Nick_76the brits made the indian diplomats agree to field the MKI . the indians should have made them field the typhoon.
RAF bringing awacs??news reports say 8 tronados n VC 10.
Lets see whether the MKI was used in BVR or whether it was used in WVR, or just plain old misreportage, K/Mks instead of MKIs/
Nick_76And what would Russia do with those older MiG-29 versions? Why would it want to refurbish and find customers for them on its own coin?
Nick_76There is very very little space in that bird to fit anything new, and the demands of modern aviation are such, that you sometimes need to add, not just replace! Hats off to the ingenuity of British engineers, who designed this bird, and continue to keep adding kit one way or the other!
Nick_76The S300V is currently being marketed to India to be the cornerstone of its proposed countrywide ATBM system, though they seem to be more interested in the S-400 (if its available) plus their favourite Arrow ATBM from Israel, which cannot be acquired unless the US allows for it.
Nick_76Real or not, the photo is awesome. Just wish it was in higher resolution! 🙁
Nick_76The F.3 with the AWACs data fed by datalink, plus its AMRAAMs is excellent @ BVR. The Indians will have a very tough time on their hands, without AWACs on their side as well.
But as a learning experience, this will be second to none for even the Indian side in terms of BVR.
Nick_76http://www.janes.com/defence/air_forces/news/jdw/jdw060109_2_n.shtml
By a 110% ratio, the engines ordered and delivered are enough of a production-run of 140 J-10 minimum.
India did order more engines from GE too and has postphoned the introduction of the ‘Kaveri’, when the other problems are still alive.
China was clever enough to spent enough money for foreign expertise, when India is forced to bridge the capability gap, which is open-up by more MiG-29s.
If the avionics, software of the J-10 and the related combat-capabilities are up to specifications does not matter. China is getting real data and expertise from the AF-units now, when the LCA is still under producer conditions only. To bring the LCA to success India has to buy more foreign expertise and field the limited LCA already. Even if it demands to put an “ordinary” radar inside as an interim solution. For the benefit of India, the military have to live with a reduced capability LCA for a while. (Similar thing with the new Indian MBT)
Those are valid points but there are also other factors in play which relate to how the differing countries respective services procure items-
On India, there is no arms embargo from the west- so there is always a competing requirement to buy the latest available item and spread the budget between the local alternative and whats available elsewhere. This splits the production run between massive orders at one go, to a more spread out batch- as in the case of the LCA. Since in India, the services determine procurement, and the manufacturers have limited say, the formers procurement decisions stick.
Another thing is – the LCA as a whole may not be in service yet, but many of its key electronics/ avionics items are already being tested- its MC/DP and lots of other stuff are on the MKI, many more items including its HOTAS/ ECS plus the above are on the Jag/ MiG upgrades, its composite tech is being aggressively applied to MiGs, Sukhois and others..so the IAF is getting a good look at what its going to get & building up some training for it. This makes for rational logistics in terms of test equipment and trainng too.
The key thing, which you have correctly pointed out & which the IAF will be unfamiliar with, is the engine- that will of course need some time to fix/ manufacture/ get used to .
Nick_76There is no way to argue with an “aggresive member” – even a doctor will fail to point to the missing s !
‘J-10 versus LCA-AESA’ shows the will of the related countries to master new technologies of 4th generation fighters at least, like FBW f.e. If they will succeed to all goals is still questionable, but a usefull number of that will bring the experiences, which no money in the world can buy alone. The Formula One gives an idea about that, where Toyota is no newbe in building cars f.e. !
Oh the belief in repetitive aggression, by aggresive member (sic.) works in just grinding down people…after all, being in school, no day job with tons of time and an internet connection helps in just being as boorish as possible till people say whatever and leave..a tried and tested tactic apparently, so they keep using it.. :rolleyes:
Nick_76I did explain why I beleive the J10 is more capable then the FC1 in a post to harry and another post to cabbagemen. You just have blinders on that stopped you seeing them. And anyways, I have yet to see *anything* from you as to why my claims are ‘exceedingly stupid’ or ‘bizarre’? :rolleyes:
Right, make them up after getting caught out..funny how all the “explanations” come out after being found on a sticky wicket…
Typical dumbass attempt to twist and spin.
For the nth time, we are not discussing you ..
What shameless theatrics. Bravo. :rolleyes:
Wow, the prima donna of rabid hyperbole giving a certificate.. :rolleyes:
Brainless droning. Some posters from a certain part of the world think that they found the ultimate weapon to kill off any attempt at debate about anything that they do not like to acknoeledge by endlessly chanting about ‘exact figures’ and refusing to see anything else only because they know that exact figures are almost impossible to come by, even for old weapons systems never mind new ones. People like you have no interest in the truth or in expanding their knowledge, all you are interested in is propergating your view of the world, and you would mindlessly attack anyone who you see as an obsticle to your goal. Why the likes of you are tolerated here is not such a great mystery when one really thinks about it.
