fabeThanks Baphomet, I always like your photo updates on the FAV alias AMV alias AMB alias AMBV, especially now that the Sukhois have begun carrying some advanced weaponry :diablo:
I found this profile of a F-86 Sabre from Bangladesh, are there any photographs oif it?
fabeWell I guess many people don’t follow (or don’t understand?) the usual line of argumentation. You have a theory, then go on to explain it and if possible give an example. Now if one tries to carefully explain one’s point and the other party simply ignores it and just tries to contradict you with its own invented theories without explaining them it’s just natural you get aggressive. May I quote a passage from one of the recent most aggressive threads? (Sudanese MiG-29)
Internal security situation has nothing to do with the flow of cash, why pay expenisve military operation in an uninteresting desert? Using Antonovs and Militias is way cheaper. [ ]Social well, being has nothing and really nothing to do with availability of cash, when the central government isn’t interested in huge parts of its population it simply doesn’t spend any money on them.
Damn your ignorant, internal security situation has everything to do with cash flow. Now stop typing nonsense and go away.
fabeThat is point, Ethiopia, Eritrea, Angola and Sudan are all more or less in the same tech/numbers bracket independant of purchases made during the cold war. Fabe tried to claim that all but Sudan got their Fulcrums and Flankers from the Soviet union because he has no idea what he is talking about.
huge part (even if not all) equipment could be purchased quite cheaply
You see that part written in bold italics and underlined? Try to look closely at it. EVEN IF NOT ALL I don’t know whether you have problems with the English language but I think my point was very clear. And for the huge part: MiG-23s Mig-21s Mi-24s Su-25s and Su-22s.
fabeWell the one CH covered with Tarpaulin. The whole MiG-23 thing remains a rather fishy issue. Both were impounded in Togo but it is unclear what happened to them later on. If I remember correctly I even read something that the Togolese Air Force took them over, which in my opinion is just veery unlikely. My educated guess is that they are stored somewhere in Ivory Coast. The peace progress is quite promising so there is no more urgent need to press them into service (if there ever was).
fabeWasn’t that one photographed when impounded in Togo?
fabeIvory Coast : the entire fllet of air combat assets (Mi-25/35, Su-25) were destroyed on the ground by French troops following the attack of a French Army barrack by two Frogfoot, which killed seven soldiers. The Strikemaster hardly reached Ivory Coast when it was compelled to fly back. Two ex-Bulgarian MiG-23MLD(E) were allegedly delivered to that country, and sent back after some months, but there is no evidence of that.
The current AOB of Ivory Coast (combat aircraft) is : 0 + 0 = la tête à Toto ! (French joke).
Not all were destroyed at least two Mi-24 survived although one heavily damaged. At least one SU-25K and the Strikemaster also survived. The air force has meanwhile started operations again with the permission of the UN.
fabeAnother valueless post, you have deliberately ignored Angola, Ethiopia and Eritrea (exmples I gave earlier) because they show that you are wrong.:mad:
Originally Posted by fabe View Post
BTW it also isn’t fair to compare Sudan with Ethiopia or Angola since those countries were close allies of the Soviet Union and therefore a huge part (even if not all) equipment could be purchased quite cheaply.
The Soviet Union collapsed in 1992, how many Flankers and Fulcrums do you think those countries had then, you have just shown that you have no idea what you are talking about……………again.
Originally Posted by fabe View Post
BTW it also isn’t fair to compare Sudan with Ethiopia or Angola since those countries were close allies of the Soviet Union and therefore a huge part (even if not all) equipment could be purchased quite cheaply.
The situation in Eritrea and Ethiopa is completely different, both face a war country against country Sudan faces a CIVIL WAR (go and look up civil war in the dictionary) against rebels without any aircraft. Angola apparently has way less Flankers than expected and the situation is way different because Angolan rebels (go and look up UNITA in the dictionary) got massive support via Congo flown in from eastern Europe and therefore the acquisition of advanced fighter jets indeed made sense, something that isn’t the case in Sudan.
Flanker I stand corrected both with the PC-7 and the Su-25s, nice that at least somebody tries to argue in a rational manner and one can learn new things 😉
Sea Lord larence I’d would be really nice if you read my posts before ranting. Thanks in advance. 🙂
fabeNice one! nly a small correction they’re MiG-21bis 🙂
fabeBTW it also isn’t fair to compare Sudan with Ethiopia or Angola since those countries were close allies of the Soviet Union and therefore a huge part (even if not all) equipment could be purchased quite cheaply. Egypt isn’t really a good comparison either as it receives massive US military aid, is way more developed and has foor times as many inhabitants as Sudan. Now please try to disprove my argumentation instead of turning to insults
fabehey although some of photoshopped there still are some nice real pics of Sf-260s as well as one showing MiG-21s. 🙂
fabeYou need a little update here. Chad has one armed PC-9, two armed PC-7s and four armed SF260Ws (ex-LARAF)
All MiG-21s gone already?
Pucaras no more operational?I record 3 Frogfoots serialled FG-500, FG-501 and FG-502. They also have two MiG-23UBs in hangar and at least one MB326GB
A single photo from Mwanza shows eight F-7s and one FT-7 in fairly good condition..
Chad: afaik the PC-7s aren’t operational anymore. One SF-260 was shot down by the rebels.
