JJRE: War against the evil that is the PA
Why did the Bush administration called Sharon a “man of peace”? (as I heard on the news).
Perhaps this is why (report taken from Ha’aretz at http://www.haaretzdaily.com):
PM: Mideast peace summit to be held soon, U.S. accepts the idea
Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said Sunday evening that an international peace summit will be convened soon to discuss the Middle East. Participants would include Israel, Egypt, Morocco, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and Palestinian representatives and be held under American auspices.
Sharon proposed the idea during a meeting with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell in Tel Aviv.
The goal of the summit would be to reach regional agreements on diplomatic and development matters. According to the prime minister, the idea is acceptable to the U.S.
Washington has not confirmed that an agreement has been reached on a regional summit. Prior to Sharon’s announcement, U.S. National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice said that “it is too early to speak about a regional peace conference,” but that she did not reject the idea.
White House Chief of Staff Andrew Card said that the White House expects that Egypt, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia will contribute to reaching a comprehensive peace treaty in the Middle East. According to Card, the time has come for the leaders of the aforementioned states to assist Arafat in choosing the path of negotitions.
Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat told Reuters the idea was a “waste of time” that was no substitute for a peace plan backed by last month’s Arab summit. “If Sharon wants to talk about peace, he can accept the Arab peace initiative or agree to end the occupation and withdraw to the June 4, 1967 lines,” he said.
Powell briefs Sharon on talks with Arafat
During the meeting held in Tel Aviv, the secretary of state briefed Sharon on his earlier meeting with Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat in Ramallah.
Powell urged Sharon to withdraw IDF troops from Palestinian areas and expressed concern about the humanitarian situation in the West Bank, his spokesman said.
“Secretary of State Colin Powell had a very good and thorough discussion with Prime Minister Sharon this evening,” State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said in a statement.
“He discussed with Prime Minister Sharon some ideas on how to achieve what Israelis and Palestinians want — an end to the violence and moving forward on the political issues,” he added in a statement describing their talks in Tel Aviv.
“He stressed our serious concerns about the humanitarian situation, particularly in Jenin,” he said, referring to a northern West Bank town where a refugee camp is cut off and in ruins after fierce fighting between Israelis and Palestinians.
“We note that Israel continues to withdraw,” he said, referring to Israel’s incursion in Palestinian towns and villages, in its 17th day. “The secretary pressed for its completion,” Boucher added.
Earlier, Powell met with President Moshe Katsav and former Prime Minister Ehud Barak to discuss his talks with Yasser Arafat.
Powell has ‘useful’ talks with Arafat in Ramallah
Emerging from the three-hour meeting with Arafat in Ramallah, Powell said he had “useful and constructive” talks with the PA Chairman.
Arafat did not emerge from his office to speak with reporters. CNN reported that PA minister Saeb Erekat, who emerged with Powell, pointed at the IDF tanks surrounding Arafat’s office, and said that the Palestinian leader had not emerged for security reasons.
“We just completed a useful and constructive exchange… and we exchanged a variety of ideas and discussed steps on how we can move forward,” Powell told reporters.
There was no immediate indication, however, of whether the meeting had brought an elusive truce any closer.
“When the Israelis complete the full withdrawal we will carry out our obligations,” Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat said.
He also repeated the Palestinian position that the IDF had to withdraw from all the PA areas it had invaded before a cease-fire could go into effect.
Mohammed Dahlan, Arafat’s security chief in the Gaza Strip, told The Associated Press: “The Palestinian position was clear that there would be no talks about political or security coordination without Israeli withdrawal.”
National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice said Israelis and Palestinians should focus on steps each side must take to reach a cease-fire instead of criticizing one another.
“The key here is to have the parties concentrate on what they have to do, not what the other side has to do,” Rice said on NBC network. She and other White House officials put pressure on Arafat to act and didn’t repeat calls for a swift Israeli pullout. “He needs to use whatever authority he has to end the calls for suicide bombers.”
Asked when Powell would end his mission, Rice said he’ll stay at least a couple of more days. “We will assess it day by day and he will have the flexibility to stay as long as he’s needed,” she said.
