure is the definite one?
Your posts constantly imply that. They portray the belief that the price has been fixed at a higher level than before the CNSs statement to the Russian side.
There is no certainty it is so.
Why are you crying on that?
I am not “crying on that”. Crying on the price wont help. But it is my taxmoney in part going to such an illadvised project and I am well within my rights to point out the issue.
Btw, how come you are definite that Gorshkov was a junk and Idian Navy is doing charity?
Everything I have read about the project so far shows how badly it was planned, implemented and finally gypped from the Russian side.
The IN has often done “charity”, all three services have, in terms of acquisitions. The amount of nonserviceable, whimsical acquisitions has been considerable.
All the four points you mentioned are what you need to follow. Practice what you preach. I have tried posting without insulting or branding others and it would be good if you can improve your behaviour. See your own posts in other threads.
1. You have constantly abused people in this thread.
2. I practise what I preach.
3. I see no reason to take abuse.
4. It would be good if you refrained from personal attacks.
If you have read the articles you would have come to realise that, the articles that i posted was not basically on the cost esclation and included the status of the modernisation and some clarification for wrong info from the article which started this thread. Really surpring that you claim to have gone through the articles posted in the thread and still culd figure out only the cost related part.
1.That is your interpretation.
2.You are posting articles which still dont provide any certainty that the Russians wont renege on their contract again, which makes the price issue moot.
3.The PR articles from Sevmash need to be taken with a grain of salt, given the wide gulf between their claims & later reality.
So thats it, I will try not to entertain any of your post intended to derail the thread. If your only aim to post is to troll and increase your post countss you can continue with your habbits. But if you are into a sensible discussion, you can count on me. I am not the kind of person who resorts to insulting others or post to increase my post count. Sensible discussion is what I am here for.
If sensible discussion is what you are here for, then please behave accordingly.
Your behaviour reflects what you are, or are not, rather than anything else. Kindly consider the same.
Nick_76Read what i replied to Swerve on the posts.
Your posts vis Unicorn & I were also abusive.
That wasn’t agressive from my side. I replied to him in an earlier post as to why my post come in a row. probably he skipped reading it and posted the same thing to which i responded. I did not attack you, rather it was you who tried branding me like you have been branding others in the forum. See for yiurself in the thread you posted. PAK-FA thread, Asian fighters etc. If you tone down your tone, the discussion would be much better. But if your intention is trolling, you can continue doing it without reading the articles posted in the thread
1. Your calling others trolls doesnt excuse your behaviour.
2. I havent “branded” you. You are doing that on your own.
3. References to molesters in Mumbai, 3rd rate politicians etc are not acceptable behaviour.
4. I merely said “too much text” – your response was abuse.
5. I have posted in many threads- in which there were sensible posters & in which there werent.
6. My intent is to debate. Your intent apparently, is to have a free run with your claims and accuse all those who disagree with you as molesters, 3rd rate politicians & trolls.
Funny.
Funny again. Playing victim. Shameful.
I am glad you are amused.
If you would be more civil in the future, I would be more glad as well.
I did not. I was replying to his post which contained so much of info – as you may want to comnvey.
Calling someones post nonsense and posting as such is not an informative reply.
Absolutely not. I was just replying to what you were posting quoting my posts.
I see.
Molester, 3rd rate politician Bal “Thackry”, “Maharashtrian”. These are all “replies”.
Play the victim by putting blame on others.Thats also part of trolling.
Ah.
Pointing out abuse = “trolling”.
Perhaps we should all roll over and accept that we are third rate politicians and molesters?
Thats what I want to tell you. be less agressive, stop branding posters, stop bad languages, stop being arrogant. All that is only possible if EGO is kept out. If you are seriously interested in a discussion other than trolling. Read the articles posted in the thread before posting. All the best to you. Hope you will try to improve your habbit of treating other posters in the forum.
Nice advice, coming from somebody who has done the exact opposite.
Join date? May 2008. Contribution to discussion? See below:
Ego? Check.
Bad Language? Check. “Smart ****”. “Molester”, “3rd rate politician”
Branding posters? See above.
Heard of denial?
A lot of space have been wasted due to non-tpoic replies which can be avoided if posters like you behave little better. try to look into the threads where you have posted and how much space have been wasted.
“Posters like you behave little better”.
Obviously, you are beyond censure.
The rest of us are, molesters, Bal “Thackry’s”, 3rd rate politicians, trolls etc.
