So how many PAK-FA/T-50/Su-57s are in service now? Based on the delivery dates, I’m seeing this:
2019: 1 aircraft, but crashed and destroyed in December
2020: 1 aircraft
2021: 3 aircraft
2022: 4 aircraft
2023: 8 aircraft
This means that 17 operational aircraft were built, but one crashed and destroyed so 16 aircraft are delivered and operational so far?
Are there any sources available for this claim? It sounds decidedly weird to me that a plane with MTOW of 38 tons cannot take-off with the full internal fuel @ <30 tons, but who knows…
You’ll have to ask [USER=”1724″]djcross[/USER], he first mentioned this.
While I very much agree that national defence goes a bit further than a pure **** measuring contest, in the end the required capabilities of a new weapons systems are determined by the level of the threat. F-15 as a response to MiG-25, Su-27 as a response to F-15 and so on until PAK-FA. It is simply unavoidable for the VKS to look at what US (F-22) can do in order to counter it. In order to get favourable match statistics, they need to avoid weak spots in each and every one of the aspects. You can reflect on the program and the plane’s features to see this holds true for almost all thinkable parameters, because relying on tactics or supporting assets instead of the individual system’s capability is not a very robust way of planing force. In terms of cruising speed as said it is not only F-22 that should be of concern, but the newer platforms propelled by adaptive engines, which will be in the best conditions for a very effective supercruise.
“Countering” something doesn’t involve matching every performance number. Su-27 was made in response to F-15 but has lower top speed and doesn’t out turn F-15 in every part of the envelope.
> Why F-22’s cruise speed matters? Because it allows to reduce engagement chances for the enemy and increases the effectiveness of the own missiles and in general, an advantage to control the engagements. Do we agree on this or am I missing something important? Why is supercruise a crucial requirement of 5G?
I’m talking about why it would matter to RuAF if F-22 can reach Mach 1.8 without afterburner? Just because it can do that doesn’t mean Mach 1.8 is the normal supercruise speed, which is why that performance number doesn’t really matter. Developing a response is not about matching or beating every performance number at every condition.
> Design speed of the F-22: you say that the series design was modified in order to get better area ruling than the YF-22, if I got it right. Was this done to get better fuel consumption and the increase in cruising speed was circumstantial? Little probable, since you claim the redesign reduced the fuel capacity…
I think it’s circumstantial but I don’t recall the exact reason. Production F-22 does carry less fuel than YF-22, since the prototype carried 1.5 tons more fuel.
In any case it is obvious that if cruising fast is good, the faster you can do it the better, and the more future-proof your design will be. This means increased TSFC of course, but that makes part of the deal once you go for supersonic cruising. A F-22 deployed for CAP in ME for example is not compelled to cruise at 1.8 M, facing peer-level aircraft/SAMs in a high intensity conflict it would be different I am sure!
Reaching Mach 1.8 without afterburners is not future-proofing anything, again that’s NOT the F-22’s optimal design speed, that’s just when max dry thrust and drag are at equilibrium and max dry thrust is not considered cruising. F-22 was NOT specifically designed for Mach 1.8 at max dry thrust, it was designed for most efficient supercruise at Mach 1.5 and the other speed performance numbers are just the result of that. Besides, when defending against SAMs the difference between Mach 1.5 and 1.8 is not going to make much difference, instead of other factors like stealth, weapons, etc.
Thanks for your take on that. I am not implying it will make much of a difference, but probably coming later VKS prefers being a bit in front than a bit behind. The design reserve re. F-22 (in terms of wing sweep, intake size / design) points to them not willing to fall short of further US developments.
Wing sweep is not just driven by speed. Higher wing sweep provides larger mean aerodynamic chord in order to tolerate bigger shifts in CG, especially since Su-57 main weapon bays are tandem. As another example, MiG-31 wing sweep is 41 degrees compare to F-15 sweep of 45 degrees and F-22 sweep of 42 degrees yet MiG-31 is faster than both.
This is done when you are late with your engine, which has been the case with a number of Russian and Soviet programs. With the MFI they invested heavily and early in order to avoid that, but then the program failed and they saw themselves in the same difficult situation again with the PAK-FA. It is IMHO not a desired or reasonable practice, because it creates unnecessary expenses and efforts (for instance by creating production lines twice, which is extremely costly). Only in this case I think the 117 will be used in the Flanker fleet, by which they minimize the downsides of this approach.