Powell to make unscheduled stop in Beirut on Monday
U.S. Secretary of State Powell will pay unscheduled visits to Beirut and Damascus on Monday as part of his effort to bring about a cessation of hostilities in the Middle East, the Lebanese government said Sunday.
The government said in a statement that Powell would come to the capital for few hours for talks with President Emile Lahoud and other officials, and then later in the day head for Damascus to meet with Syrian officials.
His visit comes after a week during which Hezbollah has been firing rockets on a daily basis at IDF posts in the disputed Chebaa Farms area in southern Lebanon, and Israel has responded with artillery bombardments and airstrikes on Lebanon.
When Powell’s regional tour was announced earlier this month, Lebanon and Syria, the main power broker in Lebanon, were left out, prompting Beirut to express dissatisfaction that the country was not being consulted on the peace process.
Media reports and experts said both Beirut and Damascus were concerned that they may be left out of any settlement as the United States focuses on ending the Palestinian-Israeli fighting.
By Aluf Benn, Ha’aretz Correspondent, Ha’aretz Service and Agencies
JJRE: War against terror
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 14-04-02 AT 06:49 PM (GMT)]Geforce, I don’t understand you. All the time you keep saying how much the Palestinians want peace. Israel offered them piece, in Camp David, as I indeed have said a trillion times. The Palestinians,or more accurately, Arafat, refused the proposal. It was the most geneorus proposal ever, yet he refused. Israel can’t go further, because that would mean the end of Israel. Israel needs to control the Palestinian borders for at least some time, and if anything, recent events have proved this idea to be correct. You don’t expect Israel to let the Palestinians arm themselves to the teeth, do you?
Now, even if Arafat was not fully satisfied with the proposal, that is no excuse to resort to violence. Resorting to violence is against the various accords, most importantly the Oslo Accords. Arafat renounced violence in these accords. If the Palestinians are not happy with a certain proposal, they should make a counter-proposal. Arafat chose not do so. He ordered his subordinates to prepare for an “Intifada”, as confirmed by PLO officials in Lebanon. He chose the path of war. While the Intifada was going on, Israel, under then PM Barak, continued to negotiate with Arafat at Taba. However, these talks collapsed when a few suicide bombings were carried out, and the PA negotiators refused to condemn these bombings. The Israeli delegation then left. Only after this were elections held, and did Sharon come power. The failure of the Taba talks, to which you obviously refer, had nothing to do with Sharon, the blamae rests solely on the Palestinians. Not only this, but during the Intifada variuos cease-fire agreements were signed, to no avail. Not only this, but, and this too I have said like a trillion times, Israel, under PM Sharon, did not retaliate a full month after various suicide bombings. Arafat refused to declare a cease-fire, not did he even try to stop the terror attacks. Instead, he increased them. These are all facts. And yes, siging Camp David would certainly have prevented this, at least if the Palestinians would mean what they agreed to, as it was the Palestinians that started the Intifada.
Geforce wrote:“Now I ask you: how would you feel if you would have to live in constant fear, not being able to go to a supermarket, becuase you could be blown up, not being able to go to see a movie, because you met be blown into pieces.”
I can’t imagine how I would feel; terrified. Ofcourse I would want my government to take actions, do something. But if it doesn’t help ME and my SOCIETY, why should I still support it? People who still move to settlements these days are just dumb and I have no pity with them: they know what they are up to. The people who still live there should leave these settlements in a peacefull way, which should be possible. After all, this war is not about oil, money, just about some ##### little places in a desert!
Now, you obviously miss something very important, and PhantomII pointed to this a number of times, namely the fact that when Israel was present in all the West Banl towns, there were no suicide bombings. Only after Israel withdrew did suicide bombings once again take place. So the policy does work, and it does help the average citizen and society.
Geforce wrote:“That’s what the outside world thinks of this.”
Isn’t that important? Don’t you see those daily marches every day in the streets of Paris, Berlin, Rome, Brussels, Jordan? These people want their government to take actions against Israel. Is a carbomb so much worse than a tank driving over civilian buildings, killing innocent people?
Indeed, the oustide world isn’t important when it comes to matters of life and death. If it comes down to being loved by the EU and dying, or being critisized by the EU and living, the choice is easily made. And those daily marches in European cities, why don’t those protestors come to Israel, and experience first-hand what it is like living under constant fear of attack. And perhaps they would be willing to stop the suicide bombings, and daily incitement of the Palestinain people.
Geforce wrote:WHY DOESN’T ANYONE ANSWER THIS SIMPLE QUESTION : has is become safer for the Israeli’s to go on the street now? You can maybe take out the terrororist organisations, but not the hatred among people.
This question has been answered, and it is slowly becoming safer on Israeli streets.Nobody expects miracles, but by continuing this operation, and destroying the PA’s ability to incite it’s own people, as it has doen since the beginning of the Oslo peace process, by calling for the destruction of Israelm, by manipulating children from the moment they are born, Israel will be able to get at least part of the hatred go away.
Geforce wrote:Please Phantom, don’t talk about the good and the bad guys. Hitler also said they were with the good guys. (Now you’re gonna say: look he’s comparing Hitler again with Israel, but I’m not, ok???)
Why are you constantly comparing each and every Israeli actions or words to Nazi Germany? If you don’t intend to make this comparison, don’t make it. It is highly offensive, you know. Also, this argument is nonsene, it can easily be turned around and said of you or the Palestinians (then it at least would make some sense, as the stated goal of the PLO is still, and you can see for fourself, to drive the Jews into the sea)
Geforce wrote:Terrorism doesn’t come alone, there’s a reason why it exists. Israel should work on this.
Israel is working on this, but it may take years to take the hatred that was poured into this people for years by Palestinian media under PA control out of these people. Terrorism exists because some organization, in this case the PA, decides that it would suit it to use terror in order to achieve a certain goal. Terrorism cannot exist without an organization behind it.
Geforce wrote:Like I said in the past, the PA is as responsable as Israel, but that doesn’t give Israel the right to attack refugee camps …
Yes, it does give Israel the right to enter the camps, because that is where the terror comes from. In roder to effectively fight terror, one has to fight the infrastructure behind it. This infrastructure, laboratories, HQs, senior level ‘officers’, terrorist, are all located inside Palestinian cities, towns and ‘refugee camps’. It was a Palestinian decision to locate these in civilian areas, not an Israeli. And that gives Israel the right to enter these camps.
Geforce wrote:I think Israel should consider buying better weapons, because their laser and tv-guided bombs are not that accurate anymore. I hope they fix the problem soon.
The devastation in the camps is a direct result of warfare. Palestinians boobytrapped entire streets, blowing up explosive charges very near israeli soldiers. This at least causes part of the devastation. And after Israel lost 13 soldiers as a reasult of searching house to house, in order to minimize civilian casualties, it was decided to not take any risks anymore, and destroy any suspicious builidings.
Shalom,
Jonathan
PS: PhantomII, thanks for your support, just one remark: not all Liberals are anit-Israel. In fact, the liberal party here in The Netherlands is quite pro-Israel. Unfortunately, in Belgium things are different, but it’s mostly left-wing socialist/communist parties that are so anti-Israel.
JJRE: Israel vs Palestine
Geforce, terrorism os killing civilians for a (political) goal. Since that is what the Palestinians are doing, they are terrortists. It’s that simple. And that has nothing to do with their goals, which by the way is not so much an independant Paletstinian state, but the eradication of Israel. And the organizations themselves are claiming so, including Yasser Arafat’s PLO. Just read the covenant of the PLO, and you’ll find out yourself.
What Israel is doing is not Apartheid. I must have said this like a trillion times now, but the Palestinians could have had a Palestinian state, had they accepted the Camp David proposals. Instead, they turned the offer down, and resorted to violence. The situation they fimd themselves now in, is of their own making. And don’t give me crap like “how would you feel if you were a fatjer of an 18 year old son who’s in the army now, and he might get killed”. Because the situation is such that he may just as easily killed if he goes out to a restaurant, or a discotheque, or a shopping mall. Now I ask you: how would you feel if you would have to live in constant fear, not being able to go to a supermarket, becuase you could be blown up, not being able to go to see a movie, because you met be blown into pieces. How would you feel if you would have to fear for your life each time you take the nus, or go to a restaurant? Tell me, Geforce. Woudl you say: now I understand, all the other side wants is peace! Or would you say: my government needs to do everything to stop this madness, and root out terror. Tell me, Geforce.
