…
An interesting point is that, the AL31 (If I remember correctly) had to be specially modified in order to fit in the J10, this suggests that the J10 was thus not desighned for the AL31, but rather an existing indigenous desighn-WS10A?
Also remember that when J10 development began china and the soviet union were not exactly good friends, thus the chances of china recieving thier latest engine technology during that era are slim to say the least.
Knowone deighns a plane without an engine.
…I
Yes, the J10A initially was designed to accommodate the indigenous WS10, however, due to serious development problems, it seemed the Engine was delayed, so the CAC had to modify the J10 body to accommodate the Russian AL31, In their turn, Russians also modified the AF31 design to suit small airframe of J10.
However, the adoption of the Russian Engine now seems the grave mishap of the J10’s fate in later selection for PLA’s main fighter jets. Now with higher cost of adopting foreign engine and service and reduced number of planes entering service, the unit cost of J10 now on par with more powerful J11B which got almost all indigenous contents such as avionics and power. The outcome is obvious, when a F15 and a F16 at the same price for you to choose, which 1 will you pick?! The lesson for the CAC? Don’t trust too much on the so-called brotherhood of the another associated company say SAC. When the moment of “either u or me” comes, it still plays by the market rules.
All the Technology contents lie in the parts for assembling the Engine, Design work is carried out by the licencer.
Even aproduct as low technology content as shoes can say thing: China manufactures 90% of Nike shoes, however, the bulk of money is only earned by the US HQ company while China is still risk of trade saction by those western countries because of exporting all those shoes.
So no need mention high-tech products like Turbofan engines
Nobody will sell the hen if he intends to sell the eggs to the customers…
i want to know more about this. Could you(or anyone) give me a list of major tecnologies/designs that china obtained/stole from the West in the 80’s ?
Got this extracted from the long article as shown below
US National security And P.R.China
In 1983, the PRC legally acquired two General Electric CFM-56 jet engines, ostensibly to analyze the engines for a potential civil aircraft upgrade program. In the course of the export licensing process, the Defense Department insisted on restricting the PRC’s use of the engines. Under the terms of the licensing agreement:
No technical data was to be transferred with the engines; the Chinese were not to disassemble the engines; and finally, if the Trident [civil aircraft] retrofit program had not begun within 1 year of the engines’ arrival, the engines were to be repurchased by the manufacturer. In addition, the Chinese offered to retrofit engines at a Shanghai commercial aircraft facility where GE personnel would be able to monitor Chinese progress.87
Defense Department officials were concerned because the CFM-56 hot sections are identical to those used in the engines that power the U.S. F-16 and B-1B military aircraft.88
The PRC later claimed that the CFM-56 engines were destroyed in a fire.89 More likely, however, is that the PRC violated the U.S. end-use conditions by reverse engineering part of the CFM-56 to develop a variant for use in combat aircraft.90
Despite the suspected reverse engineering of the two General Electric jet engines that were exported in 1983, G.E. reportedly signed a contract in March 1991 with the Shenyang Aero-Engine Corporation for the manufacture of parts for CFM-56 engines.91 According to one source, Shenyang “put in place quality and advanced manufacturing systems to meet US airworthiness standards.” 92
The PRC aggressively attempted to illegally acquire General Electric’s F404 engine, which powers the U.S. F-18 fighter.93 The PRC likely intended to use the F404 jet engine in its F-8 fighter.94 The PRC succeeded in acquiring some F404 technology through an indirect route by purchasing the LM-2500, a commercial General Electric gas turbine containing the F404 hot section.95
In addition, G.E. has reportedly proposed a joint venture with the PRC to manufacture the so-called CFM-56-Lite. The engine could power the PRC’s planned AE-100 transport.96
The PRC also has targeted large engines for aerospace and non-aerospace applications. The PRC’s acquisition plans reportedly include Pratt & Whitney JT-8 series engines and technology to support its large aircraft projects, as well as marine derivatives of the G.E. LM-2500 for naval turbine propulsion projects.97 Regarding the JT-8 series:
In August 1986, CATIC licensed the technology for the U.S. Pratt and Whitney FT8 gas turbine engine, including joint development, production and international marketing rights. The FT8 is a development of the JT8D-219 aero-engine (used to power Boeing 727, Boeing 737, and MD-82 aircraft), and can produce 24,000 kW (33,000 hp). [It] represented another significant technical leap for China’s gas turbine capability . . . Chinese students were also sponsored by Pratt and Whitney for graduate level aerospace training in the United States.98
and every now and then i hear about some thrust vectoring for the WS-10 …how true is this ??