First stage and second stage engines was planned for PAK-FA pretty much from start of the program. We’ll see if this was the right choice to make. Failure of MFI program was because of the change in air combat tactics that puts much more emphasis on stealth than what was required for MFI, and also the chronic lack of funding in the 1990s which doomed MFI and izd.20. Also izd.20 is a much bigger engine than izd.30 which is supposed to be same size as izd.117.
In US fighter programs starting with ATF the engine development occurs even before the aircraft development. This is the case for adaptive engines right now too.
Do you have sources for the claim in bold letters? While the reduced number of stages is coherent with claimed easier maintenance, the engines of the Al-31F family are among the ones with better fuel economy. Izd. 117 has essentially state of the art combustion, they would not get a serious improvement in TSFC unless they reduce the BPR, and that makes little sense if you want to produce a high specific thrust engine. Also the maintenance of the 117S is much better than old Al31F with 4,000 h operative life, I don’t have the data for the 117 but considering it is the premium, non-export version of the 117S, I would assume it is not worse in that parameter either. Furthermore, Marchukov said izd. 30 keeps the TSFC of the AL-31F, so no apparent improvements are to be expected there. The achievement is to have the specific thrust of a turbojet and the TSFC of a relatively high BPR turbofan.
It may be from Piotr Butowski article, I’ll try to find where I read it. But I know one of the goals is for izd.30 to be cheaper to buy and run.
The tank capacity shown in the picture by paralay shows a total 13,029 l internal fuel, which taking 0.8 kg/l for JP-8 (I got density values between 0.775 and 0.840) results in 10.423 kg, 2.2 tons more than the supposed internal fuel of the plane (8,200 kg), makes that sense to you?
From what djcross said the 8,200 kg fuel commonly stated may be weight limit for runway operations and it can carry more when refueled from the air.
You may be right, maybe the Su-57 has a better aero than thought and reaches more than M 1.3 with current engines, if you check I assumed up to M 1.5 in my first post. But my idea is not to produce accurate quantitative values, because that would be absurd given I am no expert and don’t have the necessary data. I am only meeting the dots between what makes sense from a program point of view and what known evidence and official claims support, to reach a qualitative estimation. That would be: supercruising available with current engine but with speed values well below those of F-22, with second stage engine cruising speed equal or bigger than that of F-22 and actually the real possibility of it being close to 2 M, given the number of aspects in which the Su-57 /izd. 30 design offer advantages vs. F-22/F119.
Aircraft design is not contest to see which has better numbers. They’re designing aircraft to meet their requirements, not to match or exceed another aircraft number for number. So what if F-22 can reach that speed without afterburner? Why does that matter, and would simply getting that “supercruise” speed even relevant? Besides, just because F-22 can go that fast without afterburner doesn’t mean that’s the normal supercruise speed since that’s not the design speed and its very inefficient there even without afterburner. Even F-22 max speed is probably below F-15, but it doesn’t matter for the F-22 either.
Going to your data and trying to understand your view:
– How did serial F-22 managed to reach cruising speed of M 1.8, given the values you refer for YF-22? Engines were improved massively or drag reduced also massively?
– What is your expectation regarding cruising design speed of a mature Su-57, considering the data already provided by Marchukov?
– How do you make sense out of the fact that Russia decides to produce a new engine, while still developing the 117, in a sequence that does not even allow it to pay-off? My take is that the 117 is the B-plan or risk reduction measure for the program, that will flow into the Flankers in the future, and which covers the eventual failure of the izd. 30 to deliver. But Russian sources are quite consistent considering that supercruise is a crucial requirement of the 5G planes and identifying that with variable cycle, so I assume that from the beginning the idea was to have an engine pretty much like the izd. 20 but in the appropriate size and with modern technology, which is my understanding of the izd. 30 in few words.
Again just because F-22 can reach Mach 1.8 without afterburners doesn’t mean it’s cruising there. But max supercruise speed is better than YF-22 because the production F-22 has better area ruling, especially in the rear fuselage where it’s much slimmer than YF-22, so better area ruling. For “mature” Su-57 the supercruise speed is probably similar to F-22, probably not much difference to really matter. Also Marchukov didn’t provide “data”, just some general statements that you can’t really make conclusions on specific performance numbers on.