And all for pointing out that India is getting gypped on the Gorshkov deal and it could have done better.
I leave you to your wonderful Gorshkov and its amazing success.
I am sure that with your lack of ego, your lack of bad language, your excellent behaviour and sensible replies, you can convince everyone on this thread, about how superb the Gorshkov is, how Sevmash is the best yard on this planet, and how all the rest of us dont know anything.
Good luck.
Nick_76More to the point, is the SU-34 even survivable in todays massively networked IADS setup?
With dozens of networked radars and SAMs, isnt the SU-34 just an anachronism? Why not modify Su-27s with standoff weaponry instead, rather than developing a purpose built bomber at terrific cost, which is already obsolete?
Nick_76Btw, are you? No.
No. Which is why I dont make a claim that the final price will be surely x.
If your intention of posting in the thread was not trolling, you would have atleast read the articles and come to realise that the offer to take back the ship was for the Russian Navy. First go through the articles and reportes posted by posters in the discussion forum. Thats will help you.
Just because some reporter writes something doesnt mean it is accurate. Did the RN officially agree to take back the Gorshkov? No.
Otherwise, your opinion is just that.
Pointing out the above does not make me a troll. OTOH, your inability to hold a discussion without getting hysterical might indeed make you one.
Posters coming just for trolling mostly do not read the already posted article and reports. If your intention have been for a sensible discussion other than trolling, you would have come to know about the cost-escalation figures of $1.2billion & $2.0billion.
1. The first suits you. Join date May 2008, only posts on this thread & attacks against several members. So have you come here mostly for trolling?
2. We dont know the final price as settled b/w the IN & Sevmash.
3. Which I have already pointed out thrice to you. (This is the third time)
4. Less personal attacks and more debate please.
So before posting, atleast go through the article & reports posted in the thread like all other posters do. It will help you to post sensible replies other than just trolling.
1. Less personal attacks and more constructive discussion would help.
2. I have read all the articles, and I dont see anything that would make me certain about what the final price will be.
3. Unless you are on the negotiating team, and the final price is settled, all you have is subjective speculation.
4. My replies are sensible – I do wish you would provide the same.
Nick_76so thats what all you have to offer. :rolleyes:
Huh?:confused:
btw, the five points that you made are yours own, fits you best from the post that you made here and the ones that you were making in the PAk-FA thread calling & branding others. It was you who started the Victor’s stuff, so let me believe you have nothing to offer as a reply on the questions that I asked you and is meant to ruin any meaniful discussion and meant for trolling.
1.The points suit you to a T. Three members here, Unicorn, Swerve and now I have asked you to tone down, post sensibly and not SPAM us with posts.
2. You responded with abuse. You said Unicorn was “bluffing” above. Then you attacked me.
3. The PAKFA thread is irrelevant to this discussion. Nor have I behaved as you allege in the PAKFA thread. Nor am I interested in your juvenile mudslinging.
4. You are the one raving, ranting, gibbering all over this thread, attacking others and calling them trolls, devils advocate, 3rd rate politicians, molesters etc. Your posts are quoted above.
5. Victor made a post based on his point of view. You attacked him. I merely pointed out his point of view may be as correct as yours.
6. You responded with more abuse.
7. Be more civil.
I have nothing to be shamefull about other than the number of post that some posters have found difficult to read.
Your abuse & lack of civility is also shameful.
If you understood the above, then you shouldnt have attacked us for pointing out that your posts were difficult to read and too many in sequence.
I will be trying to avoid that in the future.
Good.
Unlike you, I have not been in the fairy land out of tocuh with reality and putting the blame on others & branding them.
See above.
Less aggressive behaviour would help.
Nick_76Going from $750million to $1.2billion to $2.0billion is not considerd as reducing the price in the real world.
So now you are part of the negotiation team and know what the final settled price will be?
They can very well swallow the MiG-29Ks if they are going to have the Gorshkov. They would not have to order MiG-29Ks when the ship is ready and they can put a fully combat carrier into their Northern fleet. No big deal for them.
And now you know the Russian Navy’s plans as well.
yeah thats what it is and probably we might have to pay an additional $1.2billion. If not, pull out with refund and invest it in 2nd unit of IAC as early as possile.
First you said $ 2 Bn, and now you are saying $ 1.2 Bn. Make up your mind.
