MountainAlmost unforgivable negligence here.
Parliamentary panel concerned that Sukhoi-30 fighters have no protective shelters
The Parliamentary Committee on Defence has noted with concern that the frontline combat aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF), Sukhoi-30MKI, do not have protection of hardened shelters in air bases which would save them from direct hits of bombs in the event of a war.
The report, which was submitted in parliament recently, says that “the Committee are concerned to find that our air force is already short of planes and worse than that hardened shelters are not available for even the limited numbers of aircraft that is available with the Service”.
The IAF informed the committee in oral evidence that the aircraft are deprived of hardened shelters because the Sukhoi-30 MKI cannot be fit into the existing ones because of their large size. “It is a much bigger aircraft. Therefore some New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) has to be made in which not only a SU-30 can fit but also servicing, loading of weapons and maintenance activities can be done inside the shelter,” the committee was informed.
The committee members were also informed by representatives of the MoD that the NGHAS “is a large project and it costs thousands of crores of rupees”. It was further informed that NGHAS are specialised structures and “are designed to save a Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft from direct hit of 2000 lbs bomb”.
The committee, which is headed by Major General BC Khanduri (retd) noted that it is extremely pertinent that no damage is caused to the available aircraft. It also said that while the New Generation Hardened Aircraft Shelter (NGHAS) project is conceptualised for this purpose, nevertheless, the committee desired that there should not be any delay in execution, as such delays have become a common feature of all the projects.
It was in 2002 that the first Russian-made Sukhoi-30MKI variant was accepted into the IAF while in 2004 the first indigenously assembled Su-30MKI entered service. The IAF had signed a contract initially for 272 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft to form 13 squadrons. The IAF informed the committee that the delivery of Sukhoi-30 MKI will continue till 2030, resulting in equipping 3 more squadron in the next four to five years. The IAF requires at least 45 fighter squadrons to counter a two front collusive threat against Pakistan and China. The IAF today has 35 active fighter squadrons as against a Government authorized strength of 42 squadrons.
In its recently tabled report on the manufacture of Sukhoi-30 MKI by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) too had pointed out certain anomalies with the aircraft due to it being parked in the open sun.
The CAG report had mentioned that a review of 42 cases of repairs undertaken by HAL in Sukhoi 30 MKI, up to March 2010, disclosed that fuel leakage was the main snag in 36 cases and complaints relating to leakage from fuel tank were reported by IAF immediately after delivery of the aircraft. The leakages had caused pre-mature withdrawal of the aircraft from active flying.
Among the reasons that that been attributed for the problem were that the Sukhoi-30 MKI had been “parked outside in hot conditions”. The HAL management had told CAG that the other reasons for leakages were operating the aircraft at higher ‘g’ levels, high manoeuvers and hard landings and aircraft parked without fuel for longer time. They had added that fuel leakages could not be fully excluded due to inherent design features of the aircraft.
The Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons of the IAF are today stationed at air force bases across the country. Among the places they are stationed at are Jodhpur, Halwara, Sirsa, Pune, Bareilly, Tezpur and Chhabua.
http://idrw.org/parliamentary-panel-concerned-that-sukhoi-30-fighters-have-no-protective-shelters/
MountainEvery air arm with have a host of a small number of special types. The combat power of the IAF v PAF lies simply in the massive amount of fighters.
To put it very bluntly, by 2020 (as more JF-17s and F-16s come online) PAF will have a 2 type (max 3 type fleet) of around 400 planes.
IAF will have a fleet of around 700 planes consisting of some 8 different types, some ancient types, with no prospect of immediate replacement of the 6 squadrons of ancient MIGS (as the LCA MK II is not due to flight test til 2018).
Really is that simple
MountainI listed out the aircraft that exist today not what might be years from now. And turns out you were wrong about the Aloutte, wrong about the T-37 and wrong about the Lama. So its probably prudent to stick to what is, rather than your prediction of what will be.
No, you are being deliberately disinegous with what you are stating as fact.
The Alouttes retired two years ago.
The F-27s and Atlantics you state as being in PN service were retired 3 years ago.
Nothing to do with predictions. PAF has been constantky withdrawing older fighters with more and more JF-17s coming online, whilst the IAF fleet continues to age.
Last cout JF-17 Block IIs are now rolling of the production line. 3 JF-17 sqds in service and 4 F-16 sqds. by 2020 all 6 remaining F-7 and Mirage sqds should be phased out if production continues as it is.
That will leave just a JF-17/F-16 fleet with perhaps F-7PGs as LIFT.
IAF is nowhere near replacing its aging MIGs.
MountainI’m not sure about this 2:1 ratio. Most AFs around the world have a 1-1.5:1 ratios. Imagine the stress on the fleet and the impact on pilot training hours with higher pilot:fighter ratio unless an AF makes up for training hours in simulators, which is obviously not as good as the real thing.
As for the types in PAF, one can put it down to resource crunch plus their worry of western sanctions. If they had as much cash as some other AFs, they would only have 2 fighter types. Beyond 2020, they would still have upgraded mirages (at least some). Even with the introduction of a more advanced Chinese version such as J31, they would still be operating JF-17 and F-16.
Lots of pilots spend a lot of time in desk jobs and retain type currency. The 2:1 cockpit ratio was actually in an AFM article.
PAF ACM has stated all Mirages will be retired by 2020
MountainWell, they have similar numerical variety of aircraft (PAF + PA) compare to IAF + IA. Both at 23 types.
