Armed UpdateI am laughing my a** off for the anti-F-35 guys so invested in hate they see every win for the JSF as either rigged or fake.
-Remember back when they said the F-35 will get beaten by a MiG-21 and they judged an F-16 with two fuel tanks would beat it, by simply looking at a software test for angle of attack? Now, a Norweign F-35 is able to outturn the F-16 and is far more capable.
-Remember they said a “death spiral” will happen that the no more than a couple hundred will be ordered, and the price will spike up to $300 million?
-Remember back, they said the A-10 was far more capable, and now after the tests, it shows the F-35 is far more better in dealing with a opponent with any sort of air defense?
The list goes on and on and on.
Can’t wait till the F-35 meets these competitors at Red Flag and completely annihilates them.
Armed UpdateSaying, like you say, that a stealth aircraft would need support to operate imply rebus sic stantibus that it would need to work together with not VLO aircraft or resort to use stand off weapons.
So, I repeat here again my own position: implementation of LO technologies are a must for any military hardware, introducing brand new VLO is something still absolutely convenient but beyond a certain point investing additional resources and accepting to reduce performances just to get further reduction of RDS is actually counterproductive.
How is it counterproductive?
Armed UpdateNo, they are commonplace nowadays, after all many semiactive SAM systems have optical backup guidance. NASAMS 2 has IR sensors as part of the network, and you can always buy off-the-shelf sensor and integrate it to existing system.
But of course they don’t give good range information and range is shorter and subject to weather disturbances etc.
NASAM is not a long range SAM.
Do you have a source the Patriot, Stunner, H-9 and S-400 have these systems?
Armed UpdateSo again, you need to have a whole suite of radars up and running, and communicating with each other, just to have a chance of carrying out a successful attack against a stealth aircraft,
Even with a suite of radars, the likely ones to detect stealth aircraft with any sort of range are early warning low frequency ones which mostly likely would be the ones attacked first. Aqusition and Fire Control radars operating on the X-band, will have a difficult time, even with a multistatic radar system since Radar absorbent materials weakens signals plus signals reflected away need receivers operating in multiple directions. It faces the same limits of passive radars.
Of course the Russians won’t just use SAMs but use fighters to intercept the enemy.
Armed UpdateThey do, in fact they are rather common in more modern AA systems. How useful they are for example in detecting stealth aircraft, well that’s another question.
From what I know optical systems are common on short range systems like Pantsir and IRIS-T, but not in long ranged missile defenses such as S-400.
Armed UpdateI was oversimplifing the procedure, so forgive me if I have gave you the false impression that it was a direct thing.
As amatter of fact such procedure implies the combined use of different radars each one taking care of just a portion of the engagement sequence while against conventional planes a simple radar, usually in X band) can take care of all of them.
The VHF radars would so take care of the first part of the acquisition sequence, looking throught the whole sky in Wide search mode, they will detect incoming aircraft and give an initial assestment of its own position and ABOVE ALL route and pass the information to the decimetrical and centimetrical that would search just that portion of sky using narrow o even a spot on search mode , using such modes resolution and the range increase dramatically as they concentrate their power beam in just a portion of sky in order to reduce the acquisition boxes after they would pass the obtained data to SAM batteries that would launch missiles.using their own radars to do mid course guidance, usually such radar would be positioned at a consistent distance one from the other and would so illuminate the targets from different directions.
Give a look to the document Ozair has send there is a good illustration of how the NEBO_M i.e. their latest operative air defense radar complex operate.
Er, no Nebo-M is simply a mobile radar system of a newer VHF radar, a L-band tracking radar and X-band tracking radar. Er, no, you use the VHF for early warning purposes. You always would use the X-band to acquire and track the targets and guide missiles.
For the last parts, I don’t even know what you said. Concentrating power doesn’t make it as accurate as an X-band. Using an X-band on stealth is exactly what stealth is for, defeating extremely high frequency radars.
Armed UpdateArmed update, what maximum range are you talking about?
Look how we are discussing about VHF being able to engage them at something between 50 and 100 NMI a quarter to an half of the S-400 maximum distance.
And the same for mid course update, from the beginning it was considered a fundamental part of the ecquation.
Every existent Arh missiles come with one just because differently than the previous SaRh such a guidance system doesn’t cover all the missile course but just the final phase.
For the rest exactly to who are you responding with this tirade about engaging a plane at 400km?
Maybe it’s just me that have lost some chapter of actual debate and wonder how such a topic sprang out.
How would that even work? A Nebo SVU VHF radar at 100 NM will have a 5 km range of error.
A 65N6E will have a 1 km range of error.
The S-400 uses neither radar to lock on to it’s target. It uses a separate fire control radar. Which has way less error.
So if it did use the Nebo SVU to lock on and provide midcourse update, the missile would be so freaking inaccurate since it needs to go to a point 5 km off, and then hope miraculous that it’s ARH seeker finds it’s target(which is harder since the seeker is small and has to spot stealth), make a hard turn and hope it hits the target.
Again, if this trick will work, why do the Russians need X-band radars? Why not just use VHF radar for missile guidance?