More drivel…this forum, sadly for you, is not a Greater china fanboy board where you can claim all sorts of nonsense and not get called on it. The fact that you dont have any sort of figures but yet spout off, only testifies to your desire to spout off, but without any sort of exact rationale to back you up..wonderful.. :rolleyes:
So if you dont have the figures, admit to it & walk on…dont sit and complain about how unfair it is to be asked for figures.. :rolleyes:
Some people have become so used to twisting and lying that they don’t even realise they are doing it anymore, apparently. :rolleyes:
Exactly, so change your behaviour will you.. :rolleyes:
Typical flameboy tactics, when loosing an argument, bring in other issues to try and divert attention. You were amusing for a while, but your transparency and lack of imagination is quickly diminishing your entertainment worth.
ROTFL…for one so willing to dish out insults, when its pointed out to you that you lack any sort of locus standi to act like a boor, you resort to more theatrics..
Yes they can, ever heard about monthwash?
I never heard about that, is it washing once a month? Not interested in your concept of hygiene….. :rolleyes:
So what have you done with all those years to still have the maturity of a juvie? :rolleyes:
Sorry, not in your age group…go find some kiddie to exchange these insults with will ya? On the internet of course, safe behind some keyboard and macho “aggressive titles”… :rolleyes:
Yawn, lack of imagination not to meantion skill.
Well get professional help, then.
Well, the world can be a complex place for those of us not enlightened by ‘the way of the drone’, so instead of mindlessly chanting after the great drone leader, we have to make up our own minds with the limited information available and have to make assmuptions from time to time.
We are not talking of your fascination with the communist party here..
So asking you to quote me to back up your claims is ‘Blah di blah blah’? You can’t even find a dignified way to dodge a question. How pathetic. :rolleyes:
Is there anything even remotely dignified about the way you talk & comport yourself, even if online? Do you expect your bizarre temper tantrums to be rewarded?
Arh, yet more pathetic attempts to flame and hurl personal insult. I am a patriot and love my country, but I do not toe the party line, there are plenty of things I disagree with about how China is run. But thats just your attempt to change the subject isn’t it? And what does my current residence have to do with anything? :rolleyes:
Dont abuse the term “patriot” by comparing your rabid jingoism with the same. Never mind, go tow the party line on Taiwan, Tibet or something & get back when you have it all out of your system..
A shame that your current residence has not sobered you up, but then nothings perfect, is it.
Anyways, when have i ever said anything about India? The overwhelming trend here is Indians taking every opportunity to bash China and flame in Chinese related threads. That is the only reason any Chinese poster have a problem with anything Indian. You lot have got a lot of issues to work out, because all this bitterness, envy and denial is just not healthy.
I cannot even begin to describe the level of delusion you are operating under-your every other post has some aside about India, an idee fixe’ if anything…the fact is you cannot handle any critique of China “patriot”, and come out screaming like a banshee with invective. Get used to free speech. Now that you are in the UK (which passport do you hold btw?) get a good grip on the concept and what it means…do you some good…instead of screaming @ the enemy Indians who are responsible for everything, daring to talk about PLA Wolf’s , the aggressive members PRC, what they forgot to read his title?.. :rolleyes:
Yes, I shouldn’t have sank to your level. Its beneath my dignity.
Right…what with all the invective from the word go…you are already at a level which the word dignity cannot even begin to comprehend mate..
Typical drone tactics. Can’t argue with reason or logic or overwhelming facts, yes facts, so go demand something, anything that people can’t get and wave that about as evidence of your victory. :rolleyes:
Dunno – where I come from, people demand evidence…if you cant produce it, a pity for you..dont you have any deep contacts within the PLA you can razzle dazzle us with? After all, with all the deep knowledge that you display, wheres all that based out of then, eh?
Or is it one more case of internet foot – in – the- mouth itis, where you talk smack but cant back up anything of what you say & then resort to shouting down those who ask you to put your money where your mouth is? :rolleyes:
am getting bored of all your repetative droning. It is clear that it is a waste of time trying to reason with a drone who rejects anything and everything that does not fit with their view of how the universe should be.
Looked in the mirror sometime? Trying to reason with fanaticism & jingoism is a waste of my time, but occasionally it serves to drag you down to reality.
Nick_76Su-30 MKs vs MKIs. Journos cannot make out the difference. MK designation apart, the MKs are basically K’s.
Nick_76Why didn’t Afghanistan count? Because it wasn’t russia that was invaded?
