phrozenflamePhrozenflame: Some people might tell you that World War II slowed things down, in that between 1939 and 45 normal politics effectively ceased; who can tell what would have happened had World War II not occured. But now we’re into the murky realms of counter-history.
Steve.
The British Imperials were well known for their delaying-tactics politics or whatever is the right word.
phrozenflameI remember reading a couple years ago about a group of US congressmen who took their very first trip to China. They had pretty much of the skeptical backward view of China before going. When they came back, they sounded the alarm bells in Congress that China was a threat. Why? Was is because they were treated unfairly and the Chinese people spat on them with all their hate? No. Was it because they saw a military police state and the leaders only made threats to them and the US? No. It was because they saw this hi-tech metropolis being built in China where the major cities were at least on par with any modern city of the West.
And these are the elected leaders of the most powerful country in the world? I know the American public choses to be blind about the world but those in Congress? You’d figure they would know what’s going on and not be relegated to knowing the world through American television and movies. I wonder if those congressmen were alarmed and angry by the Chinese people not living in straw huts by dirt roads.
I wouldnt be surprised one day China being pulled into “War on [American-Spread] Terrorism” Its not China asking for a fight, its the Americans looking for reasons.
phrozenflamePackard, dear boy- if you dont have anything worthwhile to say, then its best not to say anything at all. Contrast bringiton’s post #142 with your #144- that of a mature reply vs a petulant one.
I think its best you let the serious posters talk, while you stick to crossposting pretty pictures, which you do reasonably well. 😎
You’ve had your share of immautre posts way more in numbers than Packard.
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20060908.aspx
September 8, 2006: Pakistan and China have so far failed in their two decade effort to produce high-tech weapons for export markets. So far, the effort has produced the Al-Khalid tank (a souped up version of the Russian T-72), the F22P frigate (a 2,600 ton warship with mediocre anti-air/ship/submarine weapons) and the FC17 fighter (an F-16 wannabe, with about half the performance.) All of these systems sell for about half what Western equivalents go for. But customers are apparently more concerned with performance.
These joint development deals were not set up just for exports, but to take advantage of other benefits. Pakistan, for example, h as more recent experience in mechanized warfare. In fact, China has not fought a major campaign in over fifty years, and only two minor ones (mountain warfare with India in the 1960s, and some border battles in the jungles with Vietnam in 1979). China has done some air and naval skirmishing with the Taiwanese, but nothing as intense as what the Pakistanis have gone through as recently as 1999 (another mountain battle, with India). China has more money and industrial infrastructure than Pakistan, and this has helped Pakistan build up its military-industrial capabilities. .
Back in the 1980s, when the two countries began this co-production deal, apparently they believed that Pakistan’s stature in the Moslem world would provide a marketing advantage. Alas, the end of the Cold War, plus the spectacular performance of U.S. weapons in the 1991 Gulf War, made “cheap and simple” a much harder sell.
The end result is that China is getting some more arms exports. But it has long been exporting to Pakistan. The real winner is Pakistan, which gets to build up its arms production capability.
You can goto Chinese Exports Thread for more information and since you seem to be very fascinated about Strategypage articles, perhaps you could forward a link to the editors as well :). Thats my answer to 95% of your post.
Strategypage failed to touch the export successes such as K-9, Artillery Units to Kuwait and many more etc
Al-Khalid is an on-going process, its not the end of things for PA, for everyone’s information, now they’ve been seemed to be equipped with Varta, slow and steady improvements :), while there is no harm trying to export it [apparently BD or SL has got some very few, I’m not sure which of the country] they’re doing the job they were intended for :).
Strategy Page cant even say a proper name, its FC-1 and JF-17, not FC-17, but I’m still wasting my time commenting on the article, the plane is just fine and improving constantly, apart from Pakistan, who are the major stake holders, its common sense for everyone else to wait and see what the final picture will be, you dont sell an unfinished product…unless you get to share the profits/ see the final configuration.
Pakistan nor China are really concerned if the Planes or tanks make any sales outside their respective borders, we want a product, we get one, simple as that 🙂 , any sales outside is a bonus, there is a viable market, no harm trying to go there :)..atleast China got products to sell 😉
Yes Indeed China has the biggest Millitary Industry, maybe apart from Russia, it has a bigger muscle than anyone else in west,east and South 😉 around it.
