MountainJ-10B apparently has a AESA on it
MountainNot just the Bisons, a good 6 squadrons of MIG-27s too. Combine those with the MIG-21s and you are looking at 12-14 odd squadrons that need replacing over the next 5 years, and SU-30s being produced at just underneath a squadron a year, 40 LCAs and perhaps no Rafales, then you can easily see why squadron numbers continue to fall for India over the next 5-10 years.
MountainEveryone has named the obvious candidates…but to stretch the question…the oldest designed for the military type still in production…my guess is the C-130.
Yup, pretty certain that a few of the Ex RAF C-130s sold to Mexico and Sri Lanka and a couple of the ones still in Pakistani service are from late 50s to very early 60s at least.
MountainArgentina didn’t have that option and still don’t as successive governments have screwed up the funding.
Hindsight must surely apply to options that were actually available and viable.
If we are not to apply that criteria i’ll take a few squadrons of carrier capable A10’s in the 1777 timeframe and pop them on my fleet of nuclear carriers i’ll have pootling up and down between Boston and the Cheaspeake. USA, what USA?
Same thing with Iran, not a viable option. It’s not only Israel that would not allow Iran to acquire a force as you describe. There would be some interesting bedfellows working very hard to nulify such a proposal.
Thanks for the sarcasm.
Your point applies to many of the other options air forces had as funding/politics played roles in them choosing whatever aircraft they did. Please do lighten me on the criteria we are supposed to use. That or maybe lighten up a tad yourself?
MountainImagine if Argentina got few sqds of SU-30s in the 90s when he RAF only had Tornado F3s guarding the Falklands……
Or Iranian AF with SU-30s, AWACS and MIG-35s. Would give Israel second thoughts about potential strikes.
MountainThe USAF was forced to get rid of the A-10’s due to budgetary considerations that forced them into a corner and juggle between modernization and readiness. If given enough money they would like to do both of those tasks.
Sure, and there is my point. “If given enough money”. They know they do not, hence they have thrown in everything in order t safe guard just one incredibly expensive programe. To the point of giving up the A-10 and an F-16 upgrade programe. If the world’s wealthiest air force by a very large margin feels the need to focus it’s budgets and efforts on just two fighter programes, then you can imagine how difficult it is for the IAF to manage 5 fighter aqusition programes and 3 fighter upgrade programes at the same time right?
MountainLots of interesting Pak-Turkey developments in the pipeline…..
Pakistani Turkish Defense Ties Continue to Deepen
By Usman Ansari10:50 a.m. EST January 3, 2015
635556311548745053-large-atak-2012-8-.jp
(Photo: Turkish Aerospace Industries)
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ISLAMABAD — The Pakistan-Turkey defense industrial relationship continues to deepen with more bilateral projects being promoted and undertaken such as aircraft, ships and tanks.
“As a matter of policy, we encourage Turkish industry to broaden their business activity and defense cooperation with Pakistan,” said a senior official with Turkey’s Under Secretariat for Defence Industries. “Not only do the two countries have a fraternal relationship, politically speaking, but also there are prospective areas for technology sharing and joint development. We do not view Pakistan as a market but as a present and future partner.”
A London-based Turkey specialist, however, highlighted the restrictions.
“Obviously both sides are keen to cooperate more than past and present. One major problem could be Pakistan’s fiscal constraints.”
The latest agreement was signed between Pakistan’s Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) and Turkey’s Nurol Technologies at Pakistan’s biennial defense show, the International Defence Exhibition And Seminar 2014 (IDEAS2014), held Dec. 1-4 in Karachi.
A HIT spokesman confirmed Nurol will transfer technology to help HIT manufacture armored vehicles to B7-plus protection levels.
HIT already cooperates with Turkish companies such as defense electronics firm Aselsan, a representative of which said the two sides have cooperated for about 10 years.
As a result, Aselsan has supplied sighting and other sub-systems for Pakistan’s Al-Zarrar/upgraded Type-59 tanks and Ukrainian-supplied T-80UD, and transferred radio design and manufacture technology.
He said it was possible Aselsan could supply technology developed for Turkey’s Leopard II upgrade and Altay tank programs for Pakistan’s Al-Khalid, but claimed Aselsan had not yet been contacted in this regard.
HIT officials say a key item sought for the Al-Khalid is a third generation thermal imaging sight such as the Altay’s.
Analyst Usman Shabbir of the Pakistan Military Consortium think tank said that since the French Al Khalid sight is too expensive, and the Franco-Pakistani defense relationship has deteriorated, Turkey is a viable alternative supplier.
He believes there may be further benefits in deepening the Pakistani-Turkish defense relationship that could allow export of the Al-Khalid, hitherto prevented by high foreign sub-systems content.
Indigenization of sub-systems and others from Turkey will potentially change this.
