But what when wrong ?

I mean, when your own country planes stands pretty well or, which sound more appropriate in this case, impressively well against supposedly more advanced planes (and certainly more expensive ;)), the national press is pretty happy to provide at least some hints on why it went this well for theirs national pilots.

At least, when some French fighters did a 40 to 1 score at some NATO training, it was on french tv news reports. It was hard not to know about it. And for planes lovers as us, a reason was readily given (introduction of the Mica and RDY radar… quite different from the old Matra Super 530 the opponents were expecting. The next times were different!).

Here it sounds just like “they did it! Wooh ! End of story!”. Is the Greek press so different from the french one ??

A side question BTW, did the HAF train with some others 4++ gen planes ? If so, what was the outcome ?

Thanks again for your availability and patience to endure french inquiry about their supposed marvellous plane named the Rafale !

niet,

french medias or tv doesn’t report on this stuff, it was from belgian sources, while florene TLP 2001..

after you got your own beleives…

Well the costs for Typhoon have been given publically available are fly-away costs for T2 Typhoons and the difference to F3 standard Rafales is by no means 60%. More a 20% to 25% difference. But depends what you include as Edelstenne did not specify the exact costs, he mentioned the Rafale’s fly-away price, but no price for the Typhoon. As he stats fly-away for the Rafale and mentioned 60% more for the Typhoon, we can conclude it’s the fly-away price he compares and by that we know from several sources (has been discussed here a thousend times) that Typhoon is more expensive, but for sure not 60% more. So call it as you want, it is obviously wrong and to be honest I rather believe the the numbers given by Austria, Germany and the EF GmbH than to believe the CEO of Dassault for whom the Eurofighter is a concurent product.

I don’t think anybody suggest that the Rafale programme is bad. True is the Typhoon was eleminated earlier from several competitions and by that the Rafale was found to be the better suiting product (if you want to call that superiority do it). The conclusion that the Rafale won performance/technical evaluations against the Typhoon is a bit misleading however, especially when you see the quote “systematically won against the F-15 and Eurofighter Typhoon” because it was the F-15 which was selected in end. By that logic (Rafale must be superior to the Typhoon, because Typhoon was eleminated earlier) we must conclude that the F-15 must be superior to the Rafale. Suddenly other reasons are found for the Rafale lose, but the Typhoon of course just lost because it performs worse and is technically inferior. That’s a little bit one sidened view. Might also depend on how you interpret this or that. In Singapore for example it wasn’t just reported by journos, but also claimed by MINDEF itself that the Typhoon was eliminated on the grounds of time scales. EF GmbH couldn’t deliver the multirole configured Eurofighter at the schedule specified by MINDEF. You could conclude that the Typhoon lost on the technical ground it wasn’t multirole capable enough and by that Rafale won on the technical ground. But that doesn’t say anything about the aircraft in general and doesn’t prove technical superiority in every area (which some seems to conclude by that).

:D:D
scorpion

I think it is important to note that this is Mr. Edelstenne, CEO of Dassault Aviation, just to clarify the objectivity of the source regarding the criticism of the European input into F35 and the Eurofighter cost. 😉

this one is clearer!

M. Charles Édelstenne. La moralisation du commerce international est une nécessité mais il faudrait que l’ensemble des acteurs industriels se retrouvent sur un pied d’égalité. La France croit toujours nécessaire de faire plus d’efforts que ses partenaires, ce qui conduit à affaiblir sa position. Pour ce qui est des exportations, la législation est allée au-delà de ce qui était prévu par la convention anti-corruption de l’OCDE, de sorte qu’on nous applique le même traitement qu’au grand banditisme. Les dirigeants français d’entreprises risquent jusqu’à dix ans de prison quand les dirigeants britanniques voient les procédures arrêtées malgré la publication par la presse d’une liste impressionnante de transgression des règles applicables en matière d’exportation d’armement.

you read the french? rob?

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php…28&c=EUR&s=TOP

Rafale wins the swiss contract!

:p

for xmass,

THEN YEAR DOLLARS!!!

BS.

The Typhoon DOES NOT offer better air defence capability.
The Typhoon DOES NOT offer greater combat persistence.
The Typhoon IS NOT more deployable.
The Typhoon IS NOT cheaper.
The Typhoon DOES NOT promise lower support & sustainment costs.
The Typhoon WILL NOT be better networked.
The Typhoon WILL NOT be better sorted to ANY missions.
The Typhoon WILL NOT promise better swing role capability.
The Typhoon WILL NOT carry ANY weapon the JSF could not carry.

Yes I know you said non-stealthy fit so I will add…
The Typhoon WILL NOT be able to defeat ANY target that the JSF could not.

Jack is still spining around the tyfoone “superiority”? lol

Noway made thier mind, dutch too about the 4th gen eurofighter!

DRDO certainly need help as the Kaveri so far has performed well bellow expectations.