Armed UpdateWhhat? The acquisition radars would be turned on when they are in range of the F-35, not before of course!
ARH missile? What ARH missile? The F-35 won’t have ARH missile before an eternity.
And how exactly would Aqusition radars spot and track the F-35? They are not VHF.
I don’t see the problem with turning them on. If your VHF radar gets knocked out, you won’t see anything.
Jamming? The APG-81 cannot jam the frequencies of those radars. Hence the need for the growlers for that, which ruins the stealth of the Attack.
Use NGJ or Mald-J.
Are you talking about Aqusition and Fire Control….those are X-band. Which is the same bandwith of the APG-81….
And who said they would fire their missiles at the absolute max range? That makes no sense, but these missiles can still deny tankers are AWACS from approaching. The fighters can provide long range interception.
.
And why the hell would you do that? Absolute range means the missile can’t manuver for jack. And noticed I said fighter target.
The Pantsir radar would be turned on only when the missiles are detected by the surveillance radar. It won’t be that easy to kill. The F-35 will take a lot of risk to Attack it.
MADL-J? Who will launch it, without being shot down? B-52? F-16s? Say goodbye to your the effect of surpise if you use those planes. And can the small jammer in a MADL that kind of radar? Not sure at all..
How will it be shot down? The launch plane can launch it long out of the range of any SAM system.
Yes but SAM systems cost a hell of a lot less than fighters, both to buy and operate. We’re not event talking about ground based IRSTs which are relatively inexpensive and which could be a nightmare for stealth plane in clear weather if they are datalinked together.
Ground based IRSTs? Yeah……they don’t exist.
Even if there is clear weather spotting through those layers of atmosphere of a target in different plains of water vapor is not going to have much effect.
Armed UpdateWhat is the this nonsense that “the F-35 sucks at SEAD because many of the munitions are not ready yet’? Uh the F-35 is not meant to be FOC till around 2021. So saying that it a reasoning of why it shouldn’t be developed or will be a bad aircraft is laughable.
Low frequency radars? Are you people high? Who the hell uses low frequency radars for missile guidance? ARH missiles solve the problem? Eh, if that was the case, the Russians wouldn’t even bother making seperate Acquisition radars and separate Fire control radars for that matter, just let the ARH missile find it’s target.(which the seeker is very small). Not only is VHF-band and UHF-band radar inaccurate as hell but a lot easier to jam and spot. Without midcourse updates, the missile will be forced to rely on it’s seeker to steer it’s way inaccuratley to a target it may not even acquire(seekers usually don’t turn on till terminal phase) since it’s stealth unless it was super close and too late. You want, do not want your missile to engage in hard turns before terminal phase since inside an atmosphere that will slow down the missile due to drag. Add it to the fact that most modern MAW sensors can spot missiles very well at will engage in evasive maneuvers to throw the missile off target. You never want to fire your missile at max ranges against a fighter target.
Also what is the assumption that every single PGM will be shot down? A throw of MALD-J decoys at an enemy air defense will overwhelm it with false targets. You would need to cover every single location with the trajectory of a SAM and enough radar coverage. A storm of stealth weapons like the JAASM and JSOW armed with cluster munitions each can overwhelm a Pantsir system.
Even against a non-stealthy target, a S-400 missile system will rely often on hiding in clutter and surprise than outranging his opponents. Remember you never really want to engage at the maximum missile range, because fighters can engage in evasive manuvering. An S-400 unit with 40N6 will likely never fire at an F-16 at 400 km unless it wants to waste it’s missiles. 200 km maybe but it will mostly be ripple fire. Against a S-300 armed opponent, even a 4th Gen fighter like a F-16 just armed with these newer Small-Diameter bombs or JDAM-ER can cause nasty damage for they don’t need to engage the missiles in DEAD just their radars. It will force the SAMs to waste their missiles.
SAMs vs Aircraft is a lot like Artillery vs Tanks. The mobile weapon is simply more adaptable as shown in Battle of France where tanks all grouped together and engaged at a single point. They can focus all their power on one kill point, will the SAMs need to be spread out to defend every point in the border.
Armed UpdateYou know the pig-worshippers.. First years they were masturbating on how the F-35 would outfly and outaccelerate anything that flies sans the F-22.. After the F-35 has failed big time in that regard, .
Nobody claims the F-35 will outaccelerate other fighters, it will just do so with weapons since most fighters have to carry weapons externally.
How has that failed in that regard? Was there some sort of speed test?
they have found a new shrine.. sensors.. now it’s radar that detects everything but itself can’t be detected.. EODAS which sees everything at 800+ miles..
Nobody claims it can see everything out to 800 miles….
EOTS which will deal with future stealthy threats but the pig itself can’t be seen on IRST.. then at least a gazzilion of internally carried CUDA missiles which aren’t even on paper yet… funny stuff.. but it will turn out to be a similar disappointment as with the kinematics, no worries..
Nobody claims the F-35 cannot be seen on IRST.
You are nothing but an angry F-35 hateboning lunatic making up false claims. Can’t wait for you to bring up vs. F-16 CLAW test. Go ahead, I am waiting for a good laugh.