“I don’t see any issue with exporting Al-Khalid with Turkish sub-systems as we are not competing for the same market, and Pak/Turkish relations are also deep and very well established,” he said.
Aselsan is also partnered with Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI), and defense software firm Havelsan in bidding to upgrade Pakistan’s ATR-72 patrol aircraft after the tender was reopened shortly before IDEAS2014.
Havelsan’s Nejat Gokbakar (who revealed Havelsan had also submitted an independent proposal) and TAI’s Gokberk Ozturk said the Pakistan Navy was impressed after examining the Turkish Navy’s ATR-72s, the standard of which is now being offered to Pakistan. They are optimistic of success.
Ozturk also revealed TAI hopes to build upon giving subcontracting work on the Anka UAV to Pakistan Aeronautical Complex by “looking for opportunities to export it to Pakistan.”
“We’re aware the Pakistan Air Force is using FLIR-equipped C-130s, so the Anka is far better suited in every respect,” he added.
TAI is pursuing multiple avenues of business with Pakistan, including promoting the T-129 helicopter.
Ozcan Ertem, executive vice president and head of Aircraft Group, said TAI is also ready to explore any opportunity to supply a variant of its Hurkus turboprop trainer.
However, one Turkish aviation expert said the Turkish military’s persistent push to buy an extra batch of Korean-made KT-1 basic trainers could prune export prospects for the Hurkus.
“The reluctant potential buyers could include Pakistan, given the message of uncertainty over the Hurkus,” he said.
The Turkish military has signed a deal with TAI to buy 10 Hurkus, but is pressing for a follow-on order from Korean Aerospace Industries for 15 KT-1s in an approximately $150 million deal. In 2007, Turkey and KAI signed a contract for the sale of an initial batch of 40 KT-1s, with an option for 15 more. The industry widely views the Turkish move to buy new KT-1s as a sign of mistrust in TAI’s delivery schedule, planned for 2017-18.
Yonca Onuk, maker of advance composite fast attack, interception, and patrol craft, also seeks to deepen its relationship with Pakistan. Having already supplied it with MRTP-15 and MRTP-33 boats, it is now hoping for success with its MRTP-34.
Ekber I.N. Onuk said the MRTP-34, (of which he said Qatar has purchased three), was an improvement of the MRTP-33, which Pakistan’s Navy has praised for “excellent sea keeping and handling qualities” plus lethality and versatility.
Consequently, he believes the MRTP-34 “is a boat the Pakistan Navy needs,” specifically for operations in and around the contested Indo-Pakistani maritime border.
“The MRTP-34, when operated in the Creeks area, in conjunction with a network-centric warfare capability, means that they would be as lethal as a cobra in the bushes,” he said.
Also being promoted is the larger, more capable MRTP-45, and there are hopes for wider cooperation.
“We see people have understood the strength of the Turkish defense industry, and we will be able to provide state-of-the-art naval platforms, equipped with state-of-the-art systems, including anti-ship missiles,” Onuk said.
Therefore, the company is in talks to build its largest design, the MRTP-65, at Karachi Shipyard & Engineering Works (KSEW). The steel hull and composite superstructure will be fabricated in Pakistan through technology transfer.
Shabbir said “Yonca Onuk is probably offering to build the MRTP-65 at KSEW to sweeten the deal plus cut cost as it will be certainly cheaper to build it at KSEW,” but he is “not sure if [the Navy] is going to go for it though, considering that they need funds for some other more critical projects.”
Despite its vessels growing in size, Onuk said it will “stick to what we know” and not offer or develop corvettes.
Having already sold a fleet tanker design now under construction at KSEW, the design, project management, and technical support firm STM will continue to promote a corvette design. STM representatives discussed present and potential cooperation with Pakistan naval chief Adm. Muhammad Zakaullah at IDEAS2014.
Whether Pakistan will eventually opt for a derivative of Turkey’s Milgem/Ada is uncertain, though STM is also able to offer its smaller CL-1600 corvette if the Navy revives its corvette program shelved since 2008.
Burak Ege Bekdil in Ankara contributed to this report.
MountainAnd it seems you are capable of civility.
There is much to be said when countries just try and focus on a very few programes and try and do the very well, rather then take on everything.
Even the USAF has just focused on F-35 and F-22 and is actually going all out to rid itself of A-10s and F-16s (Congress allowing).
Imagine if India did the same and just focused on 2-3 fighter types and to hell with everything else?
MountainLove this thread!
PAF was offered the A-7 and F-5 in the 70s and F-16/J79 and Northrop F-20 in the early 80s (instead of the F-16). In all three cases I am pretty sure the PAF were happy holding out for the full F-16A/B in the end.
In the 90s when under US sanctions the Mirage 2000-5 was offered to Pakistan (politics and money ended up scuppering the deal) and instead PAF went with F-7PGs and the Mirage ROSE I/II/III upgrades.