There’s only a photo of Former President JZM inspecting the nozzle, no further info
The AL-31FN engine concern for the J-10 may only be temporary. The Russians may have wanted to insist on a full 250 to 300 engine buy, while the Chinese may have wanted to buy about 50 engines per year. The reason why China wants to do small orders only and do not want to commmit to a full long term order is that China may not want to end up holding too much of something when the domestic alternative comes on line. What happens if China is holding over 200 AL-31FN engines in stock when the WS-10A for the J-10 becomes available?
A mere coincide? Remeber the story that SAC stopped assembling the Su-27SK after only finished half of scheduled 200 sets? So if we added the figure of cancelled Al31 for Su27SK which stands at 2X100=200, then add the 100 AL31FN figure which Chengdu CAC committed to. the total will be 200+100=300 that Russian insists on, the mode is like since u cancel there, I have to compensate here. However it seems PLA only commits 100 units for 2 years. since we don’t know the detail of such contract, who knows the PLA will play the Termination of Su27SK Assembly game again or not when WS10A is ready for J10 and just stop further import of AL31FN.
I heard the newer model of J10 with local made engine will appear in 2009, considering the AF31FN deal, it also fits the time table: say the massive production of J10A begins 2006(When I believe the 2nd line will be ready), the 2 year supply of AL31FN ends in 2006+2=2008. and in 2009, shifts to new model. BTW, I don’t believe the thinking that the WS10A can directly replace the AL31Fn without frame modification. Once the frame is modified and possibly the J10 will be assigned a new code like J10C or so.
This may further confirmed the saying that J11B is on course to use WS10A because Russians now apparantly shift their focus to CAC for sales.
With regards to the J-11B, I heard it uses a variation of the J-10’s flight control system, radar and avionics. it seems that these areas of the J-10 appears okay at least for Shenyang to try to use them for its own plane. I agree with Overscan’s observation that the J-11A still uses the old RWR. If J-11B would use the J-10’s RWR, it would probably have the same oval blister we see on the side of the J-10 near the canopy. The blister would be somewhere in the J-11’s body, possibly near the air intakes. This would give us a strong visual clue in identifying this plane instead of waiting for it to show with PL-8s or PL-12s. That is, unless the designers choose to retain the old same antenna.
Yes, the J10 project itself is a big testbed, many technologies therefore developed are re-plant to other platforms. So it’s not regrettable to PLA to sideline J10. because many of them now re-appear in SAC J11B. But ridiculous enough, the J10 supposed to be a home grown fighter Jet now contains more foreign content ( the Heart: AL31FN) than the supposed to be foreign content driven product J11B ( evolved from Su27SK ).
Will there be an engine order for the J-11? That’s the next important question since it has many implications. But currently it seems China has chosen to build more J-10s over J-11s, but we have to wait and see if the new support agreement would also lead the way to China ordering a new batch of engines for the J-11 or a new batch of fully built Sukhoi fighters like Su-30s.
I won’t agree too much on more J10 will be built over J11.
China chooses the imported Engine for J10 over home made FWS10A for J11 indicates PLA makes the finally decision sidelining J10, this may echo Rick’s point, however, I won’t say the J10 is dying, it’s only will be sidelined.
If we take into account 3 news appeared at almost same time, then we may balance out my view.
1st , China imports 100 Al31FN or so for J10,
2nd, China finally moves on to produce FWS10A
3rd, Shenyan SAC reveals a new model of Fighter jet, widely believed to be J11B
The FWS10a was tested on a J11 twin engine testbed, the PLA is cautious for just moving the new engine to a single engine powered J10A
The plant manufacturing FWS10A is linked to SAC, and its limited initial production is not satisfied to supply both SAC twin engine powerd J11B and CAC’s J10. After much frustrated debate, the Chengdu CAC apparently stuck to mature AL31FN supply. There are still competitive relation between CAC and SAC.
Just as a hedge step, PLAAF is still suspicious about the new engine of FWS10a, scare of what happened to the American F100 engine at initial stage. So, import a proven engine like AL31 is a double insurance. This arrangement just like PLAN building 052C while still imports Rif-M system.
Based on above judgement, so, I won’t see any future massive import of AL31 for the J11B, If such does happened, then it’s really a big blow to the China’s aviation industrial.
YJ-83…..(Think its the same missile)…..
Then, how about this one? 😉
Is this reported BVR AAM PL-12?
Missile advance
http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/inring.htm
Pentagon officials tell us China’s recent flight test of a new 6,000-mile-range JL-2 submarine-launched ballistic missile earlier this month was not the only recent troubling development in Beijing’s military buildup.
About the same time as the JL-2 test, China also test-fired a new long-range air-to-air missile.
“The missile has over-the-horizon capability, something they have not had before,” said one official familiar with the test.
Defense analysts believe the missile, which was not identified by type, could be one of China’s new PL-12 air-to-air missiles, an indigenous missile that has beyond-visual-range radar guidance and targeting.