Strategy Page thinks Kargil was a more dramatic event than China-India war in early 60s, yea sure, once Leeroy Jenkins, forever Leeroy Jenkins.
And Thank You for the link regarding the Grifo 🙂
phrozenflamePakistan selects new fast attack craft
Robert Karniol JDW ASia-Pacific Bureau Chief
Bangkok
The Pakistan Navy has selected Turkish advanced composite MRTP 33 (Kaan 33)-class design for its next generation fast attack/patrol craft, with an order placed with Ankara for two vessels.
The MRTP 33 is designed and built at the Yonca-Onuk shipyard, the latest in a series that includes the MRTP 15 operated by Pakistan’s Special Service Group. It has a length of 35.6 m and carries a complement of 20, with a CODAG (combined diesel and gas) high-speed propulsion system consisting of twin MTU diesels and a Honeywell TF50 gas turbine powering two MJP water jets.
The diesels allow a patrol speed of 28 kt, while the gas turbine can produce a maximum speed of some 60 kt. Maximum speed is given as 64 kt in calm water and 40 kt in Sea State 4. The boat is capable of operations for up to three days at ranges up to 970 n miles at a speed of 15 kt and 850 n miles at 36 kt.
These capabilities are an improvement on the performance of the MRTP 33 in service with the Turkish Coast Guard and Pakistan’s vessels will also be more heavily armed.
“The craft is able to carry larger equipment/payload such as a combined 30 mm gun, two 12.7 mm machine guns, short-range surface-to-surface stabilised missile launcher, medium-range surface-to-surface fibre-guided missiles, electro-optical fire-control systems and decoys,” according to a navy statement.
“The craft has improved reduced signatures, stealth features, threat avoidance/detection and ballistic protection,” the statement added.
The navy said the acquisition should provide better control of littoral and coastal waters. Its roles would include: patrol; escort; fast attack missions; maritime interdiction operations at high seas; anti-terrorist protection of coastal and offshore installations; insertion and extraction of special forces; surveillance; special operations support with naval commando delivery vehicle; and search and rescue.
Neither cost nor delivery timetable has been disclosed, nor is it clear whether the Pakistan Navy intends to acquire additional vessels in future.
Pakistan inducts missile craft into naval service (jdw.janes.com 10/05/06)
-Credits: Xinhui, http://www.Pakdef.info Forums
phrozenflameRegarding the FC-1 canopy, Here are some pics from similar angle..
This one seems the closest:
http://jf-17.com/pt-1/wwwjf-17com0102.html
Judge yourself…
Similar Angles:
http://jf-17.com/pt-1/wwwjf-17com0038.html
http://jf-17.com/pt-1/wwwjf-17com0072.html
http://jf-17.com/pt-1/wwwjf-17com0080.html
http://jf-17.com/pt-1/wwwjf-17com0150.html
phrozenflameActually Phrozenflame, the British governemnt had already held a series of round table conferences (1930-32) on Indian independence, and whilst the idea was resisted by certain voluable elements within the establishment (Churchill being notable) many politicians had already accepted it as inevitable. Whilst some sought to restrict Indian independence to Dominion status.
As Gandhi observed a couple of hundred thousand British soldiers could not control hundreds of millions of Indians if the Indians did not cooperate, once this simple logic was recognised by both sides it was only a matter of time before Indian/Pakistani inependence followed.
Steve.
I am not denying the role of the people of Sub continent to gain independance, this simple logic became logic when their were not enough resources from the centre…It was inevitable indeed, I intend to say World War II speeded up things…
phrozenflameActually Phrozenflame, the British governemnt had already held a series of round table conferences (1930-32) on Indian independence, and whilst the idea was resisted by certain voluable elements within the establishment (Churchill being notable) many politicians had already accepted it as inevitable. Whilst some sought to restrict Indian independence to Dominion status.
As Gandhi observed a couple of hundred thousand British soldiers could not control hundreds of millions of Indians if the Indians did not cooperate, once this simple logic was recognised by both sides it was only a matter of time before Indian/Pakistani inependence followed.
Steve.
I am not denying the role of the people of Sub continent to gain independance, this simple logic became logic when their were not enough resources from the centre…It was inevitable indeed, I intend to say World War II speeded up things…
phrozenflameSee, when you say Arab friends, you really mean Arab customers…
You dont negotiate peace with freinds do you 😉
phrozenflameSee, when you say Arab friends, you really mean Arab customers…
You dont negotiate peace with freinds do you 😉
phrozenflameAs an Israeli I can’t understand Hizballah’s motives, because they’re wrong. Some Lebanese, mostly in exile, also understand that they’re wrong.
