SatorianAs tags are open to distill one’s own grasp on a particular thread, I think they should remain as they are. Just add your own two if you disagree. As long as they remain within the standard ToS, there’s no need to change anything about them.
And how do they interfere with searches? Of course you only click those tags that make sense in your judgment, so all other tags can’t possibly get in your way. For everything else, there’s the standard search.
SatorianAustria pay 63 Millionen Euro „fly-away“ and 100 Million Euro system cost per EF. Germany pay 15.4 billion Euro that corresponds to 75 million Euro per EF whitout RD.
Not completely right. The €15.421 billion contains RD. It’s 15.421 billion for 180 aircraft until 2015, all planned costs included, but adapted for inflation and additional services rendered (like quicker integration of specific parts or systems) as decreed by parliamentary decision.
http://www.luftwaffe.de/portal/a/luftwaffe/kcxml/04_Sj9SPykssy0xPLMnMz0vM0Y_QjzKLN483NDQKBsmB2CZhxvqRYEHvQB-YYIAhVAykMCglVd_XIz83Vd9bP0C_IDc0otzRUREALjBr1Q!!/delta/base64xml/L2dJQSEvUUt3QS80SVVFLzZfN18xMTJT?yw_contentURL=%2F01DB060000000001%2FW26VM8W9406INFODE%2Fcontent.jsp
This works out to about €86m, ALL costs planned and roadmapped as of 2003 included. Should the costs spiral up to 17 billion in the end, it’d be at about €95 million per plane.
That’s all unit programme cost with all costs planned as of 2003.
SatorianSatorianLet’s make it ultra absurd and have Tom teach jet jockies from the scratch how to fly their F-22’s during a great budget crunch – democratic presidency anyone? You can have him use a Super Hornet to catch an F-22 in its cross-hairs just to prove he still “has it”. Then give them a shoe string budget to carry out a strike against the Iranians whom are armed by the French operating spectra-equipped Rafales. The Rafales bait Tom’s team into a missile trap of S-300’s just to keep it interesting before they move in for the kill on everyone but Tom and his girlie co-pilot whom somehow manage to hit the impossible target and fly on vapors back to their carrier…
Pretty good. Throw in a flame-out landing at the ending as they run out of fuel 12 miles off the carrier. With only 600 lbs of fuel left he had to dodge another SAM with afterburner, used up all fuel (dramatic cockpit shots of blinking warning lights, Bitching Betty going crazy and starting to pray, catfighting between Tom and his RIO), used the resulting speed to gain height, sails the plane home and then does a climactic half-crash landing on the carrier. All rejoice.
SatorianI have spoken about it (or more accurately have been told about it) by folk from Dassault, Gripen International, Boeing, and Eurofighter GmbH, and by a number of air forces who have used it.
Did you obtain any printed material on it, preferably coming from the source? What is the source actually? Who ran SILVE? Who has the capabilities to run it?
SatorianI don’t know where you’d find it online, if at all.
So where do we find it offline? Who do I have to write to?
SatorianComing back to the original topic.
I’m interested in SILVE as well, just like LmRaptor. Months ago I already inquired here about it because I couldn’t find it mentioned ANYWHERE except here by Jackonicko and on eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk by Jon Lake. There is NO other mention of it and Jackonicko didn’t mention where one could obtain even the print material on it.
Jackonicko, where did you get the SILVE material from? Where does one have to turn to to obtain it?
SatorianThat’s what they said about the subliminally gay beach volleyball scene. 😀
There was NOTHING subliminal about that.
Also, there was nothing subliminal about the shower scenes, or the high-fiving, or the way Val Kilmer constantly oggled his RIO and rubbed himself into Cruise’s back when “teasing” him.
Really, Top Gun was actually quite camp in that regard.
SatorianAlready been done
Yeah, that’s going to stop Hollywood. :p
SatorianMy guess for story line:
Cruise has to train an elite squadron of pilots to hit an important strike target (read: Iranian nuclear site) that are supposed to go in as black ops / surprise mission to avoid nuclear warfare. During training, two distinct factions form with lots of rubbing and bouncing and shenanigans going on, until they reconcile due to a lethal training accident (of the second male lead character’s best buddy, who will be the funny guy up until then, possibly also Cruise’s rival with a shared love interest), from where on all pull in the same direction, unified by their purpose. The suddenly vacant seat is taken by Cruise, who in an heroic act during the strike mission will save his female love interest that has been hit by a SAM and needs support to get back home. All rejoice.
The end.
As for planes: I guess it’s going to be the F-35, but they’ll downplay the stealth characteristics in favor of some dogfighting footage. Perhaps put a Raptor escort up there as well. Threats: MiG-35 and Su-35.
SatorianHell yeah!!! 😀
All jokes about the movie aside, the aerial footage actually still holds up very well. Of course they babble nonsense inbetween, but the cinematography of the the flight scenes is quite worth it.
Hope they’ll get someone able to direct it.