Armed UpdateA PW-229 engined F-15E has much higher T/W than F-22.
No it isn’t. There F-22 accelerates much faster. I can’t find one source where the F-15E has a higher T/W.
Its has same wingloading, airfoils at half thickness, and has less wing area to cause drag. It also has multishock variable inlet ramps in place of fixed pitot inlet of F-22, and doesn’t need to be oversized to accomodate an internal bay. This F-15E can do M2,35 at around 37k feet when clean (that means no CFT), fastest turbofan aircraft without a variable inlet mechanism to control shockwave geometry is F-16, which does M2,05 clean. F-22 with huge wing area, and inferior T/W will surely be more F-16-like rather than being even comperable to F-15. Claiming F-22 doing M2,6 is horse**** hardly worth answering. F-22’s exact speed is known to be Mach 2.0 class, so its somewhere between M2.0 and M2.1, really no dreams about M2.3 or anything..
The 229 has a thrust around 60,000 lbs for 2 engines
The F-22 engine can thrust to more than 70,000 lbs+ for 2 engines
“Mach 2 class”-that can mean anything in the Mach 2 region. The fact is the F-22 is known for its impressive speeds.
Both MiG-25 and MiG-31 can go M2.83 with full A-A complement. Typical intercept missions are conducted at M2.5+ routinely. Suprising maybe, but actually this is not the most impressive part;
Source?
F-22 factsheet says above 15km, nothing concerete, so we are speculating.
Really, because there are sources of the F-22 going 80,000 feet.
https://books.google.com/books?id=NMhm9Oybxy8C&pg=PT635&lpg=PT635&dq=F-22+80,000+feet&source=bl&ots=VM9rqcTdOx&sig=emApGrfz8u2ApJKNuBLSetafUDU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAmoVChMIl4a6yN71yAIVDtljCh0cGgk8#v=onepage&q=F-22%2080%2C000%20feet&f=false
And can easily fly 60,000 feet.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Security-Industry/2015/10/02/F-22-Raptors-deploy-to-Middle-East/3061443819180/
That is I assume you are talking about A/G payload. Because with AA payload F-35’s performance is hardly comperable to “heavys” like Su-27/30/35 or F-15/22. A Su-27 can go M1.7 with 6xR-27R and 4xR-73 at full fuel load. an F-35 can neither carry 10 missiles, nor can go M1,7. With 4 AAMs, a Su-27 can go M2.2, and F-15C can go M2,3, there is no contest.
You sure about that?
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=21431&t=1&sid=b6b3684c3a002e6538f623a0a3d0cb25
And you do realize the F-35 has achieved Mach 1.67. Hmm where are you getting those numbers?
Armed UpdateFrom FlightGlobal article:
Note- watch Msphere try to wiggle out of another fail, as I clearly stated “except for the “B” version. Just another addition to the legion of errors MSphere makes in an attempt to label everyone who puts holes in his bias. Then he can always fall back on the always popular “fanboy and L-M paid poster” crutch to cover his failure to grasp that one does not have to “love” the F-35 to see that unreasoned irrational negativity toward a particular aircraft colors his every post.
Shh…..LM’s F104 sucks, so the F-35 sucks as well. LM somehow made the F-104 before LM even existed!
Armed UpdateYour behavior scores 9 out of 10 of the things I have just mentioned.. A coincidence? I think not but if, purely by chance, you are not one of these, just an ordinary guy with relatively poor manners, then I suggest you change your tune quickly and quit the “bonehater this / fanboy that” naming thing.. A true newbie would have problems to even identify who is he talking to, let alone resort to calling names..
When did I ever say anything like “oh I own this place”, I only aimed it at you once you started calling me names.
My
BTW, in your posts I have not found a single source which backs up your statements
Okay what source do you want me to provide on what info I said? All you have to do is ask. The electronic stuff is rather easy, I can just provide a picture of the APG-81 have 1600 modules vs RBE22’s 1000. They both are GaaS, so the F-35’s is obviously more powerful.
http://img.cjdby.com/data/attachment/forum/201308/02/103749lvjjn9jls6718u1v.jpg.thumb.jpg
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4697061&c=EUR&s=AIR
I am open to anything you ask unlike you who gets defensive and automatically assume I am some LM sales troll.
Armed UpdateWait LM lost a F-104? I didn’t know LM even existed back then…..:highly_amused:
Armed UpdateThere is no “source” and “prove it”, poopie. Do something yourself and look it up.. You just came in, have like what, 9 posts on your account and already want to organize half of the forum members to look up sources for you?
Forget it… Earn your respect, then we’ll talk..
Being a newbie of this forum does not mean I am somehow a moron what it comes to avionics. Funny how you are Rank 5 register user and show such disrespect. Very mature. I haven’t said anything negative about your or called you any names.
I gave my reasons why. Your reasons are Rafale-fanboyism and LM hateboner.
Your post on how the Rafale can detect enemy emissions shows your knowledge on military airplanes and your lack of knowledge most have RWR just like the Rafale.
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