While the repositioner does address some of the problems inherent with AESA radars, M-scan does still enjoy some niche advantages, to the extent that the VFA-81 pilot I spoke to thought that the ideal situation was for a unit to have both. He conceded that his maintenance officer and logisticians would have disagreed.
Experienced fighter pilots with experience of both M-scan and E-scan (eg USN Super Hornet pilots) would disagree with you, Scorpion. M Scan is still better for some types of mission, they insist.
Moreover a Tranche 1 AESA retrofit has been designed, including a bulkhead reinforcement kit.
There’s no physical reason that you couldn’t retrofit an AESA to a T1 jet (the original CAESAR demonstrator was a DA, which is some way back from even T1 standards) but I doubt that they’d ever get funding to do it, unless it could be proven to be a spend to save measure.
Half the problem is that M-scan Captor is so good that there’s very little real imperative to go to E-scan, and for the foreseeable future there will be missions for which M-scan will be better. A mix of M-scan and E-scan Typhoons could thus be seen as an advantage.
Seahawk,
Tranche 1 Typhoons are not obsolete.
I haven’t heard anyone say that upgrading them is more expensive than buying new.
Mildave,
So much wrong!
T1 and T2 are different, primarily in that T2 has new processors and a new avionics bay shelf. A T1>T2 upgrade has been demonstrated (on IPAs), and was cheap enough for EF GmbH to offer it free to Austria when it looked as though that nation would get a mix of T1 and T2 aircraft.
T1 jets will not get P1E, though they will gain most P1E features through drops 3, 4, and 5.
T2 jets and early T3 jets are virtually identical, and all can be upgraded with AESA and CFTs, having full structural provision for both. The early T2 aircraft would need some minor fuel system mods to get CFTs, and minor cooling system mods to get AESA. These are trivial.
The RAF is NOT currently planning on retiring their T1 Typhoons (or selling them) from 2015-2018. The new force commander, [name drop]Air Commodore Waterfall[/name drop] made that clear.
I fail to see how the ability to upgrade some aircraft to exactly the same standard as later ones makes them Omni role or not.
Were that the case, Rafale would not be Omni role, as the F1s and ex-F2s are not being upgraded to exactly the same standard as the new-build F3, and may not be upgradeable to F3O4T standard, let alone ‘F4’.
Typhoon can already fly air-to-air and air-to-ground missions within one sortie (as was demonstrated in Frisian Flag), and to my mind that’s the definition of multi-role, or maybe even swing-role.
With P1EA will be able to carry out air to air and air-to-ground tasks simultaneously. To my mind, that’s Omni-Role.
Now you could say that Typhoon’s multi-role and omni role capabilities are a little narrow – with so few weapons choices, and I’d agree, though that looks set to change.
Why would they need to be structurally identical? Squadrons are already operating a mix of T1 and T2 jets, and cope with the differences easily.
The Swiss and Indian evaluations were not the same thing.
They were not conducted at the same time.
The requirements were not the same.
It’s not surprising that the Indians MAY have reached a different conclusion to the Swiss.
The Indians evaluated service aircraft. The Swiss evaluation relied principally on IPA3.
The Indians made multiple informal evaluations during joint exercises. The Swiss did not. The Indians deployed pilots to Europe to do things that could not be done in India – in a three day visit to Warton they dropped a self-designated LGB, fired an AMRAAM and dropped a load of dumb 1,000-lb bombs.
Ask DAS Gupta about the evaluation……. :diablo:
the helmet is a side-show, as the whole cockpit and man to machine interface on Rafale has been found way superior by all countries that tested Rafale and that other plane.
Utter nonsense. As is:
The Rafale finished all tests successfully. The Typhoon did not.
The Typhoon met more of the 643 tick boxes than Rafale
No date has been set.
No decision has been made even as to whether they will be retired at all. An intention to do so was annnounced, but this was always a pretty ill-conceived attempt to get the RAF a Tranche 3B buy in their place.
That’s now not going to happen, and there are rapidly shifting views as to the usefulness of Tranche 1, thanks in part to the results in Libya, and to the transformational effects of the new software drops, and Strongbow, and the perceived need to retain the two-seaters for training duties.
The need to build up the Typhoon force, and the imperative to reduce the GR4 force (perhaps to allow for an extended OSD) makes it most unlikely that the RAF will willingly forego 50 of its Typhoons.
There were other press reports from IAF sources that the Rafale had come out ahead
And there were many credible reports indicating that Typhoon led after the technical evaluation, and then fell down when the L1/L2 decision was made.
The Indians and the Swiss evaluated the aircraft at different times, and were looking for different things. One of the Indian tick boxes was the helmet, for example.
Ooooh! But not with Brie.
Port goes with Stilton.
I think I’d go for a nice light, crisp Pouilly Fume with my Brie…..
And I happen to have a bottle chilled…….
P1EA and P1EB are happening. They’re funded, developed, and in the case of P1EA testing is complete.
Hammond has committed to integrating Storm Shadow and Brimstone. When he made that commitment, it was assumed that would be as part of the Quadrinational programme. After Contract One it is clear that is not necessarily the case, though no timescale has been published, and it’s unclear to me as to whether any funding has actually been allocated.
It is quite unclear as to what “Continued investment” and “capability enhancements to the Typhoon” actually mean, and what they cover. They could simply refer to improvements and upgrades that are already in progress – such as P1E and Strongbow. Or they could refer to items on the longer range roadmap.
There is overhead in the budget, of course, and Hammond made it clear that other priorities could be funded from additional savings.
