How did those X-Wings fair against Japanese Imperial Navy fighters?
I know. But those were just examples from my memory, there surely are more.. F-18 of Kuwait, Finland, Switzerland and Australia, Jordanian F-16s Taiwanese Mirage 2000-5s, Austrian Typhoons etc. etc.
Kuwait already operated A-4 Skyhawks alongside Mirage F1’s
Finland had a 50-50 split of Western and Russian in order to show that it was neutral. As soon as they didn’t have to suck up to the Russians, they got rid of their MiG-21’s So a poltical choice.
Switzerland acquired more F-5E/F’s than it ever did Mirage III’s. Besides they purchase on the open market.
Australia also purchases on the open Western market (as long as it is Western).
Jordan has operated F-5’s for a long time and before that F-104’s. Their F-16’s are 2nd hand models and generally financed through FMS.
Taiwan’s purchase of M2000-5’s was interesting to say the least but it was basically because it could not get clearance for more advanced US built fighters (or so I remember).
Austria – open market?
Anyhow here is my analysis of the potential market for the Rafale.
South America – 0 sales prospects other than maybe some 2nd hand aircraft 50 years into the future. The Rafale is too expensive for most South American air arms. I think that even Brazil will opt for more 2nd hand M2000’s as they become available over the Rafale.
North America – 0 sales prospect for obvious reasons.
Europe – other than France, zero sales prospects. The only way the French are going to get any orders is if the JSF program is a total and utter failure.
Subsaharan Africa – No sales prospects for obvious reasons.
Middle East including North Africa – Even here things are looking grim. Saudi has chosen the Eurofighter, UAE the F-16E/F and M2000-9. Jordan can’t afford the Rafale. Bahrain and Kuwait are totally aligned with the USA. Qatar seems to want to get rid of its M2000’s but there is no talk of replacements. Egypt’s military is subsidised by the US and I think if it does acquire non-US fighters, they will be Chinese JF-17 paid out of their own wallet. Algeria is acquiring advanced Su-30/MiG-29’s. Tunisia is poor as is Morocco. Morocco is only a potential customer if someone else pays for them. Syria buys Russians and Iran is a no-no. Israel buys almost exclusively US and I don’t think they would want to risk another French embargo on parts etc.
So in my enlightenend opinion the only potential customers in this region are:
Libya (if they don’t go Russian but Gaddafi is an unpredictable git)
Morocco (if someone else pays for them)
South Asia – none. I think that India will acquire an upgraded MiG-29 for its 126 aircraft requirement. It makes sense as the type is already in service with the existing aircraft due for an upgrade and the new navalised aircraft due to enter service.
South East Asia – none. These countries are either too poor, are US alligned or are buying cheaper Russian.
North East Asia – none. Again these countries are either US alligned or are Communist or produce their own aircraft!
Australia – no sales prospects. Australia is firmly committed to the JSF.
Do you think there is a shortage of undemocratic, backwards, and aggressive actors in the region?
Without searching too far, how about Indonesia? (official military or paramil)
Malaysia?
Filipino Muslim terrs (MILF)?
etc…
All those yellow hordes are eager to come flooding into Australia to kill white men, enslave white children and rape white women. :rolleyes:
Last time I checked Malaysia was our ally for the most part, Indonesia is an impoverished country with several ongonig civil wars and the MILF is being tackled by the Philippines military together with significant US support.
Australia is getting 59 second hand and there was even talk of having them stationed in the US (basically we would have been subsidising a US armoured regiment).
Frankly I think it’s flushing money down the toilet along with the non-flying SH-2G’s and the AEGIS destroyers.
I actually think that Pakistan will continue buying F-16’s until it becomes the most numerically superior aircraft in the inventory. The JF-17 buy will be limited to 150 aircraft. My reasoning is based on this:
a.) Pakistan can’t afford expensive aircraft such as the F-35 orEurofighter
b.) Poltical obstacles means that it probably would not have access to the F-35 or Eurofighter anyway.
c.) Political obstacles also mean that Russian fighter aircraft are unobtainable
d.) I don’t think that Chinese aircraft provide any sort of operational improvement over an F-16. The last thing I read said the JF-17 was comparable to an F-16C-40 at best. The J-10 is still an unknown quantity to the West..
e.) The F-16 is available in large numbers and this will increase as the NATO airforces retire their F-16A/B’s in the near future. The USAF is also retiring it’s more modern F-16C/D’s. So the opportunity exists for more cheap second hand F-16’s. This sort of facility does not exist with other available aircraft – even the French never acquired that many Mirage 2000’s or the Swedes with their Gripens.
Is it supposed to be an argument ?
It’s a quite good argument. Look at Singapore and South Korea. They never operated French fighters and quickly fobbed off the Rafale in favour of the US made F-15, despite reports that the Rafale was superior.
Politics are more important than effectiveness when it comes to weapons procurement.
I don’t think they will acquire French fighters. They have never operated French fighters and the only time they’ve acquired them is for Arab allies such as Morrocco.
From what I understand the MiG-31 is a traditional interceptor and not a fighter in the modern sense of the word.
It cannot be used to haul ordnance and is not much of a dog fighter either. It’s basically a high speed missile delivery system designed to tear apart strategic bombers.
So you get a single role aircraft in an age where single role aircraft are considered innefficient.
Come off it sensitive deal—what is sensitive about selling a plane that is out dated and being phased out ( it was once a stellar plane in its hayday). But forget being outdated it is matched/outclassed by technology in the region already ( sukhois) so what is the sensitivity.
The sensitivity is that the USA does not want to destabilise the region or violate weapons proliferation treaties.
The US wants to maintain the status quo. If India maintains a massive qualitative and quantative advantage over Pakistan then that is the status quo. The USA wants to maintain that in order not offend emerging India too much and also to prevent an arms race.
The F-16 is still a highly capable aircraft and it still forms the backbone of most NATO airforces including the USA and is still being acquired by even prominent airforces such as Israel.
As for outclassed by the Su-30, remember that Vietnamese MiG-17’s and Mig-21’s were outclassed by US F-4’s etc and also horrifically outnumbered but were still effective due to innovative pilot tactics.
Well no strings attached means that Pakistan can use its F-16’s in an offensive manner and retrofit them with a nuclear capability. Quite clearly that does change the balance of power if you have 96 nuclear capable aircraft as opposed to none.
The USA does not want to upset the balance of power in the region. It’s trying to maintain peace. So Pakistan gets the F-16 but they are not capable of peeving the Indians off.
And as far I understand Saudi F-15S’ were also downgraded versions of the F-15E.
The USA does this to most of its export customers. As for using “outside of Pakistan’s airspace” this is fair enough as the system is meant to be a defensive one.
I thought VF-31 was meant to convert to F/A-18E/F in October?
Have any Israeli airstrikes been directed at Lebanese airforce assets? They currently have about 24 UH-1H’s and some R44 training helos (all fixed wing aircraft appear to be non-operational).
I don’t think stand alone price is everything. You have to take into account operational costs, availability (would the US sell Serbia an F-35?), manufacturer support, integration costs, operational suitability, potential industrial offsets, airframe development potential etc.
And I also thought the F-35’s standalone price was considerably higher than $33 million. I could be wrong though.