The plan of PAK-FA program was always planned to have a Stage 1 and Stage 2 engine, with izd.117 being Stage 1. That is just how Russia (and Soviet Union) did fighter development. For example first Su-27 prototypes used AL-21 instead of the AL-31 for production aircraft. Supercruise is a critical requirement of PAK-FA, but they’re not going to define it in terms of F-22 supercruise speed, they’ll define it on what they need. And even for development of ATF the requirement was never Mach 1.8 supercruise speed, it was always Mach 1.5. In fact I would say if F-22 supercruise speed was reduced to Mach 1.5, but it got better range, it would have been better aircraft.
Even bypass ratio isn’t not always best indicator for “supercruise” speed. For example, F-16C with F110-GE-129 is a bit faster in mil than with F100-PW-229, even though PW-229 has much lower bypass ratio.
There is probably an error in the tank capacities in that chart since it shows more total fuel than what can actually be carried. But general layout is correct and it shows the two fuel tanks in rear fuselage.
If it was not because izd. 30 brings much better cruising speed, why would they bother designing it, so close after having done the izd. 117 with a max thrust almost in the level of the F119?
One of the stated goals of izd.30 is lower maintenance and operating cost. Especially since izd.117 is considered not economical to run. More power is not the only goal of izd.30, higher MTBO and better operating economy are major goals.
I will check that, thanks
Here is diagram of F-22 fuel tanks, you can see the two rear tanks by the engine bays.
https://www.nap.edu/books/0309053331/gifmid/62.gif
Wow XB-70’s Cd is ridiculous… I have seen other drawings with much steeper reductions of Cd as speed increases, it depends on the design and I cannot make statements about how it behaves in the Su-57. Keep in mind the trimming options they have with the TVC and LEVCONS to reduce drag in supersonic flight too, everything in the design has been conditioned by this flight regime. Of course, I am aware that drag increases non linearly with speed, but the fact that F-22 can cruise so fast with an engine size and cross sectional area very close to Su-57 despite allegedly not being as aerodynamic as the YF-23 supports that a cruising speed in that ballpark for the Su-57 is perfectly possible, besides being a logical design goal both for the plane and for the second stage engine, designed as said above immediately after the 117 was developed and hence still up to date. As argued other evidence suggest that the installed thrust of the 30 is equal or bigger than F119, maybe the radar blockers being the only negative issue I can think of.
The much steeper reduction in drag coefficient when Mach increases is for only individual components like the wing or a generic object. When you have a whole aircraft the total supersonic parasite drag buildup will include things like shockwave interference and total area rule and volume distribution. So even with a dedicated interceptor like F-106 where drag reduction was emphasized over pretty much everything else you don’t see that steep kind of drag coefficient reduction of just a component.
XB-70 drag coefficient is low because wing is huge (drag force is drag coefficient times dynamic pressure times wing area), and also that aircraft is optimized to the extreme for supersonic flight. Also small wings is why F-104 drag coefficient is so high even though actual drag is actually very low.
Why twice the dynamic thrust of izd. 117? I simply assume it will be equal or better than F119’s, that has as said 25-35% more uninstalled mil thrust, mainly due to lower BPR. A change in BPR between izd. 117 and 30 would get most of the work done, I assume.
Re. the different thrust profiles w/ and w/o AB, I am aware the comparison is decidedly rough but still applicable. Do you have some data to help refining it?
~35% increase in thrust will get you from Mach 1.3 to Mach 1.6-1.7 at best. For example YF-22 supercruise speed is Mach 1.43 with YF119 and Mach 1.58 with YF120 which is 20% more powerful because of the YF119 didn’t have the bigger fan for increase mass flow of production F119, while YF120 did.
Since it lacks the small pitot tubes on the side of the fuselage this might not be a flying airframe but just for demo or test purpose.
That is why the layout of the PAK-FA is so special. They managed big bays but placed them one after the other along the longitudinal axis of the plane and in the shadow of the unavoidable, drag-generating nose & cockpit sections, so pretty much got that volume for free. Fuel capacity is granted by the extremely developed blended wing-body design. The rear fuselage usually holds not much fuel in almost any plane, with maybe the F-35 holding a bit more than normal. The problem with the fuel in the F-22 is that it has a very short middle fuselage section, together with volume-eating S-shaped air ducts and outright huge side weapon bays. Together with the low BPR engines, this creates a certain lack of range which poses a challenge if the plane has to operate in a contested airspace of a certain depth, a good reason why PCA is being fast tracked instead of modernizing the 22.
F-22 does have two major fuel tanks in rear fuselage by engine bays where it is much slimmer compared to YF-22 prototype.
First of all, I don’t have any proof and also have not made numbers, good or bad about that speed. But I think others would go along that figure of M1.3 for izd. 117 so I will follow your reasoning.