Air Force Gen. Paul V. Hester, commander of Pacific Air Forces, said in a recent meeting with reporters that China’s fighter modernization is being watched closely and warned against underestimating Chinese military air power, as occurred with Soviet warplanes during the Cold War.
“They have great equipment. The fighters are very technologically advanced, and what we know about them gives us pause or concern against ours,” he said.
How about this 1: The JL-2 SLBM just launched from a PLAN SSBN on 16.6.2005.
China test-fires new submarine-launched missile
http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/news/world/11923372.htm
Wow, While the IAF may be spoilt by choices, the local arm industry would suffer another headache.
052/051 should be in DDG category instead of FFG,
According to Kanwa, 093 SSN at least 2 are in water while the 3rd is in building.
According to various source, the 094 SSBN entered the sea trial last July, however it’s not clear whether the 6.16.2005 launched JL2 SLCM is from this platform or not, although many sources implied that. Let’s assure the 094 sea trial lasted for almost 1 year, so it’s possible for PLA to test fire a new ICBM at this stage from this submarine. The various reports only confirm the JL-2 was launched from a nuclear powered submarine, then it only left 2 options: either it fired from the 094 or 092. If it’s fired from aged 092, then it shows the 092 did modified in 2002 to accommodate the large JL-2 ,
I think there r a number of mistakes in the Taipei Times report, for example: “Weng said China probably would deploy the Ju Lang-2, which carries nuclear warheads, on its Han-class nuclear submarines”, Han Class is Type 091 an aged SSN.
Here’s another more moderate report from Japan source:
China test-fires new submarine-launched missile
http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/news/world/11923372.htm
The Yomiuri Shimbun
TOKYO – (KRT) – China test-fired a new long-range, submarine-launched ballistic missile Thursday, Japanese government sources said Friday.
The new missile is believed to be the Ju Lang-2, a modified version of the intercontinental ballistic missile Dong Feng-31 that has a range of about 8,000 kilometers.
The new SLBM was believed to be fired from a nuclear submarine in waters off Qingdao and touched down in a desert in China several thousand kilometers away.
It has been confirmed that China test-fired an SLBM in 2001.
China is believed to possess about 30 ICBMs and has been conducting research on multiple-warhead missiles to counter the U.S. missile defense system.
China also has been more active recently in its naval operations. In November, a Han-class nuclear submarine cruised around Guam and entered Japan’s territorial waters. If China develops SLBMs further, the entire mainland of the United States would come within range of the missiles.
Observers said the latest test-firing apparently was aimed at warning Washington not to interfere in the event of military conflict between China and Taiwan in the Taiwan Strait.
The United States believes China is ready to deploy the Dong Feng-31 and has estimated that Beijing will have 100 warheads targeting the United States by 2015.
U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld expressed strong concern over China’s development of ICBMs in a speech in Singapore on June 4, saying China appeared to be improving its missiles targeting the Asia-Pacific region and also was expanding its missile capability to reach any target in the world.
—
© 2005, The Yomiuri Shimbun.
New PLA missile `a warning’ for the US, experts say
http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2005/06/19/2003259858
China’s newly-developed submarine-launched Ju Lang-2 missile serves as a warning to the US not to underestimate Beijing’s military power, Taiwanese military experts said yesterday.
“The Ju Lang-2 poses a great threat to the US because it has better precision and guidance and is harder to detect,” said Weng Ming-hsien (翁明賢), a professor from the Institute of Strategic Studies at the Tamkang University.
“China wants to tell the US that it has never stopped developing nuclear arms. China also wants to warn Russia not to get too close to the US,” he said.
Weng said China probably would deploy the Ju Lang-2, which carries nuclear warheads, on its Han-class nuclear submarines.
Lee Shih-ping, a military expert specializing in warplanes and warships, said Ju Lang-2 posed a new security threat to the US because it could be fired from the sea and reach the US interior.
“China now has a platform to carry and fire nuclear arms. It now ranks along with Britain, France, Russia and the US as the countries which have nuclear capability. Ju Lang-2 is a more lethal weapon and it is a weapon for invasion,” he said.
Both Weng and Li said that the test-firing of Ju Lang-2 on July 16 last year was a warning for the US not to meddle in China’s affairs, especially the Taiwan issue.
The Japanese government said Friday that China on Thursday had test-fired the Ju Lang-2 missile, a modified version of China’s Dongfeng-31 intercontinental ballistic missile.
Ju Lang-2 was believed to have been fired from a nuclear sub in waters off Qingdao, landing in a desert in China several thousand kilometers away.
Wow, bigger and clearer picture, Is this J10 really as the caption suggested, belongs to PLAAF 7th Div stationed in Northwest Shanxi Province? See, what missile under its left wing.

that’s good, then finally we got a pic of J10 in this angle for comparison with LAVI:
