DubyaRegarding the MiG-23, according to http://www.milavia.net/airforces/belarus/belarus_pictorial.htm they are not operational. It’s a non-official site though.
DubyaThey choked them spares and trying to bleed them to death. A common method how to get rid off russian planes, then claiming their low operability and maintainability and to convince the “crowd” that it`s wise to phase out any uneconomic activity. On the other side, they already have plans to buy dozens of US crap, not worrying that country would run into debt.
Please understand, that is the way how is going when governments are paid by US dollars.Martinez
The US still offers good aid programs such as FMS etc where the US pretty much handles the entire acquisition and almost subsidises the purchase.
Give the Yanks access to a base and you even get freebies. The US does look after its customers as long as you stay on their good side.
For the Russian stuff on the other hand you need hard cash.
DubyaThose Mig-23s are probably operational. They look like they are kept in a pretty good shape.The camouflage bothers me a bit,doesnt look really effective.
I agree about the camouflage. It looks too bright.
DubyaWell Bulgaria has I think 18 Mig-29’s and they keep only about 4 or 5 operational and that is enough to police their airspace.
They still have 13-14 airframes to cannibalize or bring back into service if one of the operational airframes goes out of action. Plus aren’t they upgrading and overhauling 18 or so airframes anyway due to a legal ruling? And don’t they actually want 16 F/A-18E/F’s plus a further 12 or so F-5E’s? 28 airframes is a far cry from 4 or 5.
But the Serbs would have only 5 (possibly 4) airframes in total.
DubyaTurkey never operated Tiger II, so….
All Turkish F-5’s are either baseline F-5A/B or uprated ex-Dutch NF-5A/B’s.
DubyaAre those MiG-23’s operational? If so they would be the last Floggers flying in Europe (at least as operational fighters).
It’s a shame they don’t have have Su-15’s…
DubyaThat is a bold statement ink! Everyone here knows that we’re secretly members of the black hand, gather together once a week at our local shriner meetings, and are plotting the overthrow of the evil west with an assassination which will lead to the third world war! :diablo:
What a revelation. And I thought the U.S. Government- Zionist-Microsoft-Alien conspiracy was evil!
Dubyathey’re not going to replace them any time soon.. they inheritted some pretty modern stuff. like flex said.. upgrades will last them for quite some time.. perhaps until the time UCAVs start being practical combat aircraft.
I can see the Su-25 (and if they have MiG-27s) being retired w/o any replacements.. and maybe even the Su-24 (i’m pretty sure there will be many potential customers for those).
It will be some time before UCAV’s are fielded – even the USAF is investing in manned combat aircraft such as the F-22 and F-35 (only enters service 2012). UCAV’s are an unproven concept and thier sevice entry is unknown.
Ukraine’s aircraft were built in the 1980’s and were originally part of the Soviet armed forces. These are not new aircraft by any stretch of the imagination.
DubyaAs you say, it depends much on which goverment are in seat when the deal is to be sealed.
If its pro-West, they can very well try to get their hand on some second-hand US fighters or something like that.
But replacing a Su-27 or a Su-24 with a second hand F-16A seems like a major downgrade in terms of capability. Furthermore the F-16’s will probably be as old as the Su-27.
DubyaI think Serbia should down size the mig 21 fleet and convert another 10 into Reconiscess and also for Partoling.
Having a fleet of 12 tactical reconaissance jets (includes 2 already converted) is a wee bit of overkill when the entire operational MiG-21 fleet consists of less than 20 aircraft. Especially when there’s reconaissance versions of the Orao still in service as well.
DubyaIf you do not believe http://www.airwar.ru you should watch udarnaya sila TV program where they interviewed engineers from MAPO, test pilots and several important personalities from MAPO and where basicly MAPO says the same.
Basicly in Russia the F-117 is regarded as not as stealthy and the US version not as credible.
I understand that the F-117 is not as stealthy as the US and particularly the US media says it is. The US media particularly blows everything out of proportion.
But again MAPO are not in the business of intelligence gathering. They would not know whether a MiG-29 shot down an F-117 or not.
The US has acknowledged the loss of an F-117 to a SAM and I think even the Serbs said it was due to an SA-3.
The testimony of some Russian engineers and vague internet rumours do not amount to a more credible source than US official government reports.
DubyaWell, many confusion arises from the fact what many peoples take someone book, memories or simply yellow paper news as official “russian claims”. Official *public* russian MOD’s claims are very hard to find – as fact, i havent seen any regarding Vietnam, Egypet, Israel, etc. I have seen numerous claims in books from varios russian generals or combat instructors – but they was nothing but their PERSONAL thoughts.
You must be very carefull even regarding very official claims:
First rule here: dont believe what anyone says about enemy loses during the war. 1st, they dont know for sure, 2th – its heavly influenced by propaganda.
Next rule – dont believe what they say ALL about own loses. Not gonna happen during the war. Only after archives opening we can judge it with some degree of reliabilty.
You’ve hit the nail on the head.
http://www.airwar.ru is not an official site. It’s a fan site.
At University level studies such a site would not be recognised as a proper reference source.
As for accidents and fratricide, accidents are the most common cause of iarcraft losses in war as well as peace. Much like disease has in the past been the biggest killer of soldiers.
No offence but you are delving into the realm of conspiracy theories if you are claiming that US losses are covered up as accidents. So for example according to you is is possbile that the losses of four USAF F-16’s in March/April are possibly due to enemy action?
DubyaDubya
You are only excusing a combat record just by a political preference.
Photographic evidence or kills acknowledged by both sides it is what counts, if you have not such evidence the account is not verified.If you have not the gun camera film, the wreckage or the acknowledgement of the loss well you can not prove any thing and the other side`s account has then the same credibility.
If you read russian accounts they addmit MiGs and Russian aircraft lost, the only thing they differ is basicly the also claim kills achieved by Russian aircraft.
Well of course the Russians claim kills. It’s bad marketing not to (“Buy the latest MiG-29 – only shot down 12 or so times. No victories.”).
Anyhow my point is that the reason people believe American claims and not Russian one is due to political reasons.
I agree that kills should be confirmed by either physical proof or acknowledgment by the other side.
This is why I stated that Israel is a grey area. Israel is very secretive and will not acknowledge losses unless the enemy has physical proof. Syria on the other hand is even more secretive and has an authoritarian regime in power. So what happened over the skies of Lebanon is a mystery at best.
But the US on the other hand is relatively open and acknowledges losses when they occur. The number of helicopters shot down in Iraq and Afghanistan attests to this.
So I doubt that the Iraqis or Serbs shot down anymore aircraft than they did. Especially as they have no physcial proof of additional kills.
DubyaThe Democracy card is a total excuse and basicly a political one, in that case Germany`s ACES combat record in WWII should be a fabrication same should be Japan`s WWII record.
The F-4 for example has close to 800 losses in combat and nobody claims a terrible combat record, in fact the MiG-25 has had very few losses in combat, the main aircraft that has been shot down in the Arab-Israeli wars has been the MiG-21
The question is not of democracy because in times of war both sides used propaganda, the Democratic West uses propaganda as the Communist block did, the question is where is the author who writes the account from? and how he or she shows preference for his or her national aerospace industry
The question was why give more credit to US rather than Russian/Seriban/Syrian claims. The answer there is simple. As for Germany and Japan, many of their victories were over democratic Britain and the UK. So these claims have been verified.
As for the F-4. MiG-21 and MiG-25, this is a result of the number users and operational use. The F-4 saw extensive combat in Vietnam, the Arab-Israeli wars, Iran-Iraq and the 1991 Gulf War (F-4G Wild Weasels). Quite literally thousands of aircraft were used in extensive combat operations including both air-to-air and ground attack operations. Same thing applies to the MiG-21 which has fought in near every war from the 1960’s onwards. The MiG-25 on the other hand has seen more limited service.
And the other thing is that the claims we are speaking about are air-to-air kills. Many F-4 have been shot down by Soviet built SAM and AAA systems. But for some reason people focus on air-to-air kills over overall losses. I s’pose it’s regarded as the ultimate in determining an aircraft’s worth.
It’s kind of like Black Adder 1 when Black Adder claims to have killed hundreds of peasants but is told that they don’t count as much. Only killing nobles does. Same thing here – losses to ground fire are irelevant even though they form the bulk of combat air losses but A2A kills are immensly important.
DubyaHahahahaha you don’t know me too well do you? I am ex navy mate, but keep it quiet 😉
Ex-RAN?
I won’t mention the Collins class subs or the SH-2G’s that don’t work or the airdefence destroyers we arguably don’t need then! 😀
I work in the Tasmanian health bureaucracy. Those guys are the epitome of inefficiency. I used to work for the local university – not only the epitome of inefficiency but the epitome of unprofessional as well.
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