Funds will be provided as per the original estimate. as much as you hope that it wont. Lose another argument? lol ! How old are you?

No need to start the insults as you usually do, usually the first sign that someone is losing an argument.

You stated funds will be provided for this deal, for 126 aircraft, it is looking less likley that andeal will now be concluded, despite several posters here a few months ago claiming “new government will approve”, “waiting till after the elections”, “waiting for next fiscal year”, “waiting for full ToT agreement”.

All of the above were stated, so I am going to state the obvious. There is no money left in the pot. The last PM of India stated this and now even Indian officials are stating this.

You of course are absolutely free to continue to indulge yourself……..

Not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, so long as the ToT side of things remains intact. Obviously both Dassault and the IAF would prefer the full 126, but the numbers will likely be made up in time with the kinds of follow-on orders that are common in Indian procurement. Indeed IAF/MoD are almost certainly in a much better position today to project and balance Tejas/MMRCA/Su-30MKI/FGFA production and induction rates than they were back in 2007.

I dont think its that rosy really is it?

Tejas – Major issues with MKI and and MKII has not taken off yet…….

SU-30MKI – Correct in saying HAL does not event have the capability to properly support the fleet going by availability levels?

FGFA – Not for another 5 years right? That is even being very optimistic

MMRCA – This deal is not just being downsized but may be scrapped according to some reports.

So something similar to what the South Koreans did to get the F-35 instead of the F-15SE..

80 Rafales is still a sizeable number and the IAF may reluctantly have to agree to such a proposal if that is what it takes to get the contract signed. They’ll look to add additional batches of Rafales down the line when HAL will be manufacturing them mostly in-house. Perhaps they could add the remaining 46 as options which would have to be exercised by a given date to get them at the current price..and if the economic situation improves, those options could well be exercised.

I actually dont doubt that, but the point was there was a lot of individuals claiming that “money is no issue” and that in the next years budget everything would be hunky dory. That is no turning out not to be the case.

AIM-9P’s & Martin-Baker seats on a MiG-17 variant? You sure you’re not thinking of the J-6 (MiG-19)?

Thanks for sharing all the photos Flanker_man, and to all who have posted I appreciate your input.

The JJ-5 in particular interests me as its somewhat Q-5-like in that its essentially a wholly Chinese design, but using components from Soviet designs.

It was done to all Chinese fighters entering service, in fact need for ejection seat is a more important requirement in FT-5.

In 70s and 80s this aircraft was used for lead in fighter training (which it did fine considering the vast bulk of PAF fighters were F-6s back then) and would have been used in front line in time of war (not a very attractive proposition to go into combat with though!)

Sunni is 20% of the population, Kurd is 20%, and Shia makes up most of the remainder with very small fractions of Christians and Turkmen. ISIS does not represent the Sunni, it represents an offshoot of radical Sunni beliefs. The Sunni have merely cheered the removal of Shia, they do not truly back the ISIS radicalism. I suggest you become informed before acting like a jackass.

Thanks for the insult, post reported.

In a earlier post you just stated ISIS was Shia, I corrected you. Why are you finding this hard to understand?

The big picture is that Iraq has iron that fits on these Frogfoot aircraft and rudimentary ability to get support crews for them assembled now, not later. The Shia is no fewer than five independently thinking major groups with a common glue called ISIS. (ISIL for some of you.). Two weeks they’ll be operational at a crude level.

ISIS is Sunni, not Shia.

Those rates are wrong and reflect both a misinterpretation of the earlier issue – “50% for the Batch 1 MKIs”, plus the aircraft due for overhaul (7 per HAL, around 15-20 total over the next couple of years included) and also the rapid expansion of the IAF into new AFB especially in the NE, where repair facilities at each AFB are not at the level of Pune and the other established ones. Those aircraft need to be flown back to other IAF AFB or HAL for rework. The Russians have now been drafted in to plan an expansion of IAF maintenance & overhaul facilities to cope up with the expansion of AFB. This is a first priority.

