Nick_76why China wont buy? I would Syria and Irak to the list. as i dont think Irakis will share same weopons as Jordnnains or other persian gulf countries in long run. And Russia is going to add naval base in Syria. 1 or 2 squardons of PAK-FA will be based there at some point. This will give them opportunity to close black sea from Outside.
China wont get the PAK-FA as it is one of the preconditions of India splurging its billions for the PAK-FA. Iraq and Jordan are firmly US camp.
Of course I know I am replying to star49 (which means I am being dumb) but its one of those days.
Nick_76Astra BVR missile successfully tested – Shiv Aroor
Nice clean almost smokeless burn of that motor! The stuff raised up is mostly dust from the kickback.
But dislike those large fins (while they may provide good lift, they mar the clean lines of the missile!!).
Note lugs on missile body, so its pretty much a LSP design for flight trials.
Very interesting press release though, so these are guidance trials:
Press Release: DRDO has successfully conducted two flight tests of Astra beyond Visual Range Air to Air missile on 13 and 14 Sept 2008 from Interim Test Range, Balasore as part of second phase of missile development flight trials. The missiles were launched from a Ground launcher. The main objective of these flight tests were to test mid course guidance of missiles towards manoeuvring target Aircraft using secured data link. Simulated aircraft flight parameters were used for these flight tests. All missile systems comprising of launcher, propulsion, Airframe, mission computer, navigation system, autopilot , flight control system, data link and telemetry system have worked satisfactory and as per design. The team led by Shri Venugopalan, Director, DRDL, Hyderabad, Dr Gollakota, Project Director, Astra, Shri SP Dash, Director, ITR, Balasore, project team and representatives of participating Industry participated successful launch of Astra conducted at Chandipore test range.
Nick_76Rosoboronexport’s arms catalog says it has the capability to operate in an ECM environment, so maybe. Not sure if I’ve seen anything say a definite yes but I’ll investigate.
Thanks SOC, missed this!
Any confirmation?
Nick_76These were the qns I presume..
i3) Looking to make it semi stealthy, might possibly imply a SEAD role. If so, how effective might the above stealth features be and what kind of anti radiation missile would it carry? Possible for something along the lines of R27T?
The aims of the RCS/IR reduction features are to reduce the detection range of the hostile sensors used by the opponent to protect their mobile formations. In that sense, its not pure stealth by any means- the weapons are carried outside, but it should have a much lower spike in the RCS plot than a plain jane ALH WSI which has a broader front, and lesser measures.
On ARMs, perhaps the Kh-25 is a good possibility. I dont know many lightweight ARMs in service. ALARM and HARM are possibles, but they are large rounds, and I wouldnt speculate yet until I know the rated weights per launcher on the LCH.
4) Its been listed to carry AAM’s as well. Most likely to shoot down snooping UAV’s. If so, again what missiles might it carry. Im guessing something along the lines of the R-73 again.
R-73 or a lighter AAM if available.
If so in a SEAD role, What chances might it have with its stealth features against a combat aircraft…lets say a Mig 21 clone with radar.
It would be dead meat against a combat aircraft which has a good look/down shoot down radar unless it flies Nap of the Earth, posing problems for the radar/missile combo on the fighter to pick it up against the ground clutter. No opponent MiG-21 has a BVR capable set yet so WVR will be what it is. And in that scenario, the LCH is at a definite disadvantage, unless it is at range (making radar acquisition harder) and flying away on the deck. The AAMs are for self escort against other choppers not fighters per se.
But I will say this, combat helicopters depend on achieving surprise, and if not, they will definitely have a fighter escort if an enemy CAP is known to be present.
5) On a side tangent…trying to read exactly what DFRM and it capability entails an aircraft to perform. Are Pakistan’s F-16’s DFRM enabled and if not…and what does the lack of this capability actually mean in a combat scenario to the IAF.
Digital Radio Frequency Memory. A sort of must have for modern jammers to enable immediate deception jamming (realtime). The memory module records the key parameters of the radar pulse, allowing for the techniques generator (a purpose built DSP/mini computer) to modify the signal appropriately and the jammer “plays it back”, so that the opponent radar is spoofed. Ie it thinks the target is at x+1, when it is at X, is flying at Y, when it is actually at Y+1, etc, to make the radar lose lock, or get an inaccurate fix.
