SatorianThe F/A-18 as your first choice? Dear Lord, even if it’s the SuperHornet and even if its with the AESA radar…
The other two sound much more attractive.
SatorianHere the Italians say the system price (I assume) of the EF2k is 100 million Euro (USD137M) per copy. Quite a figure! Especially compared to the (equally fuzzy) recent figure of 5 (or 7.3) billion USD for 60 F-22A.
http://www.defencetalk.com/news/publish/airforce/Italy_Sees_Cut_in_Eurofighter_Order100012922.php
Is the cited €100m figure unit procurement cost or program unit cost?
And you can’t simply translate it by current exchange rates to compare program costs. PPP-adjusted the price in USD would be around $117m USD.
Does anybody know latest (preferably 2007) unit procurement costs and program unit costs for F-22, F-35, Rafale, Gripen, advanced Flankers or MiG-35 as given in their native currency?
SatorianBut if Australia doesn’t get the Raptor, what are the chances of Japan getting it? Besides, they are looking to replace their F-4s, not their F-15s (of which they still have a lot).
Despite this though, a few days ago the Japanese and the US government signed some new agreement on secrecy and handling of classified data. Perhaps a precursor to technology transfer with the F-22?
SatorianThere are two interesting posts about flight envelope testing on the Typhoon by Teadriver, a test pilot, at pprune.org:
Few idle thoughts on the string. You’re right, Lomcevak, in the effect of power on turning radius in these jets: setting idle power at the top of a loop will lower base height by 500 – 1000 ft, depending on start conditions, height, speed and so on.
It also depends a lot on just where the AOA limiter is set, and that tends to fall out of the clearance processes that define what you’re allowed to test. For all these aircraft, all the initial clearance work comes from lots of modeling in seriously good simulations. For example, before Typhoon’s first ever flight clearance, a minimum of 500 hours qualification testing was flown in the simulator, looking not just at the basic aerodynamics and handling, but also all the worst case tolerances on things like air data accuracy and CG management – and that’s on top of the many more hours spent before that in just developing the design and aerodynamics.
However (and here, put on your Health and Safety at Work mindset) it’s still a simulation based on lots of estimated data, e.g. wind tunnel data and lots of computational aerodynamics, as opposed to “real” aircraft data, so there needs to be a degree of caution in how you apply the simulation results. This might mean, for example, that you won’t clear the aircraft to fly to the maximum AOA you fly in the sim, because you haven’t the necessary level of confidence that the data (in these non-linear, difficult to predict areas) adequately predicts the real performance.
That’s a good philosophy to start with, but then you go fly the real aircraft, match flight data with aero model data and explain, understand and remove the differences, and your flight clearances get better. Or do they? You can actually end up in the Catch 22 situation where you can’t get improve the data because you can’t get the clearances to get the data to improve the clearances. As the exceptionally capable, and often very frustrated flight control system design team test pilot said, the only truth is from God’s wind tunnel, so we have to go and fly to get the truth. But in a heavily politicised, process-driven and risk-averse development environment (and that’s the customer as well, don’t just blame the contractor) it can be impossible to find anyone prepared to sign their name to the clearance. (And no, pilots are never invited to sign clearances until well after others have deemed it appropriate.)
It’s an interesting philosophical test dilemma. I flew the first carefree trials in Typhoon with an AOA limiter set higher than the current service limit, but subsequent modelling (not related to the flight test results) made the clearance empire reduce the limits for general testing, and that inevitably ended up in initial service. Notwithstanding that, the jet was absolutely solid at the peak AOAs, no matter what I did to it and I remain certain that there’s still more usable lift (at much higher drag) at and beyond the AOAs I saw. No, I don’t have the numbers to prove it (Catch 22 again) but I do have judgement and feel – which is why you use human pilots for this, instead of an autopilot.
Basck to the subject matter of displays. I also flew some displays in the jet, both with the earlier (higher) AOA limit and the subsequent service limit. The fundamental difference was that with the higher AOA I had some extra drag to play with, which made a big difference in speed control – I had something to help balance out the stunning thrust. In contrast, at the service AOA levels I could fly much of the display at full back stick but still had to sometimes play with the throttles to keep speed under control. (As Tarnished says, you don’t have a problem getting speed back in these jets , but you can have a problem getting rid of it!)