Please reread the following.
zeenews.india.com/news/nation/iaf-chief-reviews-su-30-fighter-jet-production-facility_937877.html
HAL & private firms make a ton of systems locally already
“HAL has manufactured approximately 43,000 components in airframe and 6,300 components for engines. Twenty six special technologies have been absorbed and mastered,” it said.

http://www.defenseworld.net/interview/81/Russia_Setting_Up_Repair_And_Overhaul_Facility_For_Su_30MKI_in_India#.U6nb0rFW_gQ

So heres how things are. HAL has made planes and mastered TOT to a high level. But those items are sufficient for its own production. Its also assembling kits. The IAF is taking the ton of Sukhois its getting and putting them in multiple AFB (to prevent any decapitation strike on 1-2 bases). This new strategy has made the original hub and spoke model of maintenance pretty defunct. The Sukhois at hub are fine. Some of the spokes ok. Some at the farthest end at bare bone new AFs not so much. Their ORR (Op rate) is affected. So they have to fly back for repair or spares have to be procured by IAF from mix of Indian and Russian vendors.

And
http://www.defencenews.in/defence-news-internal.aspx?id=IK/iQsrOuU4=

So solutions
0. Speed up HAL ROH for existing aircraft sent there
1.HAL is now stockpiling spares (as I mentioned previously) so IAF will source from HAL which will aggregate them from Russia, sparing the IAF significant burden in managing spares timelines. It is also ramping uip a plan for long term local supply of spares: http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2013/3/5/1556/
2. Establish new hubs in specific areas with significant investment in aircraft maintainance and repair beyond what an AFB designed to handle a limited number of MiGs can manage.

Net, overall levels will average around the usual 70% level, which BTW, are down from the 80-90% level which was being achieved by these aircraft and which is expected of them.

Typically, the IAF has managed 70% readiness rates for peacetime ops for most of its aircraft, bar occasional blips when spares supplies were disrupted. Newer types with assured supply, eg Mirage 2000s and Jaguars have typically fared better than the MiGs which were not made in India. Indian MiGs have done ok but run into the occasional design issue wherein we fly it a way the Russians never planned for, and then the entire stuff starts off rectification. Later on HAL itself did a lot of these as well to good effect.

Wartime readiness is a whole different ballgame – every aircraft possible will be made flight ready, hoarded stocks of spares are also available.

Its no coincidence that after Parakram in 2001, the MiG-27s went on its way out. It would have been used heavily during that quasi war period.

Now, easy way to solve the whole issue is to again base all the Sukhois around Pune/Nashik cluster – you’ll get a nice high 80-90% serviceability. But make them vulnerable in the process as are other AF which park majority of their hightech squadrons in just 1-2 AFB.

Then how comes other air forces who disperse their aircraft to several different bases away from their main hub dont suffer such poor servicability rates?
How do you know “hoarded stocks of spares” are available? It seems to me the issue is they actually dont have any spare reserves at all, so how would this big stock magically appear!?

It can be both true and untrue…
Availability also depends on needs and investments in supply chains etc. For example, one may just build a pool of spares for all over india, and availability will disminish due to logistics… But could quickly raise up in case of emergency.
The real availability measurements should be during war operations, which i hope india will not see.
Dunno if i was clear in my statements, forgive old non english-born writer 🙂

Not really

Realistic training and pilot hours are dependent on aircraft availability, as is even QRA and other operational tasks.

At 40% availability you can be sure there is either a shortage of MKI pilots or if there are enough, they are suffering from a lack on flying hours.

Wartime will actually worsen the situation as all spares and pilots will have to be concentrated in just a couple of squadrons. Suddenly raising a pool os spares during a sudden attack may be wishful thinking, especially in an all our war, where international flights may be banned or cargo flights even targeted.

40% is a very low rate