Believe it or not, Gollevainen, but not every Lebanese thinks that Hizballah is the Arab’s world’s shining knight. Many understand that it was Hizballah who brought over their country a conflict which had nothing to do with them.
There are Israelis who thought this war was wrong.
Being right and wrong is a point of view, and people always argue over it.
Anyways, Interesting information Tony, Hurrifan and Gollevainen…everyday there is something new to learn.
phrozenflameAs an Israeli I can’t understand Hizballah’s motives, because they’re wrong. Some Lebanese, mostly in exile, also understand that they’re wrong.
Believe it or not, Gollevainen, but not every Lebanese thinks that Hizballah is the Arab’s world’s shining knight. Many understand that it was Hizballah who brought over their country a conflict which had nothing to do with them.
There are Israelis who thought this war was wrong.
Being right and wrong is a point of view, and people always argue over it.
Anyways, Interesting information Tony, Hurrifan and Gollevainen…everyday there is something new to learn.
phrozenflamehe defeated the British Empire without having to fire a shot.
The British Empire was too weakened and the colonial era was ending, “Globally”, You have to blame hitler for that.
I never denied that oil was part of the reason,
Oh puhleeezzz, I still remember we having a heated discussion on this…
Its alway sgood to see people admiting and facing the reality, in a subtle way 😉
—
Back to the topic as it was intended, 5 years on and things have only gotten worst in my opinion, hatred among differenct countries and religions have only increased, thousands of innocents Americans lost thier lives and thousands more have lost thier lives directly or indirectly…. Sept 11 should not be seen as the start of the conflict, but the reasons that led to it should be seen as those and this is where Bush has made a mistake. The reasons that led to Sept 11 still exist but are now more stronger, violent and extreme, no wonder people hate Bush even after he hase brought “freedom” “justice” and “hope” …Lol…Bush talks like Darth Vader…
phrozenflamehe defeated the British Empire without having to fire a shot.
The British Empire was too weakened and the colonial era was ending, “Globally”, You have to blame hitler for that.
I never denied that oil was part of the reason,
Oh puhleeezzz, I still remember we having a heated discussion on this…
Its alway sgood to see people admiting and facing the reality, in a subtle way 😉
—
Back to the topic as it was intended, 5 years on and things have only gotten worst in my opinion, hatred among differenct countries and religions have only increased, thousands of innocents Americans lost thier lives and thousands more have lost thier lives directly or indirectly…. Sept 11 should not be seen as the start of the conflict, but the reasons that led to it should be seen as those and this is where Bush has made a mistake. The reasons that led to Sept 11 still exist but are now more stronger, violent and extreme, no wonder people hate Bush even after he hase brought “freedom” “justice” and “hope” …Lol…Bush talks like Darth Vader…
phrozenflameIran unveils new fighter jet TEHRAN, Sept 7 (AFP) Iran announced on Thursday it has developed a new war plane — named the “Azarakhsh” (Lightning) — which it describes as similar to the American F-5. On Wednesday, Iran had announced the development of a war plane named “Saegheh” (Thunder), which it described as similar to the American F-18 fighter jet. (Posted @ 17:38 PST)
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Two different Jets here… Where is Azaraksh?
phrozenflameFunny, on how Pakistan could be close to both Iran and the US? :rolleyes:
Whats funny about it, look a little more to the East of Pakistan and you have eevn more funnier example to roll your eyes on.
And I beg to differ with Packard regarding Pakistan and Iran’s Relations. The relations arent that great as they were during the Shah’s time. They’re just you could say above normal, but cmon they arent ‘brotherly’ anymore. Pakistanis dont really ‘trust’ the Iranian Regime. People to People Relations I can say are much better.
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Iran deploys locally made war plane in wargames TEHRAN, Sept 6 (AP) Iran deployed its first locally-manufactured fighter bomber plane on Wednesday during large-scale military exercises, state-run television reported. “The bomber is similar to (the American) F-18 but more powerful. It was designed, optimized and improved by Iranian experts,” the report said, adding that it is capable of launching both rockets and bombs.”
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Its prounciation is very different from what they have written in English, its more like Saa’qah ( صاعقه ), But I’m not sure but any Iranian could clarify this pronounciation.
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