KovyYou’re not fooling anyone anymore Jon. :rolleyes:
Apparently, you do not master anonymity as well as your numerous sources.
I think Mr Jackonicko owes the people of this forum some serious explanations if not apologies.
KovyOnly in case of EU regulations and a crime within EU partners.
What can be considered a war-crime however, is killing Libyans in order to sell weapons, like Rafale.
We should have left the Gripen take glossy pictures of the ghadaffi troops murdering libyan civilians
BTW, the sweedish recce reports in Libya were the only one with a shinny little gripen logo on them so that the entire world could see that those pictures were sponsored by Saab.
I’m gonna puke.
KovyI’m neither desperate, nor a lobbyist. Anyone interested in this saga will be interested in the twists and turns, and the pros and cons of both contenders. Dyed in the wool Rafale fanboys may prefer to put their fingers in their ears and refuse to listen to anything that might be construed as bad news. That’s their choice.
Say the man who is telling us that it’s time to move on about the Swiss affair :rolleyes:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1857298&postcount=131
imho, you should apply your own advises to yourself, sir.
Let me do it for you :
Pointing out that Eurofighter fans are noted for moaning and whining about competitions that didn’t go Eurofighter’s way, and for labelling such decisions as unfair is fair comment, surely?
The Indian have selected a great fighter, which meets their needs well, and which is affordable, which Eurofighter would have not been. The selection process seems to have come up with the right result. That’s the real issue.
It’s time for some to move on and stop whining, I suggest.
KovyYeah and when UaE and then Brazil sign contracts the ordering bok will be around 200 aircrafts. Then wait and see India will be starting negotiations for the 68-80 extra rafaels and will get very good price becoz of good economy’s scale!!!..;).also I nearly forgeting- Malaysia will now order rafael!!!
Amazing how from no-where rafael will be most sucesful eurocanard!!!!:eek:
(still not as good as J-20!!:diablo:]hehehehehebut not bad!!:cool:
ps i dont like 2 cockpit displays on ether side of central- they are too small.
India : 126 + 64 (option) + 60 (navy)
Brazil : 36 + 36 (option 1) + 36 (option 2) + 36 (Navy)
UAE : 60
Qatar : 24
Kuwait : 22
So If everything goes well, the Rafale could end up with an export order book of almost 500 aircrafts, for a total of 786 produced !
If that happens, That will be the ultimate Dassault revanche over Eurofighter Gmbh
Kovyhow many times does it need to be repeated that INDIA DOES NOT WANT YOUR AID !!! Even the Finance Minister has said that and it was revealed that when India asked that the aid be stopped, your own politicians wanted to continue it or they’d somehow “lose face”. 😡
Go petition your own politicians and stop dragging this thread down your “oh we give aid to India and it wants to buy French fighter jets”..the hypocrisy is just stunning on this issue!
I must admit that the British condescension is stinky.
They aren’t even supposed to be involved in the bidding process.
KovyIf you were an IAF officer, would you have any confidence to Mr. Cameron’s declaration and slogan, after watching what his own government has done to the Eurofighter project in the past few years?
So true.
UK sacrified the Typhoon for a level 1 seat in the JSF program. A seat that has cost them several billions $.
Hope they will earn a lot of money with the JSF.
KovyWasn’t Brimstone considered one of, if not the more effective weapon in Libya and Afghanistan? No other fast jet could field such a weapon better for busy built up areas than Tornado GR4’s Brimstone.
I don’t know about Afghanistan, But As far as Libya is concerned, Brimestone was certainly not the most effective weapon against Libyan Air Defenses or hardened shelters / amunition depots.
Obviously it was a great asset for CAS and Interdection but, the good hold Gazelle + hot missiles has probably destroyed as much if not more targets than the Brimestone (if you had the Brimstones stats, that would be cool) for a fraction of the operating costs of the Tornado fleet 😉 … They fired a total of 431 hot missiles during the conflict and the French armed forces do aknowlege now, that those “close combat” kills played a major role in breaking the fighting will of the Gaddafi troops. (communications intercepted by nato forces showed that the Libyan soldiers were much more afraid of the Hello raids than of fighter jets bombing from above 20,000 ft)
KovyYou are confusing the ACF, which was to be an evolution of the Mirage IIIG, with the Mirage 4000. Your entire story is simply confused. The ACF went nowhere, the Mirage 2000 and 4000 were based on the same design and developed simultaneously, but whereas the 2000 was specifically aimed at a AdlA requirement, the 4000 was a privately-funded expansion of the same design aimed at export more than at the AdlA.
this is not all the story
At the begining the situation was reversed : Dassault proposed the french government to found the 4000 (because the french air force was asking for a twin engine fighter) while they will privately found the 2000 for export markets.