The drag question: what you say is true but not all the truth, since Cd changes with the speed and decreases notably, well beyond the transonic region. This change depends on the particular design, and judging by the wing sweep for instance, supersonic performance was a big issue for the Su-57, as the patent also confirms. Area rule is very apparent too.
When you get out of transsonic and into supersonic at Mach 1.2 or more drag coefficient does not decrease that much.

Look at even some of the most area ruled aircraft ever made like RA5C and XB-70, these have much better fineness ratio than any 5G fighter.
The issue with izd. 30 and izd. 117 is that the first is not a further evolution of the later or even keeping the same layout, so you cannot estimate its thrust as a pure linear progression from the older model. Not only has it a very much reduced number of stages but most crucially it has been designed specifically for supercruise. This is proven not only by the many times this requirement is argued by officials and designers as the justification for spending even more money after the already modern izd. 117 was completed and tested, but the words of its lead designer confirm the crucial parameter of such an engine, specific thrust, to be the highest available in any engine of that category. So either they have way higher temps and compression than the F119 (improbable) or they have lower BPR.
Think of it this way: what mil thrust does F-22 need to fly 1.82 M? 11-12 tf/engine, to account for detuned specs. Izd 117S, which is a bit worse than 117 but of the same design, 8.8 tf. That is a massive 25% – 35% difference. That level of thrust is similar to what an engine of the F100-AL-31F generation needed to propel 4G jets beyond 2 M. Intakes in the Su-57 are simply huge with the best pressure recovery due to adjustable ramps and relatively straight air ducts, and besides the ram compression will keep adding thrust to the engines as the speed increases. So not so crazy IMHO to think that a carefully designed fighter whose cross-sectional area is not bigger than that of a Flanker can get to that speed with engines capable of 12 or more Tf. The exact number will maybe never known but this estimation makes reasonably good sense to me…
Obviously dynamic thrust is harder to estimate but assuming izd.30 can get twice the dynamic thrust of izd.117, which was already much more optimized for supercruise compare to base AL-31F is questionable. You can’t directly compare afterburning thrust of F100 to military thrust of F119, their dynamic thrust profile will be different since afterburner increases exhaust temperature behind the turbine where the combustion gasses already went through some expansion.
It is unclear if they refer to Su-57 with current engines or not…
In any case it is not the same to “supercruise” at 1.8 or 2 M than barely maintaining M > 1 for some minutes. The first has a clear tactical value, the later, not really. We don’t know what the izd. 117 allows to do. The designers said that it fulfilled the MoD requirements, but clearly an engine as izd. 30 (designed for supercruise) should improve over that by a big margin, so what were the original requirements? Was there a “nice to have” requirement that latter evolved into a “must”, as the progress with the design of the izd. 30 allowed for more ambitious goals? IMHO and all that being considered, the Su-57 with the current engine maybe cruises at 1.2 – 1.3 M, maybe 1.5 M being very optimistic, with the second stage engines should be close to 2 M.
If izd.117 allows supercruise of Mach 1.3, then it’s VERY unrealistic for izd.30 to give Mach 2 supercruise because once you’re out of transsonic and in supersonic, drag is pretty much increases with square of speed, so Mach 2 drag is 78% higher than Mach 1.5 and 136% higher than at Mach 1.3. So while izd.30 will definitely be big improvement over izd.117, it won’t be THAT big.
I tend to agree and would stretch those figures even a bit further. Latest data I saw which seemed half reliable (a supposed expert whose article I need to dig up) indicated cruise speed 2 M, max speed 2.45 M (2600 km/h). Few months before I would have thought this to be far fetched, now after reading Marchukov and the patent I tend to think it is actually realistic:
– No reason for 15 years of delay to create a weapon against F-22 which is clearly inferior from the beginning. F-22 can supposedly cruise at 1.82 M, max speed is 2.25 M IIRC
– Izd. 30 is stated as being the engine with highest specific thrust in its category available anywhere.
– Supercruising performance is one of the main design focus of the plane, as stated in the patent and obvious from many design traits.
– It makes no sense to incur the effort and expense of designing a variable intake which is only better above 2 M (as stated in the very patent) if your maximum speed is not substantially higher than that.
– F-15 is still very much in service and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future. Its max. speed is 2.5 M, so it makes sense for Su-57 to be at that level too, in order to dominate the engagements with superior range and markedly better cruising speed / acceleration.USAF’s best chance IMO is to bring AETP engines to the F-22/ F-15 / F-35 fleet, in order to counter the more than probable advantage in kinematics of the Su-57.