Additionally the germanistic country was busy at various theaters, who knows how it could have ended if they concentrated on russia only…
But it doesn’t matter its history and hopefully we will never see such wars again, but I’m quite pesimistic about that.
Afghanistan was anything but a military loss…they stayed, they dominated, till the political situation back home in the Soviet Union made it no longer viable to stay on, for whatever tenuous strategic reason..heck, even USian sources are now looking at the Russian experience in Afghanistan in a new light, now that the Cold War blinkers are off & there is no need to p!$s off the Russians by playing up a Russian “defeat”.
About Germany & Russia, if, ifs and buts were horses..we’d have an Army..its Germanys fault that it bit off more than it could chew!
If you are looking up for a Russian f-up, then look at the first Chechnyan war, at least the battle for Grozny, now that was a big f-up, not the Afghan conflict.
Nick_76nick that that HAL orderbook list u provided doesnt include the M2k upgrade.isnt the HAL goin to do that?
I left it out as its going to be in the next five year plan, but yes its on the cards. The Mirages are excellent as A2G strikers and EW aircraft. The MKI is superb in A2A, plus there are the R77 armed Bisons and the MiG-29s. With excellent uptime, and high reliability, the Mirage 2000 upgrade can wait. Plus remember, upgrades take time, and take aircraft off the flightline- the IAF has to stagger upgrades, so the MiG-29s will go first, once they are done, the Mirages will follow. What with all the aircraft being phased out, every plane cant be upgraded in one go. Even in A2A, the Mirages have BVR ability with their Super 530Ds.
btw last news about arjunMk2 was that it has already passed field trials and are ready for induction.how many of the 124 previously ordered r going to be M2k standards?any ideas?AFAIK the mk1 with the older FCS has a erratic first hit % of 20-80%.
Acc. to everything I have read, the Mk2 project is under development, many iterative design improvements have been made to the standard Arjun already which in terms of design features is quite good enough-
-Integrated crew protection, with blast off panels
– Heavy armour tested against all potential threats
– Full battle management system
– Defensive aids system with LWRs, anti thermal smoke dischargers
The Arjun FCS on the MK1 is rated @ 90% first hit. Its imported thermal imager had issues with heat earlier on in trials this year but it has been ruggedised, & the FCS itself has replaced the original 20-80% one which was imported and based on analogue electronics which seized up in the heat. The current one has autotracking & is being integrated with the LAHAT from IAI..its state of the art.
The issue is of getting Arjun production @ the Tank factory in Avadi stabilized with requisite quality being maintained throughout the LSP batch. That is why production engineers call it LSP, with an emphasis on L ie limited. Its ordered to work out all the kinks that would occur in full scale series production. Once that is done, expect more Arjun orders to come in.
The IA works methodically- if they order a huge chunk of Arjuns straight away, when these ones will themselves take 3 years to deliver @ minimum, they surrender a chunk of that money to the production agency , they’d rather use it now for other stuff…IA is currently midway through a massive modernisation..with over 300 projects going on, so use up all your current Rs/- for the present budget & then methodically proceed to the next budget for the next tranche of items, which will be available by then anyways (since current production is still underway).
In the meantime, work on the logistics necessary as well, which are qualitatively different from whats required for the T-72/90 tanks
http://www.deccanherald.com/deccanherald/May282006/state172102006527.asp
Sunday, May 28, 2006
Bharat Earth Movers Ltd. (BEML) on Saturday rolled out 29 of the 178 Bogie Flat Arjun Tank (BFAT) wagons of military rail ordered by the Army.
Rest in article..
Picked up most of the above from BR, its a treasure trove of articles & info..
Nick_76Meanwhile
Defence brass on ‘secret’ Israel trips
Sources say the bilateral relationship is only going to grow in the coming years, with negotiations or joint R&D projects underway for more advanced radars, long-endurance and high-altitude UAVs (unmanned aerial vehicles), electronic warfare systems, third-generation night-fighting capabilities and the like.
Missiles and anti-missile defence systems, of course, remain a priority area.
“A wide array of missiles, ranging from Crystal Maze air-to-surface and Python air-to-air missiles to Popeye cruise missiles, have already been contracted or are being negotiated,” said sources.
The Navy, for instance, is pursuing the joint project to develop long-range surface-to-air missile systems to succeed the Barak-I anti-missile defence systems already inducted on several Indian warships. “While Barak-I has a 9-km-range, the new missiles will have a 60-km range,” said sources.
India is also looking closely at the Israeli Arrow-II anti-ballistic missile defence system. India, incidentally, acquired two Green Pine early-warning and fire-control radars, a crucial component of the Arrow system which can detect and track hostile missiles from 500 km away, in 2001-2002.