Burkina Faso never had MiG-21s the photo showing one in fact shows a MiG from Guinea Bissau The only fighter jet Burkina Faso ever had was a MiG-17 which now is inoperational (probably a defection from Mali).
Mauritania never operated Pucarás one was painted in Mauritanian colors for marketing or evalutation purposes the contract was cancelled.
Congo: I only know of two Frogfoots (500 and 501) pictures taken by German troops of the whole hangar show only two, one crashed during preparations for a military parade. Mig-23s were flown only once, their condition was too bad to update them despite the contract with an Ukrainian company. MB-326 aren’t operational either. One was made operational again with Zimbabwean help but crashed during the first flight.
Tanzania, do you think of the picture showing MiG-21MFs? That one was taken looong time ago. Now the only thing they have are the planes listed above F-7s seem to be not operational either.
fabeThe point is that that Sudans resources are limited hence it uses it Fulcrums in a CAS role with unguided munitions.
Nope In fact it never used them In Darfur for example (only A-5s, Antonovs and Mi-35s) The only reason was that it was a panic situationa and there was the risk of General Bashir government being toppled. And please compare it with other African militaries and not Ethiopia and Egypt which have a much larger population or Eritrea which is a complete exception. Fixed Wing combat aircraft, compare
Chad: 1 PC-7 a few SF-260s
Centra African Republic: 0
Mali: about half a dozen operational MiG-21 perhaps less
Burkina Faso: 0
Mauritania: a few armed SF-260s
DRC Congo: 1 Su-25
Congo Brazzaville: 0
Uganda about 5 operational Mig-21s
Tanzania: 2 F-6 (MiG-19) 3 FT-5
Guinea: 0
Gabon 2 Mirage F.1
Equatorial Guinea 2 Su-25UB
Cote d’Ivoire 4 Su-25 1 Strikemaster
Ghana 4 K-8 Karakorums some MB-326s and MB-339s and L-39s
Liberia: 0
Togo: Alpha Jets probably no more than four or so operational
Mozambique: 0
Senegal: Some Socata Guerriers
Rwanda: 0
Malawi: 0
Namibia 12 F-7s, 4 K-8s
Now please tell me that 24 Mig-29s are the usual equipment of an African airforce.
fabeLOL.. Every soldier of a professional army gets paid for the job, as well. Most airforces bomb schools, incinerate civilians and target refugee camps (or weddings as Garry might point out). Does that mean that every soldier doesn’t deserve better?
Nope in most third world countries they are drafted and have no choice. And you can’t deny there is a difference between other air forces and the SuAF. May you like to see Google Earth to see how Darfurian villages look like? Do the US use Hercules loaden with TNT and nail filled drums to indriscriminately attack villages? I know you now will say it doens’t make a difference whether one gets killed by an Antonov or a F-18 but IT does. The SuAF could very well try to be more accurate but it simply doesn’t want to. One or two misguided bombs or a ethically doubtful decision to accept collateral damage when attacking a target is a difference from deliberately attacking civilians. with no military targets around at all. Yo excuse a MAJOR crime against humanity by saying there are other crimes too, which is true of course, but without taking into account the different dimensions.
fabeDamn your ignorant, internal security situation has everything to do with cash flow.:rolleyes:
Now stop typing nonsense and go away.
If you were so convinced of being right, you would have no need to insult me :rolleyes:
So why had Iraq trouble with the Kurds when it still was fluent with oil money in the 1970s and at the beginning of the 1980s? Why broke Zaire almost apart in the 1970s with the Shaba rebellion, despite revenues from mining industries and Mobutu´s fortune of billion of dollars?
If you are not interested in huge parts of your population or minorities you simply do not spend money on them, no matter how much you have. Therefore insurgencies by them can happen even when you are fluent with cash
Please try to disprove that argument instead of turning to insults.
fabeEhem yes, go and post a full inventory of the sudanese airforce, a breakdown of the internal security situation, the defence budget and overall economic performance. Add to that indicators of social well being. Then come back and take back that stupid post, if you dont know what you are talking about dont post.:mad::mad::mad:
Internal security situation has nothing to do with the flow of cash, why pay expenisve military operation in an uninteresting desert? Using Antonovs and Militias is way cheaper.
Overall economic performance: have you seen Khartoum and how it looks like when compared 15 years ago?
Social well, being has nothing and really nothing to do with availability of cash, when the central government isn’t interested in huge parts of its population it simply doesn’t spend any money on them.
A full inventory of the Sudanese Air Force? Well why not, 24 Mig-29 9-13 Fulcrums, 12 brand new Karakorums, about a dozen Mi-24P and Mi-24V helicopters purchased directly form Russia (the donations from Libya were all phased out), and some other stuff. May I reminbd you that the Sudanese have a local repair plant in which they refurbish part of their Chinese built aircraft? May I remind you that they build the Chinese Type-85 tank, upgraded T-55s and Gvodzdikas in license? Whether the Sudanese army is a professional service may be another question but cash wouldn’t be a problem when it comes to the purchase of rather cheap mud-movers. Do you know why MiG-29s were purchased? Because of tensions with Eritrea. Now that tells a tale, if the Sudanese government buys highly expenisve planes just because of a limited threat of war with Eritrea but hasn’t purchase a single Su-25 during years of civil war then the only reason is, that winning the war in places like Darfur simply wasn’t a priority till now. Why spend gigantic amounts of money on military operations, when you get zero in return?
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