Don’t you guys read Economist? USA-Today? It’s full of it. In the latest issue of US-today it stated : Sharon is making the same mistakes again as 20 years ago in Lebanon, because he doesn’t want to listen to the US. Sharon is abusing the US, and the free world, because any civilised state can’t accept what this man is doing right now.
That’s what the outside world thinks of this. But they can talk easily. After all, they won’t have to pay for it with their lives should things go wrong. And the US may not necessarily be right, as they have other interests than we do. They want to get to Iraq, and need some Arab support for this action, at least that’s what they think they need. That’s why they want quiet now. But Israel wants security for it’s people, and if that means going into Ramallah and Jenin and destory the terrorist infrastructure, so be it.
Ooh and the Gaschambers? Why always refer to the Nazi’s? Do you think they are the only ones who commited warcrimes? I’m sure you know better. Holocaust is more than what has happened with the jews in wwII, it’s a universal word.
You, Geforce referred the Holocaust, not I. [b]You[/b] made the reference to the Nazis, not I. And the Holocaust is intertwined with what happened to the Jewish people in WWII. You acnnot deny that.
Arafat is too weak, but as Powel said: he’s the only one who we can negotiate with. Sharon ofcourse doesn’t give a damn about what Collin, Annan or Solana says. The only thing that matters is his colonial war (better than holocaust).
Arafat is not too weak. If he wants to, he can stop the terror. And even if he is weak right now, that doesn’t matter. Because he never should have started the terror. Have you read the documents that were captured by the IDF. Arafat themsleves put his signature on him. That makes him a terrorist. And Israel doesn’t negotiate with terrorists. Arafat may be the only Palestinian leader right now, but Israel will not make the same mistake again, and trust tis wanton liar. If Solana loves him so much, and if the EU is so content with Arafat, why don’t they give him a state right here in Europe. After all, Europe is big enough, isn’t it?
Shalom,
Jonathan
JJRE: Israel vs Palestine
You’re right, only on person can be blamed for this mess: Arafat. He was the one who turned the Camp David, he’s the one that ordered his organziations to start the Intifada, he’s the one who is refusing to declare a cease fire, he’s the one funding the terror, as recently captured documents have proved. Even when Israel, under Sharon, didn’t respond for one full month, Arafat still refused to declare a cease fire. Arafat is the one to blame, not Sharon.
As for tour reference top the Holocaust: where are the gas chambers, Geforce. Where are the trains leading there? Where are the plans to exterminate the Palestinian people? You are really turning the victim into the aggressor. That doesn’t mean I view every Palestinian as an aggressor or enemy, but clearly Israel tries to eradicate terrorism, whereas Arafat, with the financial backing of the EU, continues the terror against innocent civilians, as yesterday’s suicide bombing, and thursday’s suicide bombing have proven once again.
Shalom,
Jonathan
JJRE: Israel vs Palestine
Seahawk, we’ve been negotioating with Arafat for the since 1993. It didn’t stop the suicide bombings. Israel offered him a state, he turned the offer down. Then he resorted to terror, HE HIMSELF gave the order to start to prepare an Intifada. And even when the infitada was going on Israel kept negotiating with him. Israel gave Arafat and the PA enough opportunities to stop the terror. Hech, after the Dolphinarium attack Israel, with Sharon as PM, didn’t even retaliate for ONE MONTH. But the terror INCREASED, instead of decreased. We demanded cooperation for the past nine years, but the terror didn’t stop. Now we’re forced to do it ouself. It won’t be easy, it won’t be nice, but that the fault of Arafat and his gang, not Israel’s.
As for public opinion: nobody in Israel even cares about it anymore. All the time Europeans keep telling us that we have a right to defend ouselves, but when Israel exercises that right, we’re destroying the ‘peace process’. As if there still is a peace process now. The world has never been on Israel’s side. I haven’t heard world condemnation yet of Hezbollah’s gross violations of UN resolutions, but I’m sure Israel will be condemned when we strike back. And I’m afraid that day isn’t far off either.