Nick_76I see, so the 3rd rate politician fits you best. keep it up dude. trolling fits you best :p :p
Well If I am the third rate politician. I know what you are, you were one of the crowd you mentioned, doing what all you said. Shameful. You seem to be the type.
Oh Boy, what happened to your rant regarding Victors post. You have not yet replied to what I asked. if you did not have anything to offer on what I asked Victor, you should not have been playing a devil’s advocate. Just troling around is your hobby then. 😉
1. I have replied to all your posts.
2. I am not ranting, you are.
3. You are the troll, not I
4. Less ranting, more facts would help.
5. Victor will reply to you when he wants. Be patient. People here are not your slaves.
Nick_76you probably missed a lot during your choreography 😀
I missed your cheerleading for Gorshkov as well. Poor me. :p
it was after the IN chief talked political (politics are barred from the Indian service) that the things got even messy. Did the Russians reduce the price after the IN chief showed his whip? No. They sticked on to the cost-escalation of $1.2billion and offered to Take back the ship if Indian Navy is not ready to pay for the additional work.
How do you know the Russians didnt reduce their price? And second, how do you know the CNS didnt make his comments public w/ a bit of wink, nod, nudge from the MOD, and it wasnt a charade. Many such affairs have occurred. Third, the Russians will also have to swallow the MiG-29K’s as well.
Thats the only thing which happened after IN chie’s comment. he might have said it out of frustration, but it was not timed right. They now are demanding almost $2billion if the reportrs are to be believed.
They tend to demand a lot, we tend to not agree to anything. A middle ground is usually reached, and life goes on. 😉
Nick_76Funny post again. But Indian navy doesn’t seem to agree with you. 😀
Oh they do. Which is why the CNS gave a verbal slap to Sevmash/ROE after which the negotiation team magically appeared in India. 😉
Probably you are the comic relief here?
How can I compare myself to you. 😉 😀
Keep up your digging and theories alive. All the Best
No digging required. No theories as well. We can see practical applications right here. 😀
Nick_76if the Gorshkov guys have the habbit, then stick to your own habbit. And let the deal be doomed. Why waste the time with non-ending negotiations??
Negotiations were done a long time back. Its the Russians who broke the contract.
And India needs the Gorshkov because the Navy planned for it within a particular time frame.
yes… he said INS Vikramaditya is 30 year old and I said INS Shivalik will be 8 years old by the time it gets incucted.
INS Shivalik is a new build. INS Vikramaditya is an old rusted hull being overhauled to make it operational, with no guarantee that the work is being done properly, if the news that is coming out of Sevmash is any indicator.
he skipped the reple, since you seems to be the devils advocat, you answer me the following. If your only intention is to troll & flame, as you have been doing in PAk-FA thread you can skip the reply with some smart **** replies.
Dude, understand the language in which you are flaming every poster on this thread. Somebody who doesnt automatically follow your POV is neither a devils advocate or a troll or flamer. And no, I havent done either in the PAK-FA thread. And second, less cursing would help. This is a forum, not some Mumbai street.
1) how much naval contracts did Indian give the Russians for them to tide over their financial crisis in the 90s?
2) show me the Indian yards which have built over 100 vessels in the past decade and more, comparable to the sevmash which was said to be out of work.
1. What is the relevance of 1? Is India supposed to be Russia’s cash cow?
2. That makes Sevmash’s mess up of the Gorshkov and the excuses given by them, even more worthless.
we will have to wait and watch. But that would be stupid. As I earlier mentioned do a stern decesion now. take or Leave. Else we would only be getting into more trouble. Russian have the cash now and they would be only happy to get a modified Gorshkov into their service, which most likely will be put into service in the Artic.
We cant leave because the IN needs the Gorshkov, otherwise half the service life of those MiG-29K’s is gone, and the IN is left without air cover for its flotilla. Against MPA’s and fighters.
it would have been good to have the Gorshkov, but if we still want to play around the price. Its not going to happen and we are wasting our time & money. better ask for refund and put that money into IAC and for 2nd IAC as soon as possible.
We are not playing around with the price. We are asking the Russians to honor their contract. I would agree with you on the above about refunds & IAC, but just throwing money into the IAC project wont speed things up. Its a first time project, and there is always a learning curve involved.
Nick_76why do u have to reply to him if his posts are so much senseless. You can ignore them?
1. Because it was addressed to me.
2. Why did you have to jump into a conversation which was of no relevance to you, you could have ignored it? 😀
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