But many of us were expecting to see clear, unequivocal commitments to Meteor, Storm Shadow, AESA and Brimstone in this budget, and such commitments were not forthcoming. I’m old enough and cynical enough to see that as being bad news – a delay at least, and certainly not the ‘full steam ahead’ that is needed on these core improvements.
CFTs and thrust vectoring are not core, and are only on longer term dream sheets.
“…..denigrating the rafale in order to create doubt and put under pressure the political deciders as BAe did to get the Hawk deal ahead of the Alphajet at the time.”
The Hawk won on merit. The Alpha Jet simply isn’t in the same league as Hawk.
I’m aware of the association between the French and “cheese eating”…..
But other nations also have their own cheese-making traditions and expertise, and produce some individual cheeses that are every bit the equal of any French cheese, though these nations may lack the ‘strength in depth’ of the French cheese industry.
Britain may not make a decent soft cheese to rival Brie or Camembert, but we do make the king of blue cheeses in the form of Stilton, though the Italians may beg to differ and may offer up their own evidence in the form of Dolcelatte or Gorgonzola.
And there is something unique about Edam, Gouda, Jarlsberg and Havarti, about Manchego and Roncal, about Provolone, Pecorino, Mozzarella and Parmesan, and about Wensleydale, Cheddar and Cheshire.
All of which might lead the unbiased observer to conclude that while the French may lead the world in soft cheeses (and arguably in blue cheeses, too), it is not a world leader when it comes to hard, pressed cheeses.
And the Swiss make great Cheese, too, if you’re looking for a mild but savoury and nutty ‘bite’. And Emmental is famously full of holes, which makes holy cheese more associated with Switzerland than with France. (Yes I know they make Emmental and Gruyere in France as well, but they are Swiss cheeses, just as Mimolette is basically a copy of Dutch Edam).
The only commonly known French cheeses with holes are Emmental (a Swiss cheese) and some (but not all) varieties of Comté – a much less famous cheese.
So it should be “as full of holes as Swiss cheese.”
All that talk of cheese has made me hungry. I’d really fancy a nice bit of Brie de Meaux……
You shouldn’t pick your nose. It’s not polite.
Post F3O4T
No upgrades beyond F3O4T have been funded, and IGA Stéphane Reb, the Rafale program manager at the Direction Générale de l’Armement (DGA), the French Procurement Agency has pointed to the need for a roadmap going forward, implying that there isn’t one at the moment.
Such a roadmap could include the integration of the laser-guided version of the Sagem Armement Air-Sol Modulaire (AASM), and of the 1,000-kg variant, and of a version with an upgraded IIR sensor with algorithms for naval targeting and moving target targeting while the MBDA Meteor will be integrated in 2018. The roadmap is expected to include the development and integration of new low collateral damage kinetic bombs; as well as the development and integration of a new, more powerful Thales laser designation pod (Damocles NG???). It would also cover OSF-NG, the adoption of additional modes for the Thales RBE2/AA AESA radar, upgrades to the Link 16 MIDS and electronic warfare improvements for Spectra, as well as a MODE 5 compliant IFF and SATCOM. Some sources suggest that the Reco-NG is expected to gain target extraction capabilities in the future.
Other elements have already been brought forward for earlier integration including GBU-49 EPW II and the Damocles XF LDP.
There have been suggestions that a suppression of enemy air defense (SEAD) capability could be added, together with electronic attack functions and perhaps a towed radar decoy, which is perceived as offering added protection albeit with some loss of maneuverability. Rafale already has a rudimentary SEAD capability with Spectra’s geolocation capability and the AASM.
There are a number of ongoing DGA study plans (PEAs, or plan d’etudes amont) that will affect the Rafale.
These will be similar to the recent ECO and DASIGL PEAs, which resulted in the CGP pack for the M88-4E engine and the SBU-64 laser AASM respectively.
The MASTRID (Multicontext Airborne System for Targetting, Recognition and Identification) PEA is intended to allow SPECTRA to detect and locate targets with sufficient accuracy to allow an improved Damocles XF pod to be slewed onto it, and to thenm engage the target with an SBU-54 IIR AASM. with a new visible way with zoom and improved infrared module. The Damocles XF will offer a new data link and an enhanced identification system. XF is supposed to be avalaible in 2012, with Damocles NG following later.
A new digital HUD is being developed under the DETENAA (DÉveloppement de TEchnologies Nouvelles pour Avions d’Armes) PEA. This was demonstrated at the Paris Air Salon at Le Bourget in 2011.
The DEDIRA – (Demonstrateur de Discretion Rafale) PEA aims to
reduce Rafale’s RCS with both passive and active measures, including an improved air intake design, NG RAM material, and a ‘Stealth Cocoon’ to allow semi-conformal weapons carriage.
In progress
The INCAS (INtegration de nouvelles CApacités a Spectra) PEA is intended to give SPECTRA improved detection and jamming, and will see GaN TR modules replacing GaaS modules in the RBE2 radar and SPECTRA. Work has been ongoing since 2009.
MLU
A major mid-life update (equivalent in scope to the F-16 MLU) is tentatively scheduled for around 2020-2025, when the aircraft will start running out of processing capability. The upgrade will improve stealth, survivability and capability, though no specific measures or features have yet been defined.
Rafale NG, F4 or MLU?
There could be RCS improvements, Conformal Fuel Tanks (CFTs), SATCOM, and a UCAV control system, as well as a new DIRCM compatible IR MAWS.
There could also be radar improvements – perhaps with extra conformal arrays for the AESA to increase the coverage in azimuth.
There is still no indication of a possible HMD.
There could be a new engine (the more powerful M88-3), and/or the incorporation of Thrust Vector Control.