Shalom,
Jonathan
JJRE: Israel vs Palestine
Arafat cannot control suicide bombers? Perhaps you should read this translation of a document found in one of Arafat’s offices.
JJRE: MID EAST :PEACE IS THE SOLUTION.
Two things about the ambulance remark. First, Palestinians have used ambulances in their ‘war’ against Israel. Ambualnces have carried suicide bomber past checkpoints. The first female suicide bomber used an ambulance to get past the checkpoints. And just a few days ago an ambualnce was forced to stop at a checkpoint. Inside a suicide bomber was discovered. Inside the ambulance were also a child and a female.
Second, Palestinians, from their moral highground have today targetted Israeli ambulance personnel in a suicide bombing in Efrat. This ofcourse wasn’t the first time rescue workers were targeted, in numerous suicide bombings there was a second bomber or bomb, which was meant to go off as soon as people arrived at the scene to help the wounded. But this time, the personnel itself was a primary target. It is yet another sad day in Israel now.
JJRE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 31-03-02 AT 02:18 PM (GMT)]Are you suggesting that my or Skythe’s IQ is lower than average, or lower than yours, mongu?
Really, before stating things, you should know more facts. Arafat had the opportunity in Camp David to get a state for the Palestinians. He turned down the proposal, and instead, upon his return, or maybe even before, ordered the preparation of a conflict against the Palestinians. This in fact has been confirmed by a PLO official in Lebanon. He not only let terrorism reign in the good years of Oslo, he in fact supported it. This is unacceptable, and I think he made a big mistake. The Palestinian now will have to wait at least another generation before they will have another opportunity to get a state of their own.
Kev wrote: “If Israel stopped retaliating for one month and the Palestinians continued their attacks they would receive overwhelming world wide support.”
This has already been tried, remember the Dolfinarium attack last year? Sharon didn’t respond for a month to Palestinian attacks, the world was all ‘behind’ Israel. Did it stop the bombing? No, Israelis were still getting killed. Then ofcourse Israel had to retaliate, after yet another suicide bombing. What happened to world support? Arafat was once again the ‘victim’, crying like a baby about the cruel Israelis killing terrorists.
“Similarly, if the Palestinians stopped their attacks for the same period of time, ignoring whatever they see as provocation from Israel, they too would receive extra support.”
Wrong again, the Palestinians already have wordl support, for a number of reasons. The Europeans like cheap oil, and love to sell weapons to Arab countries. Furthermore, the Palestinians are trying to make it look like a fight of David against Goliath. They would even kill their won children if that would lead to world support. It’s amazing how, after each suicide bombing, Israel is being comdemned by virtually the entire world, with the notable exception of the US.
Tomel, fighting poverty has nothing to do with the fight against terrorism. Terrosims and poverty are not connected. The Palestinians have a higher standard of living than most people in the Arab states, yet those people in Arab states don’t execute acts of terrorism. The 9/11 highjackers all came from the welthier Arab families, Osama is a millionaire. Study has shown that most Palestinian suicide bombers come from families who have a good income (by comparison of course). That doesn’t mean however that I don’t think poverty should be fought.
Now, as I explained earlier, the Palestinians could have gotten a state by peacefull means. Instead, they chose to fight. Why? Because their goal is the destruction of Israel, not a Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank. IMO, they’re not defending themselves, but are attacking Israel. It’s Israel which has a right to defend istelf.
Shalom,
Jonathan
JJRE: War againt poverty, not against terrorism
I think the wrong question is being asked here. The question should be: what kind of people send 16 year old girls on suicide missions? THAT is the question.
JJRE: Best Airlines in the World: My Own List
Was at the flight deck of a KLM B767 for nearly 2 hours, flyng from Tel Aviv to Amsterdam. Could see all of Holland from the flight deck. GREAT!
JJRE: Best Airlines in the World: My Own List
My best airlines:
KLM
El Al
Worst:
Transavia (nearly no food, you nearly get no drinks (not even if you ask for them, small aircraft, you have to pay for alcoholic drinks, and even for the earphones!)
Any Russian airline (don’t really trust their aircraft AND their crew, just can’t forget those numerous near-accidents, where it appeared the pilots were drunk and/or didn’t get enough training)
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