Indeed I did, although I don’t recall doing anything that challenged the envelope. It’s one of those deceptive things: I used to just fly the jet slow, but not at or near the AOA limit, because a) with lots of wing even a non-limited but reasonable AOA you’re still a fair bit slower than guys at the time were used to, b) because it means you’re around longer so people have more time to look, and they tend then to see more than there is, c) it means the turn radius is small = close = looks impressive and d) with all that wonderful thrust on tap, getting speed or going up through the vertical is no challenge at all. In addition, the prototypes (that was DA2) had lower g limits than production aircraft, so going faster would potentially make you g limited and in the worst case make you look like a USAF F16 display pilot who’s ordered to keep his speed above 400 kts at all times. I also tried to tell guys that although it was a prototype, it weighed much the same as a production aircraft, courtesy of a ton and a half of test instrumentation. And only 92% production thrust too…. Sigh!
SatorianBut as Japan is looking largely for licensed production, would Boeing then really be helped much by a Japanese order? And shouldn’t SK and SG keep Boeing running for a while, especially with their options for more planes?
SatorianDoes anybody know where I can download the Rafale promo videos in full and at high-resolution? The ones I know of are “Global Punch” and “Rafale”. Are the any others?
Post some links to Rafale porn please. 😀
Edit: Never mind, finally found it myself: http://www.dassault-aviation.com/services/fr/menu-newsletterphotovideo/video/defense.html 🙂 Yay!
SatorianI think Boeing is a contractor on the F-22 and F-35 as well, so they would earn their share with Japanese F-22s as well. But they’ll probably earn more with selling their own designs. 🙂
SatorianBut nor do I read praise for Rafale uncritically, any more than I read gushing praise for Typhoon (by James May, the various Fleet Streeters who’ve flown it, or Craig Hoyle) without taking into account their previous experience.
James May said that Typhoon ‘climbed like a homesick Angel’. So what, he’s an automotive journo, and I could probably have provoked the same comment out of him in my local flying group’s Maule.
It made me laugh that you felt the need to bother with what James May said, as he has no place being discussed among aviation journalists (although he has some limited PPL) or journalists at all. He’s an entertainer and I don’t think the phrase was meant as a true performance assessment and especially not as a comparative argument. (Unless some unheard of ISO or SI specification defines the speeds of angels, whether idle ones, fallen ones or homesick ones. But then again I would check with DIN first, they attempt to define EVERYTHING.)
To me it sounded like he wasn’t praising the Eurofighter in general and as such, but was describing his experience in the jet. He very probably would have said the same in a Rafale or F-15, just because people are tired of hearing that something “goes like stink.”
Seriously, he’s called Captain Slow on TG, has studied music (the harpsichord if I recall correctly) and the previous TV series was about a 6-part wine tour through France. Not considering his opinion among aviation journalism is hardly an act of merit or worth commendation. It should be the default.
SatorianQuestions Mount about PAK-FA Schedule, Funding
Recent conflicting statements by Russian officials and defense industry spokesmen have raised questions about the true status of the Russian PAK-FA Fifth-Generation Fighter Program.
Two of the many hats worn by Russian First Deputy Prime Minister Sergei Ivanov are CEO of the new Unified Aurcraft Company (OAK) and head of the Military-Industrial Commission (MIC). In both positions he has been pushing for Russian defense industry to fulfill its orders and complete tasks assigned to production centers, but his exhortations eem to have had the opposite of the desired effect. At a meeting of the MIC in April he complained that “delivery of state-ordered weaponry is around two to three months behind what we had last year.”
The PAK-FA seems to one of those programs that has fallen far behind in its originally planned schedule. Ivanov had stated recently that the new fighter will fly sometime next year, but this would seem impossible given the true stage of the program.
Sources in Moscow tell Show News that at this point the final configuration drawings have been passed to the Kosomalsk-na-Amure (KnAAPO) and Novosibirsk (NAPO) plants, but the two factories are still a long way from having a flying prototype.