Only reference to “Mach 2” supercruise has been hearsay from “radioscanners” that Berkut (who got banned here for some reason) states to be false. I’ve asked on Secret Projects and both flateric and Berkut (he’s called Flanker on Secret Projects) reject it. Besides, flateric points out the ORIGINAL max speed requirement was Mach 2.35, and in 2006 that was actually reduced a bit because of structures and materials. Also I don’t think there would be dedicated PAK-DP program if PAK-FA is meant to have Mach 2 supercruise.
Though in all honesty the king of speed for fighters would probably have been F-23, that has better area ruling than any fighter, but it didn’t get chosen.
Also, AETP is meant to improve acceleration and fuel efficiency in F-22 and F-35, not speed. In fact if you see F-35 flight envelope you see that the flight performance just cuts off at Mach 1.6 instead of having a curve that stops at Mach 1.6. This means F-35 is not limited to Mach 1.6 by drag, but it’s an “imposed” limit, so even with more powerful engine the max speed is not going to change.
https://i.imgur.com/mhUOqyV.png
No weight for this envelope was given, so we don’t know what load it is.
Also, the F-22 numbers seem a bit inaccurate in this sheet.
http://paralay.world/paralay_tab.xls
Supercruise is at least Mach 1.78 according to LM.
https://aviationweek.com/awin/f-22-design-shows-more-expected
Most publications such as AFM and Air International puts it at Mach 1.82 and general consensus is Mach 1.8. But F-22 makes some pretty big sacrifices to supercruise at this speed, such as quite low bypass engines that are pretty thirsty, and also very tapered rear fuselage which reduce wave drag but also reduces quite a bit of fuel volume, so range is not great. Also weapon bay is quite shallow.
You would need a few things:
1. Internal Battery to ignite motor
2. Folding Lugs
3. Wiring & connector
4. A channel for 2&3 that does not impose too much drag.
That doesn’t seem too hard to achieve. If existing AIM-9X doesn’t have enough space, just go with a slightly bigger diameter or something like ASRAAM.
No internal SRAAM seems like an unnecessary compromise.
Why isn’t an ejector launched version of AIM-9X being developed? I know canted pylon is supposed to reduce RCS increase but it’s still not optimal especially at lower frequencies and AIM-9X has no LO shaping. If they get ejector launched AIM-9X, then you’ll have 4 AIM-120 and 2 AIM-9 internally. What’s the hold up?
Do any of you muricans realize that ANY F-teen are considered as fresh meat by ANY eurocanards (not to talk as the not so awesome F-22)
Really??? :rolleyes:
Did halloweene just criticize the LRASM as slow? Then what’s the Storm Shadow then?
https://sputniknews.com/russia/20170…lane-computer/
” [LEFT]“Each such plane becomes a computer center which is able to decide exactly what type of arms and ammo it needs for a specific combat mission. In the UAV mode, the plane can reach its target much faster with overloads of up to 15 G, while the maximum overload a pilot can endure does not exceed 10 G,” said Viktor Pryadka, the CEO of the Avintel Aviation Technologies Alliance.”
If you accuse sputnik or wiki as being bad sources there are some good references sources can contain like as statement coming directly from a CEO. Just dont be that guy that laughs or gets mad at a source he does not like without giving a good explanation which of course you did now so thanks.
Would this Viktor Pryadka person even be someone who know the design G for Su-57? Did he specifically refer to Su-57, or was the connection done by the article? We had the same problem with people assuming that izd.30 will be variable cycle. As far as we know, no T-50 has flown unmanned (“UAV mode”), and the structure had to be redesigned because it had cracking issues even with 9g, so now it somehow is designed to pull 15g?
This claim of 15g makes no sense. Sure a UAV can do it, but Su-57 is not a UAV, and with all the weight penalties of reinforcing the structure to handle that many G is not worth it.
Probably the range of frequence used by the F-35 and the same decision of using IR depend exactly by the fact they want a picture-like image something that actually just IR can afford.
Otrer modern US and Nato planes, beginning by F-22 have UV Maws also, so let’s avoid of making it an Us vs You fanboy thing, ok?
Wrong. F-22 MAWS is IR, which is why for future upgrade they plan to add IRST function. US MAWS for helicopters and low flying aircraft are UV. Earlier US fighters (or any Cold War fighters) don’t have MAWS. Typhoon MAWS is radar based.