The French president of the time (VGE) decided that it will be the other way around…because of the Mirage 4000 price which was simply too high for the french air force to buy.
KovyThe Rafale AESA has 1000+ elements per Dassault, and will eventually be upgraded to use GaN elements. Sensor fused AWACS support, datalinks, satcom, OSF-NG, SPECTRA, etc… will likely negate any differences in radar range.
+1
besided the quality of a radar does not (only) relies on the number of modules.
KovyHow many delivered so far? How many contracts signed? :diablo:
Be patient 😎
KovyI wouldn’t be at all surprised to find the Super Hornet on the British carriers, but I’d be totally astonished if the RN wanted the Rafale. The Rafale lost the EFA competition because it isn’t capable enough
What is EFA competition ?
and it’s lost all but one fighter competition since because it’s not capable enough. A very pretty aeroplane, certainly, but it’s size tells against it.
The only possible war-fighting scenario for the new British carriers will be in the South Atlantic. There the capability of the Super Hornet will be important.
Regards
Could you, please, give us one competition where the super hornet beat the Rafale on capabilities grounds ?
On the other hand I can cite at least 3 contests where the Rafale was shorlisted and reach the final stage of the process while the SH was eliminated during the technical evaluation.
Korea, Singapore, India
KovyThey do, at least if they want to achieve a sale. Would not be the first time either, remember the talking about France buying KC390s to ease the deal for Rafale sale in Brasil.
Which has actually cost them a lot, in many ways.
Well, it’s not as if the French were desperate to export the Rafale
After all, it is the most exported fighter among the eurocanards :p
Kovy“Just accept it”…
While conveniently forgetting reports from a Luftwaffe Typhoon pilot (and RAF pilot respectively?) stating something along the lines of, ‘Typhoon had excess thrust which gave it an advantage’ and, ‘The higher Typhoon got the better it was suited’…
Some people ought to have a wider view of perspective in life. One gets more of an idea.
Is that the only typhoon achievement in 4 years ? Only good for dogfights above 30 kft ?
weak. And certainly not what one would have expected form a machine built for air domination.
KovyIt has nothing to do with desire and everything do with military doctrines. Unlike the IAF the SAF is restricted in terms of its area of responsibility as well as its strategic objectives in wartime.
Like the Swedes the Swiss train to fight as underdogs while utilizing the terrain to inflict maximum attrition. That means having airbases in caverns in mountainsides, and flying at low altitudes to minimize the risk of early detection, rather than going toe-to-toe against a numerically superior adversary that presumably has AWACS support.
The IAF’s chosen aircraft on the other hand will be required to dominate its sector in a more conventional scenario.
And what do you mean the ‘highlight’ was an intercept against the Super Hornet? First off where did they get the SH from?
Second, and more importantly, such evaluation trials aren’t typically head-to-head challenges. The objective (atleast as far as the IAF trials went) is to physically verify the performance of each aircraft type, as opposed to taking the glossy brochure claims at face value. Pitting it against a specific aircraft (like say the Su-30MK or F-16) introduces a large element of subjectivity to the competition which goes against the original principle.
The swiss pilots are among the best A2A pilots in the world as they train dayly and almost exclusively for air defense and interception against the best EU Air Forces (France, Germany, Italy).
Besides they operate a very modern hornet equiped with AIM-120 B/C7 + HMD and aim-9x.
They are no amateurs, and they know how to evaluate A2A capabilities of a modern fighter
And whether you like it or not, they ranked the Rafale above the Tiffy in A2A, both in offensive and deffensive role. And they must had very good reasons for that. Just accept it.
There is a moment when all the marketing in the world can’t go against the hard facts of reality. The time when one could claim superiority based on incomplete simulation because both aircrafts were only at the protype stage is over. Now they are confronted to real threats and their performances are assessed and compared by expert pilots. Surprisingly, the picture we get is quite different from what we have been told for the last 10 years:
The typhoon was advertised as being far superior to the Rafale in A2A in all aspects. Then, quite recently, it was conceded that the Rafale could have the upper hand in dogfight at low altitude and know we learn that, the Typhoon does not enjoy any clear advandage in BVR neither.
Sure, the typhoon system will improve in the future and in some years could surpass the Rafale. But as of today, this is apparently not the case.
KovyI am flatly right. Marinisation has been done to an awfull lot of airframes, aircrafts and helicopters and there´s nothing to prevent that being done on the Typhoon. That was precisely my point.
As said before everything is possible.
The good questions are
at what cost ?
and will the result worth the money spent ?
marinisation for shinny days and smooth sea with limited payload is easy.
Now, if you want to operate in very bad weather with heavy payloads with the ability to bring that payload back on the deck if necessary, that’s another story
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