IAF, on its part, is keen to acquire some more Aerostat radars, basically phased-array radars mounted on blimp-like balloons tethered to ground, to bolster air defence capabilities.
“The final acceptance trials of the two Israeli Aerostat radars we got earlier are taking place in Gujarat and Punjab now. But, we need at least 10 more such radars. Though expensive, one Aerostat can substitute for 30-40 ground-based radars in providing three-dimensional low-altitude coverage,” said sources.
During his visit, ACM Tyagi also reviewed the progress of the $1.1-billion ‘Phalcon’ project, with the first of the three AWACS (airborne warning and control systems) scheduled for induction in November 2007.
Israel is helping with the modernisation of India’s Russian-origin platforms ranging from MiG-21s and MiG-27s to the T-72 tanks, apart from several other joint R&D projects.
Pythons for the IAF. The Python 5 is pretty much one of the best IIR AAMs around.
Crystal Maze has already been ordered its basically a Popeye derivative for the IAFs Mirage 2000’s. The enhanced/ standard Popeye variants can go on the Su-30 MKIs.
And BDL was planning to license manufacture R73E’s as well.
Nick_76You dont think that IAF may just adopt limited numbers like the Army did with Arjun? and what we might see is that LCA will turn into a tech demonstrator and stepping stone for a MCA project? Afterall, it seems that any aircraft that will form part of teh MRCA deal will be superior to the LCA?
Muns said it well…having talked to an Army officer recently, the issue is not the Arjun, its the Army…its a tank too expensive for them…for one Arjun you can upgrade a bunch of T-72s or build upto 3 new ones..second, its reliability of production has to be established @ the tank factory.
The LCAs case is different…different service, different procurement plans. Even the Marut, which was never developed to its full potential in follow on variants had 145 produced, with 130 in IAF service.
Today the situation is markedly better..seniormost IAF pilots have been assigned to the LCA project when they are much in demand for the new raisings (Jaguar, Sukhoi) & the IAF chief is on record asking for the plane fast…if it was to just remain in TD mode, the IAF would never commit to the batch of 20…thats coming from its operational budget. Simply put, they have invested substantially in the project. Last, the Navy has also asked for the LCA come what may…they are even the launch customers for a marine version of the turbine whenever its available.
I would put the LCA @ as an essential part of the IAF in the coming years, they are simply retiring huge # of planes & need replacements to bulk upto their optimum, and even the MRCAs and MKIs wont fill all the numbers. As the IAF CAS has noted, the minimum combat strength the IAF aspires towards is the earlier sanctioned 39 squadron level, with aircraft dipping to the 26.5 level (without the MRCA), which will add another 6 Squadrons, and with more retirements thereafter- older 27s, oldest batches of Jaguars, the number of positions available for the LCA are substantial. We are looking at a ~ 180 production run minimum, for squadron service (IAF + IN), plus another 20 for attrition reserves (IAF) and thats an order of ~ 200.
The LCAs design is suitable for a LIFT role as well & a squadrons worth of LCAs may be picked up by AFA to supplement the AJT’s/ CATs as well.
What is REALLY to the LCAs advantage is its cost. Even if it were to balloon to $30 Mln USD/ unit, from the projected 20-22, its a huge amount cheaper than anything India can purchase from outside, factoring in all the TOT + license production costs which India always prefers. For the LCA, since the development costs = money already spent, by the time it runs into service-the unit flyaway cost (plus the cheaper locally sourced spares) are all what will matter to the IAF plus HAL doesnt need the LCA to write off development costs since GOI spent that money.
As regards the MRCA and the LCA, the Su-30 MKI & MRCA deals are a boon for the LCA…with the MKI, India is getting critical engine manufacturing technology, not to mention other stuff which help it for its future projects, the MRCA according to all reports, is being built around license production of a state of the art FCR…these are all huge gains for the Indian aerospace industry. The most overlooked thing is the offset clause, with 30% offsets built into the deal…thats basically 30% of the MRCA purchase (apart from the TOT) being directed especially for bulking up the Indian aerospace sector, including the mushrooming private companies.
Nick_76NDTV Correspondent
Tuesday, October 3, 2006 (New Delhi):
The Indian Air Force had temporarily suspended flying for two squadrons based at Adampur in Punjab.
The suspension came in the wake of recent crashes of the MiG-29 fighter planes in the past few months.
Four aircraft of the MiG series — two MiG-21s and two MiG-29s — are among the five jets lost by the IAF this year.
Another MiG-29 crashed near Jamnagar in Gujarat in June. The IAF lost eight jets last year.
The ones at Adampur. The Jamnagar one is running.
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