suflanker45Ibsolutely GREAT example of the ignorance & short sightedness of F 22 opponents!
Sure the F-15 has done well against adversaries IN THE PAST but what about 10, 20, 30 years from now? And since you appearantly haven’t noticed Russia has been exporting weapons as (& in some cases MORE) advanced that it itself has been acquiring. And if we would procure enough of them, the F-22 would not be THAT pricey. A F-22 at ~$120 million would be a steal compared to a ~$90 million F-15.
So we need to build more F-22’s because Russia sold 30-40 Su-30’s to India and a dozen or more to Malaysia and Indonesia? I don’t know how many Su-30’s Venezuela bought but I’m sure its not 700+ units.
Yes if you make more the price will go down but why spend money on an aircraft that was designed for only one role, A2A. Oh yeah, Lockheed managed to tack on a limited A2G role but a 90mil multi-role F-15E is a lot better than a 120mil F-22 that can only carry a couple of JDAMs.
That’s what it comes down to in this day and age, economics, more bang for the buck. The F-35 is a true mult-role and therefore a more cost effective aircraft considering how many are planned and how many other nations are involved in it.
Something else to keep in mind the F-22 avionics date from the mid to late 90’s, its tech is already pushing 10 years old. The avionics on the F-35 are more advanced and more flexible.
As for what happens 30 years from now, again look at economics. Do you see any nation in the near future that will have the economy to support a large number of F-22 like aircraft. Both Russia with PAK-FA and China with J-XX don’t seem to be in any hurry to rush those aircraft into production. If they do put both designs in service in say 10 years from now the F-22 design and avionics will be 20 years old. Considering what’s going on right now with the global economy the world’s militaries better be happy with what they have right now for an extra few years.
Yeah it may be nice to have the coolest, fastest most tricked out hotrod in da’hood but what good is it when you can’t afford to put gas in it.
suflanker45Asking about what capable enemy did the F-15 fight brings us back to the first point. Is the F-22 a waste of money?
I agree that the F-15 has been flown by some of the best trained pliots in the world. The US, Israeli, Saudi, Japanese and now South Korean and soon Singapore. All have well funded armed forces. Its opponents have been lesser trained and equipped. The Serbs had the best training of the Eagle’s adversaries but let’s face it they had the “export” MiG-29A’s and were trained in the old Soviet style of relying on ground controllers. If the F-15 is still the king of the hill just replace the old F-15’s with new builds with new avionics instead of building the pricey F-22.
The F-22 was designed in the mid 80’s to go into service in the mid 90’s to face the Soviet fighter hordes however the Soviet Union collasped and the F-22 program was delayed and scaled back like the Eurofighter and the Rafale.
IMHO the F-22 is a waste of money and resources in the current environment but the program was really too far along when the Cold War ended and it was the US Air Force’s baby and they weren’t going to kill it.
suflanker45I believe the read the the Russians were giving them the Gorky so to speak but the Indians would have to pay for the refit. Sounds like Sevmash knew where they could make their money.
suflanker45There is a picture of an F-4 parked on a Soviet airfield. It is standing beside a Mirage III. However, it is most likely a mock-up. As the F-4 equipped many western air forces, a thourough inspection had made sense. That is, effective radar range, radar signature and efficient combat tactics. More or less like West Germany did when they got two Su-20 from Egypt.
Its possible that the Soviets got their hands on F-4s when South Vietnam fell in the early 70’s. We turned over tons of hardware over to the armed forces of South Vietnam when we pulled out. The only F-14 rumors I ever heard of was the Iranians turned over a couple of Phoenix missles and let the Soviets get a look at the Tomcat’s radar.
suflanker45So tell me what country that has flankers in large numbers that pose a threat to the US? Russia? Their broke. China? They need the US right now. We buy everything they make. Their own people can’t afford to buy the stuff they make right now. Also China has most of Congress in their pocket that allows them to steal our technology and lobby for favorable trade pacts. The other former Soviet Republics? Those that are not in NATO can barely operate what armed forces they have. Vietnam? They have what five? Ethiopia? They have only a few. Venezuela? Are they going to buy a hundred of them? Did the sale in Indonesia go through?
Russia has been trying to sell weapons to everybody but how many nations bought their stuff? I’m not saying that their stuff is crap, its good stuff but the Western defense contractors and governments make sure Russia is shutout of most of the arms market through discrediting Russia, strongarming and under the table methods.
How long is it going to take Russia to build the next generation fighter? How many can they afford to build? If they build it at all. How many Su-34’s have been built so far? It’s has top prioritiy and they have less than 30 or 40 and the program has been going how long?
As for China’s JXX it will take a few years before it comes on line. The big question is will China be a threat to the US 10 to 20 years from now? Yeah there’s the Taiwan question but with Congress in China’s pocket and a general lack of will in the US I doubt we would go to war with China over Taiwan.
suflanker45The F-22 was on Rumsfeld’s hit list of weapons programs that he wanted cancelled. The Commanche the Crusader and I think the DDX were on that list. He had been trying to convert the US military to be more mobile and be better able to deal with a new kind of warfare. After all what can the F-22 do against a terrorist attack? The weapons that I listed were developed to deal with a Soviet Union style enemy. However the bureaucrats in the Pentagon (generals included) fought Rumsfeld tooth and nail. However their will be more F-22’s. The Air Force has spread out the production to after 2008 with Bush (who sided with Rummy) out of the White House. I hear that Secdef Gates just loves the F-22. Even if a democrat is elected president the F-22 and F-35 will still go ahead because that’s what the bureaucrats, the generals and the politicans who control the districts and states the F-22/ F-35 parts are/will be made in want the programs to continue. Clinton wasn’t a big fan of the military but all the Cold War era weapons programs continued under his watch.
suflanker45Honestly, I got no idea. Shot down over Atlantic? Landed somewhere, passengers killed and the aircraft taken apart? I cannot support any version..