For a country with a much smaller defense budged they surely would be facing logistical and training problems with such a large variety of aircraft. Given this their operational availability would also be hindered.
Not really, operational availability on the overall fleet is around 80%. PAF pilot to plane ration is about 2:1 which compares very favourably to most countries
MountainYou are still missing the point, PAF/Pak Army/PN are currently retiring many older types
k-8 replacing T-37s (the ones the US delivered were from 10 years ago)
JF-17 and F-16s replacing mirages and F-7s
Until the LCA MK2 comes along IAF will be saddled with 8 fighter types against PAF having 2 types.
Can you not understand the inherent implication of this on serviceability, pilot training, cost and logistics?
Mountainwhy does PAF have so many different type of aircraft?
they must have a terrible time training and logistics.
3 Mirage units already retired, F-7 also being retired as more and more JF-17s come online.
MountainI made that post to pour cold water on some very silly ideas being propagated on the IAF thread, not to start a pissing contest.
But for the record, if you add the Indian Navy and Coast Guard, you get an additional 7 types – Sea King, Ka-28, BN-2, Il-38, Tu-142, P-8I). [BTW that’s 7 types for the PN as well – Sea King, Z-9, ATR-72, PC-3, Atlantic, F27, Hawker 800]. Haven’t included the Harriers, MiG-29Ks and Ka-31s, for obvious reasons.
Atlantic and F-27 retired
MountainI’ll simplify this as VNomad seems incapable of understanding the math here
By 2020 PAF is on course to have 2 types of fighters in it’s fleet (Two Mirage sqds have already been retired and replaced by JF-17s and a Mirage unit was also replaced by F-16C/D)
IAF will still have the following by 2020
MIG-21 BIson ( due to be replaced whenever LCA MK2 arrives)
MIG-27
MIG-29 (upgrades being worked on)
Mirage 2000 (upgrades being worked on)
Su-30
Rafael
LCA MK1
Jaguar ( being upgraded)
Let me know if any of the above is incorrect
MountainSince you insist on greasing the ledge you’re hanging from –
IAF + IA: 23 types –
[MiG-21, MiG-27, MiG-29, Jaguar, Mirage 2000, Su-30MKI, Tejas] | [Hawk, Kiran, PC-7] | [C-17, C-130J, HS-748, Il-76/Il-78/A-50I, An-32, Do-228, ERJ-145] | [Mi-25/Mi-35, Mi-26, Mi-8/Mi-17, Dhruv/Rudra, Cheetah, Chetak]
PAF + PA: 23 types –
[JF-17, F-16, Mirage III/Mirage V, F-7] | [MFI-17, K-8, T-37] | [C-130, CN-235, Il-78, Saab 2000, Y-8, Falcon 20] | [Aloutte III, Lama, Mi-17, SA 330, Z-10, AH-1, IAR-330, Fennec/AS350, Bell 206, Bell 412]
Haven’t included additional types serving in the IN (10) & PN (7) since the latter doesn’t have any carrier based aviation.
.
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.And the IAF’s East-West redundancy paid off during the Kargil War, where the IAF’s Mirages were still running fully serviceable (regardless of the MiG issues brought on by the Soviet collapse) unlike the PAF’s sanctions affected F-16s.
Wrong again, Aloutte and Lama now out of service and all the helicopter types bar the MI-17s are in the ARMY not the Air Force. The Fennec has replaced the Bell 206 as well. So you need to deduct three types. Additionally the K-8 is replacing the T-37, so deduct another type.
MountainAnd what about the IAF in all of this?
I am pretty sure they would have taken 126 Rafales over 200 odd LCAs any day
MountainWell, lets hope thats the case before production closes. As stated, no plans for now. If you ask me, the IAF is finding itself in exactly the same situation it was with in the 80s with the Mirage 2000. Whole thing is an utter shambles…
MountainDoesn’t really matter what the Minister says today, the point is that further Rafale orders will be the logical option if there are further problems/delays with LCA or FGFA.
However it certainly confirms that the original buy was a matter of satisfying the relevant interest groups with the smallest possible commitment. A political decision, not one made in the national interest.
No offence Rii but this is why it is hard to take some Indian posters seriously anymore.
At first when we doubted the 126 HAL/Dassault deal it was pointed out that “The defence minister has confirmed blah blah”
Now when things go against the word view according to you we have “Doesnt really matter what the minister says”. Am I to assume now that whatever statements the Indian Defence Minister comes out with we can discard? That is the logic of your argument.
Yes, it would be logical to buy more, but as we have seen with many many Indian procurements, logic never seems to be the overiding factor.
Could well be the IAF will be supporting just 24-27 Rafales in 2025, and production lines may well be closed by then anyway.
MountainYup, and with attrition means they could be left suporting just one squadron of planes…
MountainSnippets from PAF ACM interview in this months AFM
3rd JF-17 Sqd fully operational at CCS which is a verson of NATO TLC and USAF Fighter Weapons School
Block II Thunders now rolling off production line
Two seater JF-17 to fly next year, to be used as LIFT
JF-17 Block III to have AESA and brand new undisclosed weapons.
JF-17s have been on air defence alert with SD-10A for “last few years”
Combination of Sniper ATP and DB100 Recce pod on F-16s and C-130s with SAFIR pods revolutionised PAF ISR capabilities
Mirage and F-7 pilots now transitioning to F-16/JF-17s after just 200 hours as opposed to 400 hours prior
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