Pakistan finally signed a deal with a US firm to get (I presume) DRFM equipped sets for its handful of new F-16s. In terms of difference of capability – it doesnt matter that much. For one, the acquisition appears limited, and these are not support jammers for blanking larger IAF radars but self protection units. How well they do against Indian (Russian supplied) RVV-AE/R-77’s is a point of speculation.
On the Indian side, DRFM jammers are widely used, namely the Elta 8222 SPJ which has been seen on IAF Su-30K’s, MKI’s, MiG-21 Bisons, Upg Jaguars & the DARE (DRDO) Tusker which is used on the MiG-27 Upg. A Jaguar squadron reportedly received Support Jammers & the DARE equipped MiG-27s are being used for EW, implying that the EW package is more than just self protection. (It is a combination of an internal and external jammer).
Nick_76Or even worse, the tom tomming of the infallible “Joust” and “Silve” and what not. Of which of course, nobody bar the occasional EF supporter has seen any detailed records, or publically accessible numbers or anything of the sort.
By the same standards, one could trot out the Sukhoi/Russian “estimates” of how effective their products are “versus foreign analogues”, as they put it. Marketing agit-prop sucks gentlemen, leave it be, on both sides of the border.
All said & done, the MKI folks who saw the EF at Indradhanush said it was a fine plane, but nothing that would dwarf their capabilities or the like.
There is one fighter currently which is claimed to have the ability to surpass all others, that being the Raptor. That too elicits some skepticism, but it does have some unique capabilities, notably its stealth & LPI capability that currently put it ahead of all its peers (in terms of fighters in production).
Nick_76Yeah sure. I presume you have had the liberty of flying both types and undertaking a comprehensive evaluation.
Nick_76>>
As per an interview by the ACM of PAF Mr. Tanvir Mehmood, the PAF is “dissatisfied” with the current RD-93 engine, because of it’s low thrust, besides it’s low life.
Heh. As often debated on this forum. Good call.
In my view, this may confirm that because the JF-17 is in the 6.4 ton class, it was underpowered by the 80 kN class of engines, in the same manner as the Tejas and Gripen were found earlier.
Could very well be.
The ACM also stated that a totally new European avionics suite will be sought soon after the compulsory Chinese avionics in the first batch of 50 units. This may indicate that China is unwilling to sell it’s advanced JL-10 radars to PAF (JL-10 radars are in turn reverse-engineered from the Zhuk-M), because it is configured to fire Russian missiles and bombs.
Wouldnt say the PRC radars are necessarily reverse engineered. Giving credit where its due, they have several local types which were developed by themselves.
Second, its also possible that the radars on offer, whether J-10 variants or not, werent as good as those on offer from Thales which is a worldclass manufacturer with substantial experience in airborne FCR’s. Given India’s availability of systems from IAI et al & JV’s for FCR’s, the PAF may have felt the need to go in for a similar system.
Nick_76Eventually all tech advances get countered. I am of the belief however that the F-22s combo will be dominant for many years to come. Shooter radars which ultimately guide the weapons just dont have the power to detect VLO targets at relavent ranges even if cued by the inaccurate long wave radars that are generally massive/imobile/ground based. Shooter radars have exponetial range performance against RCS – the F-22s frontal RCS is apparently in the region where air-based radars asymptote. This is an important note.
The latest radars appear to have enough accuracy to saturate a given area of space with autonomous missiles with multispectral seekers. Have these been developed? No. But the technology already exists. Its all about a need coming forth, enough for a big player like MBDA to see enough money in it. But if stealth becomes ubiquitous, thats where technology will head. Bi/Multistatic systems (see Swedens attempts for eg), more autonomous units, more investments into non conventional sensor systems will take precedence. All in all, I dont see the Raptor being invulnerable beyond the next decade and a half. Thats still a good thing to be, but one wonders whether the US couldnt have spent the money on cheaper and more flexible options for its long term defence needs. The Raptor in some ways, is as much a jobs program as the Euro canards, and other programs worldwide are accused as & a testimony to the fighter mafia who dominate the USAF (as in many other AF’s), who wanted the latest and coolest toy.
Irbis – seems a pretty impressive piece of kit. But the figures released for it are pretty contradictory as mentioned earlier. The 3 m^2 = 400 km and the 0.01 m^2 = 90 km are contradictory. Secondly and most importantly we don’t know what these figures mean. They could be in any mode – as mentioned earlier it could be VS mode or RWS for all we know. This being the upper detection end – when does it allow for guidance of a missile? At 300/60 kms etc etc?