:rolleyes:
suflanker45To you I haven’t proven a thing because you reject all the evidence that doesn’t fit your theory.
Europe is irrelevant to me. Your time has past.
If you want to be taken seriously you had better start backing up your BS. From what I’ve have seen in this thread I’m not the only one who doesn’t believe you.
Hey pay attention! When did I say it would be an easy google search? And where did I say there was a clear photo of a B757? I just told you to get off your butt and find the Pentagon camera footage yourself and you did.
Nothing is going to make you change your mind. Your claim that the 757 may have been forced down and the people on it murdered and how an aircraft flying below 50 feet would be labeled a UFO shows me you are going to great lengths to make stuff up to fit your theory.
suflanker45I don’t have to prove a thing. I’m in the majority about what happened on 9/11. You’re the one that has to prove your alternate theory and its incomplete. I never was trying to get you to change your mind about what happened in 9/11. I just wanted you to back up your bullsh!t and you can’t.
suflanker45Honestly, I got no idea. Shot down over Atlantic? Landed somewhere, passengers killed and the aircraft taken apart? I cannot support any version..
I suggest we forget about the whole case for a moment and only concentrate on the video itself. No 9/11, no bin Laden, no government conspiracies, just this video footage.
YOU DON’T KNOW!!!?????:eek: 😮 😮 😮 😮 But you’re flex! The all knowing and all seeing shizzdiggty! You have thought out everything else. Bullying witnesses, completely ignoring other evidence that doesn’t fit your pipe dream and just making stuff up but you can’t explain the biggest hole in your lame theory.:rolleyes:
No we can’t forget the whole case and focus on one item because there are many items. You can’t just pick this or that and discard everything else because it doesn’t fit your preconceived notions which is what your are doing.
You have proved nothing except that you have a vivid imagination.
suflanker45But flexylexy you found the video camera footage yourself and of course you didn’t believe it. You can safely hide behind your dementia because its not clear (because its traveling at over 400mph) You claim the witnesses were tortured to say that they saw it hit the building. Then you ignore the cell phone calls the street lights. Claim the human remains recovered are not from the 757 and you expect me to believe that you will just do a 180 to if you see a clear photo of a 757 hitting the Pentagon.:rolleyes:
By the way I said that there was Pentagon security camera footage showing the impact. I never said there was a clear photo of the impact.
Ok let’s try this again. American Airlines Flight 77 took off from Dulles Airport that morning. It never made it to its destination on the US West Coast. Now if according to your dementia a missle hit the Pentagon then what happened to American Airlines 77 and the people onboard?
suflanker45I will find you five witnesses that a guy that looked exactly like you attempted to rape my neighbour yesterday. :rolleyes:
You don’t need to show me wittnesses to explain away, official or semiofficial reports written by Mr.Whoever to read thru.. This all is garbage, all people can be threatened, bought, bribed or blackmailed, you can never be sure. People will kill for three thousand dollars, for how many do you think will they wittness some bullsh!t? If you push hard enough, they will wittness you they have seen little green men, UFOs crashing into Eiffel Tower, sferrin sucking blood from a cow, whatever..
One single pictorial proof and I will rest the case completely. Yes, exactly the one that is, according to your own post, to be found on freaking google under Pentagon and 9/11. So, will you please be so kind as to prove you can do more than just sh!t into your mouth, locate it and post it here? Many thanks in advance
You won’t rest your case. You’ll just say the photo was PSed.:diablo: You have your worthless little pipe dream theory and nothing is going to change your mind. Because after all you are the shizzz.:rolleyes:
Since you can’t back up your sh!t you have to resort to personal attacks. Like that’s gonna convince me your not full of it.:rolleyes:
Apparently you think the US is some kind of facist police state with your bullying witness comment. Sorry dude but not true considering we have a media here that just loves to print everything leaked out of the State Department, the Defense Department and the CIA. Plus the ACLU wants to give the scumbags in Gitmo prisoners’ rights.
Just wondering is anyone getting a chuckle about our clever banter?:D
suflanker45And the witnesses who saw the plane crash? How do you explain them away? Or are you just going to stick your head up your butt and say they don’t exist either?:diablo:
suflanker45Can’t explain it away can you?:diablo:
suflanker45“Show me the 757” is your best response?:rolleyes:
Looks like I punched a big hole in your worthless theory.:diablo:
You can’t explain away the many witnesses who saw the plane hit the Pentagon. Some of whom saw it flying so low (about 20 feet)that it knocked over several lamp posts on Washington Boulevard.
You can’t explain away the two cell phone calls that came from Flight 77 that reported the hijacking.
You can’t explain away a daily scheduled commerical flight that departed Dulles that day that the airport authority, the FAA and American Airlines can all verify with radio, visual, radar and computer records.
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