If Pakistan had got 40 odd Mirages 2000-5s it may well have terminated the JF-17 programme and PAF used the money to purchase more used and new Mirage 2000-5s eding up with a F-7P/Mirage2000-5/F-16 fleet.
MountainIt’s a real mess. The Indians have simply over stretched themselves. Several competing power bases (HAL, IAF, Arms dealers, MOD) have ensured that energy and money has been spread far too thinly across too many future projects. As a result not enough money, time or effort can be focused. Just look
Rafale, LCA MK1, LCA MKII, FGFA, AMCA, SU-30+, MIG-29 upgrade, Mirage 2000 upgrade, Jaguar upgrade.
I simply cannot think or any other country taking on that much. Obviously the IAF had future requirments that need to be filled, but with too many chiefs things are simply not getting done. 10 years ago all they needed to do was buy as many Mirage 2000-5/9s (used and second hand) upgraded their current M2Ks, carried on churning out SU-30s and just wait for the FGFA and AMCA to come on line from 2025 onwards. In the meantime they would have had a perfectly decent air force for a fraction of the cost (and number of Military Aviation Forum threads!).
Instead now almost every project if moving very slowly or not at all.
MountainWith the Indian defence minister now talking of additional SU-30MKI buys instead of the Rafale this deal is dead in the water, as I said a year ago.
Just seems neither side (for its own reasons) has the guts to admit it publicly yet….
MountainAfter the C-130J crash when I mentioned lack of training could be a factor several members blew their top, so the below is interesting….
Pilots Died Because of Lack of Trainer Aircraft and Training Aids, Says Government Auditor
NEW DELHI: Accidents involving fighter aircraft of the Indian Air Force in 2012-13 were caused due to “technical defects” and “human error”, according to a report by the Comptroller and Auditor General. The number of such mishaps were considerably higher than in the past, says the government auditor.
The CAG report says there were as many as 33 accidents in which 27 pilots lost their lives in the period that was audited.
These accidents happened, the report says, because the Air Force could no longer train its pilots properly – it didn’t have the full complement of basic trainer’s aircraft, intermediate and advanced jet trainers and even simulators.
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The report also says that the Bangalore-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) – a defense public sector unit – has been trying to develop a trainer aircraft for the Air Force for the last 14 years. Its inability to produce an aircraft has “adversely affected the stage-II training of pilots” – when they graduate to fly in supersonic speed, the auditor has observed.
The report has also found that the Air Force paid HAL over Rs. 3,000 crore for developing the trainer aircraft but around Rs. 6 crore have been spent so far.
If the non-availability of aircraft and training aid adversely affected the fighting capability of the India Air Force, its inability to store “sophisticated air armament, missiles, bombs” was also an area of concern, according to the report. Whereas the armament and missiles need to be stored in controlled, “dust-free conditions” and expired ammunition in designated bays carefully to “prevent environmental hazards”, “certain stores are being kept” in the open, the report says
The auditor also said the Air Force faces shortage of “firefighting equipment”.
The report further finds that the air element of the Indian Navy suffered equally due to the shortage of a particular category of torpedoes used from helicopters. These torpedoes are considered as critical deterrents against submarines. The CAG report, in fact, indicates that the Navy didn’t have the minimum number of torpedoes that are required in case hostilities break out.
Inquiries by the government auditor has also revealed that Bharat Dynamics Limited – another defence public sector unit – which was to supply the torpedoes to the Navy could only supply “13 per cent of the required numbers”. The inquires also reveal that major changes were made to specifications such as speed for the shipborne and fixed-wing version of the torpedo which were accepted by the Navy. Shockingly, the CAG report has found that the entire exercise began in 2006 but all versions of the torpedoes that can be fired from all helicopters in the Navy stable is yet to be completed.
MountainAir Force procured untested, unsafe helmets, says CAG
The Indian Air Force procured untested flying helmets that put the lives of its pilots at such risk, that on at least eight instances, these helmets flew off when pilots ejected from MIG-21 and MIG-27 aircraft, the Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) has submitted in Parliament.
In a report tabled in Parliament on Friday, the CAG has stated that the Air Headquarters procured 1,225 helmets from two private suppliers based in New Delhi and Faridabad respectively and that these helmets were then distributed to various depots between December 2008 and January 2011.
As per the report, an audit in September 2013 noticed that eight helmets had flown off pilots’ head during ejection in the years 2010 and 2011, with the official audit body stating that these “indigenous helmets” were inducted into service without requisite testing and certification.
While the CAG detected the unsafe helmets in 2013, the IAF seems to have been aware of the problem earlier. Air Force authorities had held an interactive session among various stakeholders in September 2011 in which users brought out various problems such as availability of the helmets in only two sizes and sought necessary improvement for comfort and safety.