As for ThalesRaytheon, the partnership is in the Radar and C4i sector and doesn’t involve Raytheon Missile systems. The American DOD and Congress are very sensative over AMRAAM.

uhmmm thales raytheon works on far more sensitive technologies than any AIM’s one, but its your opinion!

as exemple:

BCS is the next-generation air sovereignty command and control system operated by NORAD, U.S. Northern Command, and Pacific Command. The BCS mission is to control the airspace over the continental U.S., Alaska, Hawaii and Canada. It serves as the early warning mechanism in the vital U.S. homeland defense mission.

As prime contractor, ThalesRaytheonSystems provides advanced technology that features increased sensor capacity while improving interoperability among hundreds of legacy sensors, including more types of radars than any other Air Force system. It correlates and fuses data from airborne, ground, naval and civil air traffic sensors into an integrated air picture that allows commanders to monitor the airspace above, beyond and within the U.S. and Canadian borders.
“This latest spiral gives the Air Force the foundation for higher performance hardware, with improved human-machine interface, that supports the objective of common software for BCS Fixed and Mobile,” said Kim Kerry, ThalesRaytheonSystems chief executive officer for U.S. Operations.

http://www.thalesraytheon.com/press-and-media/news-and-press-releases/news-single/back/32/article/thalesraytheonsystems-to-provide-upgrade-for-battle-control-system.html

SACRE BLEU! 😀

Les essais en vol et au sol de l’appareil français Rafale ont commencé le 13 octobre 2008 et ont compté 39 vols, représentant approximativement 60 heures de vol. Le nombre de vols plus élevé qu’avec le Gripen et l’Eurofighter a servi aux tests élargis d’un deuxième type de radar. Le Rafale a été suivi de l’Eurofighter, troisième et dernier candidat.

Explained! Nine extra flights needed because they were flying both RBE-2 and RBE-2 AESA jets. That’s good news for Rafale – they won’t be judging he aircraft according to the PESA radar.

“Typhoon was a given the SAME quota of flying hours for the SAME flight-test program than Gripen and Rafale, it only missed a few hours of availability due to lack of reliability.” No evidence for such a charge. Quel surprise. What a biased little twit.

“The flights undertaken during the evaluation are part of the existing flight quotas and did not lead to more flights on the airbases in question.”

EG the evaluation flights (for all types) did not lead to more flights (in total) at these air bases (overall, not by Rafale), because Swiss air force activities were reduced to compensate. It doesn’t mean that Rafale didn’t fly extra flights. Quel surprise. What a brainless little twit.

“Jackotwisto; keep your family and durt matters for yoursel please as well as insultsing people you keep taking others for your usual ineducated fanboys, i bet i could be your dad as for a matter of education we all know what you are worth and it aint much when it come to the subject of aeorspace.” Quel surprise. What a rude and ignorant little twit.

Durt? Insultsing? Ineducated? Aint? Aeorspace? I know that English isn’t your first language, but for goodness’ sake….. especially when you are calling other people ‘uneducated’.

Si vous ne pouvez pas orthographier des mots comme l’espace, saleté, insulter, inculte, et ne savent pas où placer une apostrophe dans le mot ain’t, puis il est assez facile à vérifier.

You could be my Dad? Only if you’re more than 60, and only if my mum (RIP) had made a habit of sleeping with rude, brainless, little twits.

As for education…. If you really must drag this up, you’re an ex AdlA spanner-monkey. I’m a professional aerospace journalist, with University degrees, and I am an RAF trained pilot.

could you finish your flame war in pm pls?

its tiring to cope with you and rob about childish and englanders views!

KF,

The nine extra flight detail was added to the thread to counter an over-colourful interpretation of a very minor Typhoon serviceability which led to one flight being delayed from one afternoon to the next morning.

If you’re going to read major implications into minor changes to Typhoon’s flying programme, it’s only fair to acknowledge that Rafale’s flying programme has also been subject to last minute change.

As I’ve said before, it may be nothing, or it may be indicative of real but relatively trivial problems. It may even be a good sign. It’s unlikely to mark a show-stopping problem.

We’ll find out the reasons soon enough, I believe.

Evaluation du Dassault Rafale ( du 13 octobre au 4 novembre 2008 )
Les essais en vol et au sol de l’appareil français Rafale ont commencé le 13 octobre 2008 et ont compté 39 vols, représentant approximativement 60 heures de vol. Le nombre de vols plus élevé qu’avec le Gripen et l’Eurofighter a servi aux tests élargis d’un deuxième type de radar. Le Rafale a été suivi de l’Eurofighter, troisième et dernier candidat.

http://www.news.admin.ch/dokumentation/00002/00015/?lang=fr&msg-id=23556

ohhh lalala, Damnnnnnned… Jacky the lake of knowledges might be depressed!

arturo, a second radar system doesn’t mean AESA antenna…

its always a great honor to be melted with Lordassap, he already has prouved to be the only one here to know about what he’s talking about!

most of ppl should stay on their playstation games!