But ignoring this and taking the the value they cite for stealthy targets. Namely 0.01m^2 = 90 km. Against the classified frontal RCS of the F-22, which is reportedly in the region of 0.0001m^2 or the lower end of a metal marbles RCS – The detection range of the Irbis will be slashed to about 28 km (see the asymptote reference above). Which is not near good enough against an F-22 – and with the AIM-120D(reportedly has a range of 180 km?) they might need to detect the F-22 at ranges of 100 km + to have a “chance”.
Irbis figures are consistent, if we go by NIIP/Sukhoi press releases. They stated 350-400 km for a 3 SQ MTr target, which translates to around 90 Km (using 400) for a 0.01 target. 4th scale law.
My point was not about the current Irbis equipped Flanker challenging the Raptor either, but the “future”, which might see entirely new avionics challenges for the Raptors stealth.
Now I know this is the best case scenario for the F-22 and real air combat is as Zare says it is: namely not absolutes. But the F-22 unless seriously outnumbered is generally going to do this all/most of the time. Why? Because of the ESM/EW suite named AN/ALR-94 – with this the Raptor will detect any emission(be it datalink, radio, lasers?, Irbis etc) from a “Super Flanker” well before the Irbis has any knowledge of the F-22. It will then vector in to provide the best KE and VLO advantage while merely super-cruising to the flight of Flankers and dispatching them.
The ALR-94 is not magic. It uses current gen technology and can be replicated by other designers such as Thales, IAI, DARE etc. For all we know the DASS on the EF or SPECTRA on the Rafale are as good as the ALR-94 or even better.
The F-22 weapon system is designed to be undetected/unsuprisable – it can sneak up and kill like a sniper – but doing the same to F-22 in a Flanker class fighter is not going to happen in numerically similar engagements or even ones which favour the Flanker considerably. Unless the Flankers seriously outnumber the F-22s and are scattered throughout the battlespace which prevents the F-22 getting the best VLO/KE characteristics against all Flankers – the F-22 will win almost every time. Many simulations have confirmed this point of view from JOUST to SILVE.
Simulations are simulations. They cannot predict the outcome in a real battle, whether it is Flankers overwhelming JSF’s or Raptors decimating the latter.
The Raptors greatest strength is not the fact its the Raptor. Every US design benefits from the supporting assets the US throws into the battle. An AF flying against the Raptor has to go against the E-3, against Rivet Joints sniffing out their emitters, against Compass calls trying to knock down their C3I..its this integrated system which is practically very hard to challenge. Not just the Raptor etc.
Even if the Flankers somehow detect the F-22 before it has fired its weapons the Flanker will generally be at a much lower energy state probably sub-sonic – it will have its own set of ROEs. How long will that radar take to track/ID an F-22 once it has suddenly been detected it? How much time does this give the pilot to react? How will the weapons cope with a VLO target?
The Flanker/EF/Rafale derivative need not be at the same speed as a Raptor to compensate. It can rely on more advanced weaponry such as Meteor derivatives with multispectral seekers. The point I was making is that there is nothing in the Raptor which is impossible to defeat without some nifty engineering. All that takes is consistent effort + money.
Saying the F-22s AN/APG-77 can’t detect the new Flankers in LPI mode at considerable ranges is stupidity at its best.
Care to point out who said that? Or is that some strawman?
Even modern IRST/Super IRSTs have huge drawbacks – such as the volume of airspace one can scan. Range against supersonic non-afterburning targets. Weather. Laser warning recievers have top notch accuracy with accurate triangulation possible on board a single platform/AC.
All these problems existed with early gen radars as well. Technology evolved, and so can IRSTs and radar technology. Its all a question of need and investment.
Nick_76I agree the if the Raptor is flown correctly/smartly, then BVR is where the main fight will be. Where I disagree is that it isn’t deadly in the WVR too, though it’s assuming greater risk by getting into that realm. I don’t think it’s a huge assumption to think that late model F-15/16/18s with their avionics, would not provide reasonable indications of performance vs. Russian aircraft.
The Raptor is good in WVR, but its not overwhelmingly superior to the Super Flankers. They have TVC, and right now, an edge on the Raptor with a de facto standard HMCS plus IRST & of course, HOBS missiles.