At the same time, NPO Saturn, which responsible for development of an engine for the PAK-FA, has stopped work on this program due to what it calls a lack of support and funding from the MoD. Reportedly, Saturn’s position in the project had been questioned by recently retired air force chief General Vladimir Mikhailov, who had proposed an alternative design by the Salyut engine production enterprise. Salyut’s design reportedly would generate a higher 15.3 tonnes of thrust, compared with the 14.5-tonne NPO Saturn Engine.
Those watching this seesaw battle in Moscow state that “the only way there can be a flight next year is if a decision is made to re-brand the Su-35 as the PAK-FA.” This would be a political, face-saving fig leaf, but it would also give adequate time to develop a real fifth-generation design at KnAAPO and NAPO–to then be introduced later as an “advanced medium combat aircraft” or under some other label.
-Reuben F. Johnson, Aviation Week Show News, June 19th, 2007, http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/paris061907/index.php?startpage=66
Seems like it’s going to take a while until the PAK-FA materializes. Designs not absolutely finalized or tested, contractors stopping work due to a lack of funding and political trench wars slowing everything even more down.
Satorian“There is a lot of talk about F-22 and F-35 but if Japan wants to maintain its timeline for the FX it will make a decision without those aircraft. The JSF will not be ready in time and it’s our belief that, just like Australia, the F-22 will not be allowed for Japan. At some point maybe yes, but not now.“
-Chris Chadwick, VP and General Manager Global Strike Systems, Boeing — June 19th, 2007, Aviation Week Show News, http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/paris061907/index.php?startpage=44
Boeing is also offering a mix of Super Hornets and Eagles to Japan. The Japan Air Self-Defense Force has a requirement to replace its upgraded F-4EJ Kai Phantoms, however Japan is pushing strongly to acquire the F-22 Raptor–an aircraft that is far from being a Phantom replacement. Apart from the extraordinary cost, the greatest obstacle to Japan’s F-22 plans is a formal U.S. prohibition on exports.
“We just don’t see the Congressional ban being lifted,” Kronenbert told Show News.[/B] “A few months ago (U.S. Deputy Secretary of Defense) Gordon England told Australia that the F-22 would not be released for international sale. Also the Defense Security Co-operation Agency has said that it would take $1 billion in non-recurring costs just to redesign the aircraft for a co-production release in Japan. That’s really problematic and it would take three or four years just to figure out how to do that.
“An F-22 refusal has to be figured into their thinking, even thought it’s not directed against Japan specifically. But the bar is not going be lifted and F-22 production comes to an end in 2009 or 2010 so that in itself was always going to be a problem for their program.”
-Excerpt from “Boeing IDS Looks to Asia for Growth” by Robert Hewson, Aviation Week Show News, June 20th 2007, http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/paris062007/index.php?startpage=36
At least Boeing seem very convinced that the Raptor won’t go to Japan. I wonder whether they will keep buying into the US protectorate by buying the SuperHornet or the Eagle, or whether they’ll go for one of the Eurocanards.
SatorianI’m not completely sure, but I think so.
Several weeks ago, on the Sat1 program about the Eurofighter, they had a guy going to through the Eurofighter conversion and he had to wear “a new suit” in the centrifuge.
Accelerating moderately up to 9g he didn’t even have to perform AGSM, which surprised him and the guys in the back room waiting for their turn couldn’t believe it when he told them.
Another requisite run was instant acceleration to 9g, which the pilots then had to take for 15 seconds without losing consciousness. He passed that as well, and although it did take its toll on him and seemed strenuous, it didn’t look like it became harder to take with every second. Wouldn’t be surprised if he had been able to take 30 or 45 seconds. He was very fond of the suit in his comment afterwards.
Satorianhttp://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/mh/paris061807/index.php
See page 108. 😉
Thank you for that link! Very interesting articles and the flight report about the Rafale was very interesting to read. 🙂
SatorianI have no clue what Japan wants. I just thought the Typhoon looked pretty in that Aoi/Midori aggressor scheme.
SatorianMeh, just to spite the nay-sayers, here’s the fantastic mock-up glanini posted sometime ago in a thread on Japan and the Typhoon.
SatorianJOUST is a long time ago, now, and getting information on it now is as hard as getting information on (say) the YF-17. There must be tons of stuff in decent libraries (RAES, for example) if you were really interested.
For its actuality alone, the SILVE evaluation is already very interesting. What is RAES though?
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