Accordingly, the Director General (Inspection & Safety) had suggested both ‘short-term’ and ‘long-term’ measures to effectively eliminate the problem of helmets flying off during ejection, stating that these helmets would be replaced by ‘common helmets and masks’ which would be tested and certified products.
As a result, the Directorate of Stores, IAF, informed the CAG that 157 helmets were modified at a cost of Rs 21.81 lakh and that another lot of 94 helmets were then under modification at Rs 13.06 lakh. The headquarters also told the Defence Ministry in June 2014 that once the issues were noticed, steps were taken at the highest level and the helmets were made usable. It, however, allegedly did not respond to the CAG observation regarding authorisation granted for the induction of indigenous helmets without requisite testing and certification.
– See more at: http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-others/air-force-procured-untested-unsafe-helmets-says-cag/#sthash.o1IG6OYA.dpuf
MountainIndian Air Force has lost edge over Pakistan: Parliamentary Panel
New Delhi: In a shocking revelation, the parliamentary standing committee on defence said that the Indian Air Force is down to just 25 fighter squadrons from a sanctioned strength of 42. This means India may have already lost its strategic edge over Pakistan as far as fighter squadrons are concerned. The committee said the situation was very grim and that national security was being compromised.
The committee said that the IAF requires at least 45 fighter squadrons to counter a two-front threat, but the government has authorised a strength of only 42.
“(On) existing squadron strength, it is learnt we are down to 25 squadrons today, though there is authorisation for 42 combat squadrons. The strength will be reduced to just 11 squadrons by 2024,” it said.
The report also mentioned serious shortages of submarines in the Navy and equipment and weaponry for the Army. The committee also slammed the inadequate allocated funding for the crucial Mountain Strike Corps in the eastern sector and added, in another shocking revelation, that the new corps is being raised with “war wastage reserves”.
The report also slammed the Ministry of Defence (MoD) for not procuring an adequate number of bullet-proof jackets, thus endangering the lives of thousands of soldiers. It also expressed serious concern over crucial proposed defence procurements languishing which could affect national security in a big way.
As per the information submitted by the Ministry, it was found that there are 37 cases of procurement pending at 13 different pre-Contract Negotiation Committee (CNC) stages. According to this information the time taken at each stage is sufficiently more than what is accorded by DPP. Further, it was also found that 27 cases are lying at post CNC stages. This makes a total of 64 cases of pending capital procurements.
The Committee are not happy with such an indolent state of affairs because of the DPP. They are of the opinion that if this trend is allowed to continue, all the important acquisitions will keep languishing resulting in compromising the National security in a big way. In 1999-2000; the defence expenditure was 2.41% of the GDP and it had a continuous slide and since then this financial year, it came down to 1.78% of the GDP. The Committee perceives it to be a grim and unacceptable situation which is affecting all the Services of defence forces considerably,” the report has said.
“With regard to submarines, it was revealed that there are presently 14 conventional submarines (including Sindhurakshak) in the Indian Navy. Most conventional submarines are over 20 years old and are reaching the end of their service life. As far as strength of submarines is concerned, 18 are planned though existing force level is much less and most of them are vintage and old. The Committee are concerned to note that during the last 15 years only one submarine has been inducted (Sindhushastra in July 2000) and five submarines have been deinducted,” the committee has noted.
“The Committee note that Mountain Strike Corps which is needed to counter advances of neighbouring countries at high altitude areas has been sanctioned keeping in view the 15 – year perspective plan. However, the Committee are surprised to note that for raising of this Corps, no separate allocation has been made in this year’s budget. As informed, an amount of Rs. 5000 crore has been earmarked for it but it is not over and above the actual budget allocated and the Army has been asked to raise this Corps out of its own budget.
The Committee also came to know that for raising this corps only war wastage reserves are being utilised. It seems very impractical and incongruous that a new Corps is being raised with war wastage reserves. The Committee feel that the Ministry should do away with its proclivity of ad-hoc planning and provide adequate budgetary support commensurate with the requirement of Mountain Strike Corps,’ the report has said.
On lack of crucial bullet-proof jackets for Army troops, the report said, “The Committee are perturbed over the fact that such an important life saving device (bullet-proof jackets) has not been purchased by the Ministry jeopardising the lives of thousands of soldiers.” “The Committee analysed from the information supplied to them that availability of (battle) tanks is very low and the requirement of tanks is also being filled with the MBT Arjun,” the report said.
The Committee further said that it is “dismayed to learn that DRDO started working on INSAS Rifle way back in 1982 but surprisingly it took 14 years in its development and could able to deliver the Rifle only in 1996. But just after 3 years, the quality of rifle tested in Operation Vijay revealed that product was not up to the mark and many improvements were needed. The Committee find it shocking that even years of expertise has not evolved DRDO to develop a world class basic product like rifle,” the report said.
MountainRafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat
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