There is no “reasonable”, that can be expected from the Raptor, to be frank. At the costs its being purchased at, it has to dominate. And a WVR battle where it runs the chance of losing to even a Bison or a cheap upgrade thanks to the capabilities of modern 5G AAM’s…whats the point?
The point of the Raptor is to dominate the BVR game..question is whether real wartime ROE vs a potent rival, such as the PRC will allow for the exchange ratios achieved in US exercises to be achieved. Anyway, it is a mugs game. The last time the US fought a great power directly (when its rival was tech limited but had manpower to compensate) was in the Korean war. After that, its been war by proxy or interventions against third rate junta’s and incompetent users for the most part, bar the occasional skilled but heavily outmatched adversary, such as the Serbs.
So the Raptor should do fine in the above situations. Since it will always fight in a scenario when it is supported by a plethora of assets, flown by good pilots and will be against some AF which is in no position to compete with the US. (Iranian AF for eg., which curiosity factor apart, is flying yesterdays stuff today and barely managing).
Nick_76That was just an example, not the only occurrence during exercises. I’m not sure what Block variant the F-16 was, but I have no reason to assume that it was a -25 vs. a -40/50/52. My point was that it got close enough for a gun kill, undetected. We can speculate about the LPI, but were I a Flanker pilot, I wouldn’t want to take it for granted that I’ll know the Raptor is present. I also wouldn’t take for granted that every F-15/16/18 that the F-22 has trained with has less than the latest gear on board. Maybe some don’t, but I wouldn’t make any sweeping generalizations, or assume that a Russian pilot would have any more situational awareness given the same conditions.
Point is that the article excerpt you quoted nowhere justifies F-15s/F-16s being hapless and gunned down by Raptors as a given, which your statement seemed to support, as compared to the skeptical vein in which I had first raised it.
By the standards referenced above, I could show you many cases where “X” type got gunned down by “Y” type, in some cases wherein Y was inferior to X. A Su-30K gunned down by a MiG-21 Bis..does this imply that the Su-30 is hapless?
My simple point is that if a F-22 closes in to WVR, its an indication something got messed up or the F-22 force is fighting with their backs to the wall. The obscene cost of the aircraft is entirely for its stealth, high flying and long range BVR battle capability. Not for creating the most nimble dogfighter, because in WVR, “everyone dies at the same rate”, as the saying goes.
Nick_76Well qn is whether they even have any firm plan to develop the same, or its just another marketing gimmick. A look at the JSF and F-22 programs shows how expensive and time consuming such endeavours to make the “next generation” warplane, can be.
Nick_76The F-15/16s never even knew that the Raptors were around, when those gun kills were made.
http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story_channel.jsp?channel=defense&id=news/aw010807p1.xml
“While it wasn’t part of a hard-turning furball, an F-22–with its Amraams and Sidewinders expended–slipped into visual range behind an F-16 and undetected made a simulated kill with its cannon during the stealth fighter’s first large-scale exercise and deployment outside the continental U.S. “
Have TVC, HOBS, and HMCS only works if you know there’s an enemy aircraft nearby.
So a gun kill against “one” F-16 translates to some kind of uber capability in WVR?
For all we know the F-16 pilot wasnt checking his six as he ought to have. And what was it, a Block 25 Viper?
Not exactly a Super Flanker either.
And yeah, the latest bunch of digital receiver equipped RWR’s/ESM gear could have the ability to detect LPI. Given the RMA in COTS tech thats been underway, its only likely that the Raptors LPI radar is not going to give it a Romulan screen forever.
Nick_76The 6th gen designation seemed vapourware to me. Didnt appear to be an all new fighter but a development of the F/A-18 E/F? I could be wrong but thats what I remember.
Nick_76LOL, that was funny but true. Guess then they’ll buy, 6 th Gen Super Hornet, as Boeing recently advertised.
Seeing the way the RAAF is bulking up – for what? Indo’s handful of Flankers? RMAF’s barely 1-2 squadrons of MKMs?
But their money to splurge/effectively defend themselves/ whatever.
So their call.
Nick_76Mr P is going to go the way of folks like Kim Jong Il, grubby and holding on to power till the cows come home. Even the Karuna defection hasnt worked out too well in that regard.
I definitely think India should take a greater interest in SL stability (but not interfere in internal matters). The Indian defence industry has gone through a sea change in the past decade as a variety of products spanning a range of capabilities are available, and India can definitely meet SL needs for most items.
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