MiG, nothing is ever as simple as it seems. Supposedly 60% of the Raptor’s capabilities are still classified. It has technology and research that outpaces every fighter today especially in terms of electronics and stealth.

djcross has a lot of experience those fields and I would love for you to try to dispute him.

Just more proof that MiG-23MLD doesn’t know what he’s talking about.

Again, MLD you simplify complex things, showing that you do not know much about the design of the F-22.

No there isn’t anything the F-22 can do that the Su-37 can’t and vice versa. That’s not the point. The point is that the F-22 combines the agility of the Flankers with supercruise and stealth. Period. If you do not understand that then there is no hope for you.

The faceting on the F-117 is nowhere near the same as the stealth features employed on the F-22. The F-22’s stealth was designed with aerodynamic requirements involved. You cannot just simply say that the faceting makes it worse than the Flanker because you have no proof.

The F-15 ACTIVE uses 3D nozzles similar to the OVT, not flattened nozzles. There is almost no aerodynamic relation between the F-15, F-117, and F-22.

question wich aircraft will be more efective the F-22 using 2D thrust vectoring nozzles or the MiG-29OBT fitted with 3D vectoring nozzles?

More effective in what? In general, the 3D TVC system allows for greater yaw inputs than 2D.

You are creating an urban myth that the F-22 is so great because it is stealthy and has the best aerodynamics and thrust vectoring nozzles.

Again, where did I say the Raptor has the best aerodynamics? I said that has more advanced concepts employed in its design than the Flanker and Fulcrum. Is there something wrong with having a stealthy but manueverable airframe? Obviously, the Raptor engineers had more than enough money and time to do it.

How is it a myth that the Raptor is so great because of its stealth, speed, and manueverability? Those are it’s main selling points and it has met all of the requirements.

Please do not infer mirages and urban myths, look a Video of the Su-37 or MiG-29OBT. thrust vectoring usually works in conjuction with the aircraft surface planes, it works in the same way in Su-37 and in the F-22, it will be the same in the MiG-29OBT or in the F-16VISTA/MATV, the reason is thrust vectoring control have to work in conjunction with all the aircraft planes to get best results.

What are you talking about? We already know that most all of the fighters with thrust vectoring use them in conjunction with control surfaces. What myths are you talking about?

The difference with the Raptor is that it uses it’s control surfaces in all manuevers. Again, I have not seen a fighter use its control surfaces like the Raptor.

The MiG 1.44 had more controls surfaces than even the F-22 and was suposed to be powered by engines with thrust vectoring nozzles, the MiG 1.44 or MFI have to use all its surface planes in sincrony with the thrust vectoring nozzles.

OK but the MiG is not in production and really has nothing to do with this thread. I am sure that MiG probably had a very good design drawn up but we’ll never see it in action.

No you are wrong the MiG-1.44 has a nose profiled to generate some lift, several books mentioned it, among them one by Yefim Gordon.

I meant the lifting body in between the engines like the Tomcat, Flanker, and Fulcrum.

The F-22 can no be compared to the Su-27 that has AoA limits 120 degrees without even thrust vectoring and the 360 degrees with thrust vectoring.

Those are transient numbers. I’m talking about sustained AoA. Look at what Doggy posted earlier. The daytime limits of the Su-27 are around 30 degrees AoA sustained in normal operation.

The MiG-29 is another example of how thrust vectoring improves AoA handling; the F-22 is not the perfect aircraft there are no such aircraft.

I never said that it was perfect. I proved that the aerodynamics are much better than what you and Firebar are assuming. You have not provided any facts disputing the analysis by Vortex.

any aircraft as Firebar said has advantages and disadvantages, the F-22 configuration is not perfect, faceting impacted in its aerodynamics, as a whole the aircraft is the best all around aircraft that combines stealth with high performance but it does not mean can not be surpassed by other aircraft in some areas

I never said it couldn’t be surpassed in some areas. Again, you and Firebar are just making assumptions about the F-22. You have no basis in fact and you have shown that you do not know much about the Raptor airframe. I have proved that the Raptor’s aerodynamics are ahead of the competition as they should be considering the length and price of its development.

You might have the idea the aircraft is perfect, it is the best compromised between agility and stealth that is true but it is not an aircraft that a MiG-29OBT can not be more agile if it is fitted with thrust vectoring.

Huh?

That is laughable, except by the wing design that probably has taken supercruise into consideration all those statements are in direct contradiction with reality, one of the best fighters designed aerodynamically in Russia after the MiG-29 and Su-27 were the MiG-1.44 and S-37, both aircraft do not look like the F-22 at any point.

So what if the Raptor doesn’t look like the S-37 and MiG 1.44! It has probably had more aerodynamic testing than both of them combined and more. You can’t just look at a plane and tell it’s aerodynamics. How do you know that the aerodynamics of the S-37 and MiG 1.44 are better than the Raptor? You have no proof whatsoever.

Vortex has proven time and time again that he knows what he talking about. You however, have not.

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All right. I can agree with that, but are you sure that the pilot who has done Cobra in F-22 is not best of the best in USAF service.
We can not be sure yet that the F-22 is safe enough for regular average service pilots to perform Cobra.

I don’t know where you’re getting this from. All the pilots do is pitch up at 250kts, hold the stick back until they reach the intended AoA, then pitch back down. The aircraft does not depart from flight, there is no danger for Raptor pilots, that is the meaning of carefree handling. They can practically try anything and the fighter will recover.

One pilot even mentioned that they have every new pilot do this to get used to the Raptor’s pitch rate.