SatorianI think the only point he’s really trying to make here is that the Hornet pilot was flying as if the fight were still on. The F-22 pilot not. Youtube is filled with this kind of behavior. The loser in a bout will take a poke at the winner after the fight’s over and as the ref is bringing them together. Usually what happens is the winner goes “oh, you still want to fight huh? *BLAM!!* LOL. I’m sure a little old lady with a lead pipe could catch the latest UFC champ from behind in a restaurant and cold clock him. Does that mean she’d beat him in the ring?
That’s exactly my point. Did you see me claiming that the F-18 would outperform the F-22 in real life operations? Hardly. In fact I keep repeating that the F-22 is the superior jet. I do consider it possible though that there is a set of circumstances where an F-22 could go down for any numbers of reasons. Which is why that F-18 bout could have happened but doesn’t matter as much as many people on both side of the fence think. 🙂
That’s all I’m trying to say. 🙂
*goesoffforhiseveningrun*
SatorianIt started from a 9000 foot line abreast 300 knot setup (which AF pilots never fly) where they turned into each other at the “fights on” call.
With greater than a 135 aspect angle and inside of 9000 feet we’re supposed to avoid pure or lead pursuit to avoid that head on collision
How where they supposed to turn into each other? Does that make sense? They already start within this 9000-feet-bubble where they can’t engage beyond 135° aspect and are supposed to “turn into each other”? What kind of setup is that? The “fight’s on” would have had to be followed by an immediate “knock it off, knock it off, knock it off”. Catch-22 much?
The Hornet pilot gave up everything he had to point at the Raptor and take a snap shot – it was NOT a tracking shot (stabilized and enough bullets to cause a kill), it was about 2 or 3 frames (many more required to cause a kill – OK – for you skeptics there’s always the golden BB but let me finish first…).
Take a look at the pictures again. Calculate rate of descent and height difference into time gap between pictures, tell me how long the pipper was on the F-22. Not tracking? Snap shot? 2 or 3 frames?
the Navy pilot was still on the trigger inside the 1000 foot rule
Yes, and he was already on it outside/at the border of it. Also, he wasn’t pulling lead. Look at the FPM.
I’ve had that happen twice to me when I was flying the Eagle as a weapons officer (close enough to hear very loud engine noise and I figured I was dead both times, but God wasn’t ready to take me yet), and both times I knocked off the fight, made the guy fly home, busted him on the ride and he had to explain to me and the boss why he was being stupid.
Useless anecdote. Nice piece of flair though.
And it was a hugely B.S. and completely boneheaded act as you can see from the actual circumstances. In the real world – the Hornet never saw the Raptor and he was dead w/o ever knowing what hit him – that’s the cold hard truth, like it or not – sorry if you’re a Hornet fan but that’s how all of our engagements with Hornets, Tomcats, Eagles, Vipers, etc. have gone. You would be amused if I had time to tell you how the hundreds of engagements went I’ve had with aircraft of all types, the biggest problem we have now is getting anyone to fly with us because they get no training, they never see us and they just die. Unless we promise to do some within visual range manuevering with them where we start and can see each other at the start, no one (Navy or AF) wants to fly vs. the Raptor anymore – that alone ought to tell you what the truth is.”
If he wants to drive BVR prowess home again: Fine, but that doesn’t have anything to do with what happened there in this particular incident.
Now if it makes you feel better to keep insisting that’s a kill by all means do so. :rolleyes:
Discuss the issue, not me.
In my opinion, totally denying that an F-18 could get a guns kill on an F-22 under some set of circumstances places too much importance on it (just like explaining how the F-18 flew clean and how much it different it would have handled in operational loadout – what does it matter if a RoE breach is the supposed explanation?). I mean, so what? Even if the F-18 pilot completely outflew the F-22 in this instance (assuming that he did), that doesn’t mean the F-18 to be superior airframe. It just means that a set of circumstances came together where one F-18 defeated one F-22, which in all expectation are rarely to occur in the F-22’s operational future.
As for Dozer’s explanation: There is a reason he keeps mentioning the existence of the 10% rule.
SatorianThe F-22 had broken off due to ROE
Let’s see. Let’s walk through it slowly.
What was the particular RoE that made him knock it off?
Satorianreally?
i guess thats the reason it got on gunsight camera of a mediocre f-18…
suprise ,suprise, well actually-not.
lerx gave f-18 very good agility at low speed,even with no tvc.
but that picture did struck a lot of nerves…
I guess I’m one of the loudest here when it comes to those pictures. And, while I think that certainly any aircraft can down an F-22 in a one-off-occasion, it would be a tall order to assume that this points to a systemic superiority of the F-18 over the F-22.
While the shot happened as it happened in the furball, I would doubt anyone’s sanity to choose an F-18 over an F-22 to go into a fight.
One F-18 shot one F-22 down? Big deal. Doesn’t mean the F-18 is the better plane, all issues and matters taken into account. Far from it. All the pics tell us is that, yes, there are conditions when an F-22 can be defeated. It doesn’t say that this is going to happen often or on a regular basis.
Sign In
