maverik61Not at all. I want you to produce evidence to prove that Wick shot down three Spitfires other than the simple fact he said he did. I have tried to provide evidence to support the fact that no Spitfires were lost that day. Norman Franks (through Fighter Command Losses) and Andy Saunders have provided evidence that no spitfires were lost. All you keep saying is that because Wick claimed them that is the absolute truth and he MUST have shot them down when clearly he didn’t.
regards,
kev35
I know that But Who comfirmed them’ that’s who. who”
no small puzzle is it.who”comfirmed them for him.
tell you what you go and talk behind my back.and try and get at me.
thats what cyber bullys do.your avitar says a lot.
no more please.please.
thank you
terry
terry
maverik61Is anyone else beginning to consider that Maverik61 is in fact nothing more than a troll?
Regards,
kev35
troll what me you have been having a go at me all week…
what do you want me to say’ok we lost no spitfires on 6/11/40
cheers
maverik61I’m guessing English isn’t your first language from your writing, as it’s not easy to understand exactly what you’re getting at?
My take on it is, from Wick’s personality it’s clear he was very much determined to be ‘top dog’ in scoring terms (perhaps by any means), and was desperately trying to catch Molders and Galland.
Molders had ‘claimed’ his 50th on 22nd October, and Galland his 50th on 30th October, so, given these timescales, it’s likely that Wick’s wingman and other’s in his flight may well have ‘supported’ his ‘5 x claims’ on the 6th which would take him to 52, and closer to highest scorer status, but which would perhaps be classed only as a ‘probable’ or ‘damaged’ in RAF claim terminology.
well I cant tell from your lanaguage ”call a kettle a kettle.
chow
maverik61My guess would be……
The 213 and 238 Sqn Hurricanes are the two claims of Sigi Schnell and Assi Hahn, with the two 145 Sqn Hurricanes being half shares between Eric Leie and Helmut Wick as the times are the same for two pairs of Hurricanes.
As for the three Spits…..well, if Spits were in that combat, clearly they were only damaged.
So, it would seem Wick’s total score should really be reduced by 4 on this evidence at least……:confused:
I agree.But what or by who creditit them. ‘Herman Goring.little pun”’
no seriously’ wick must have Had some kind of wittness.
as by the other guy above (wicks combat statement)) says we ”WICK;; we Dived Down on them’ so more than One plane followed wick.
terry
maverik61..Albacore..Swordfish ??!!
Wick downed at least one Mureaux 115 (IIRC) during the French campaign – according to his own account, he was so “ashamed” of shooting down this type that he never filed claims..
Hello’
A new one on me thank you’ Iwill have to get that Book.a french plane.
so thats 2 french he shot at.cheers’ ((I want to shout but think its Rude and with smileys. well thats Daft.))
have you ever considered bein a author.
you know more than them.
cheers
terry.
maverik61if anyone is still interested, here’s my translation of Wick’s subsequent recounting of the day’s events ..just published in Erik Mombeek’s new history of JG 2…
“ It is difficult to describe exactly what happened during the afternoon of 6 November. Perhaps I wasn’t on top form or my nerves let me down? After downing my second English victim I had one thought uppermost in my mind and that was to return home. I had enough fuel for several more minutes yet but I’d had enough for one day. In any case we were almost at the point where we’d have to fly home anyway. As luck would have it, just as we had formed up and swept into a turn that would take us home, I saw three Spitfires below us. They were apparently returning from a patrol over the sea. I spotted them first – before they’d seen us. We fell on them like a flash and the first one went down. Nothing for it but to clench my teeth and get into a position on the tail of a second who also went down after several rapid bursts of fire. There was still one left. By now my cannon were out of rounds so I had closed on this one firing from my machine guns only. A plume of white smoke appeared in an instant, an indicator that his engine was about to catch fire. I got the impression that I must have hit the pilot since he appeared to lose control – flying erratic manoeuvres for brief seconds – before levelling out. I gave him another burst. The Spitfire then tipped over one wing and plunged down into the sea. By now it really was time to high tail it home. Arriving back over the field I thought it prudent to avoid five passes waggling my wings since I was so low on fuel that the engine could have seized at any time. Climbing down from the cockpit I was greeted by my comrades with much hugging and back-slapping..”
Victory claims 6 November 1940
Lt. Siegfried Schnell 4./JG 2 Hurricane E. of Southampton 13h40 19th
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h35 6th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h35 48th
Oblt. Erich Leie Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h37 7th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Hurricane Southampton 15h37 49th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h45 50th
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h46 51st
Major Helmut Wick Stab/JG 2 Spitfire E. of the Isle of Wight 15h48 52nd
Oblt. Hans Hahn Stab III./JG 2 Hurricane E. of Southampton 15h55 22nd
Hello.
at last. a decent answer’
thank you very much that’s best info ever . i’ll get the Book”
cheer”’s
terry.
maverik61Like I said earlier, has anyone been able to check Luftwaffe losses for the day? Perhaps Wick shot down three 109’s in error? Stranger things have happened.
Regards,
kev35
kev what me 109 units were they then??
terry
maverik61But Maverik you can’t go without telling us more about the Swordfish he claimed. What dates and units were they from?
Regards,
kev35
Hi.
kev
they were not swordfishes from what I have albercores’ as another type.they operated in may 40′ briefly.
you need more than serial numbers and decriptions than proof.
serial numbers dont count.
ask any author.
terry
maverik61It really is not an enigma. Just simple over-claiming.
cheers bye.
maverik61Actually,if you read Gallands “first and Last” he says they never lost the Battle of Britain as there wasn’t a Battle of Britain,it was just seen a another stage of the war.
It was something used by the allies.
yes thats right but Galland himself had uncomfirmed planes too.then those 3 spits wick claimed on 6/11 were the same.uncomfirmed ‘
also to Barrage Balloons were victories too.wick claimed 2 in august 40′
yet most pilots didn’t had them to there scores.well in ww1 they counted.
terry
maverik61Rob Greinert has been given a very bad press, but as Elliot and Mark have pointed out, this slightly redresses things:
http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegrap…001021,00.html
A few years ago I saw extracts from the CILHI report after a team visited the P-47 crash site (twice I think?) when the wreckage was in situ. It made clear that no trace of the pilot, Lutes, was extant on site – either in the aircraft or nearby. It was concluded that he had either survived and walked off into the jungle and been lost, or else had been taken away from the site and died elsewhere. The possibility of wild animals having some part to play was also suggested as I recall. Either way, his remains were not associated with the aircraft or immediate crash site. Period.
Unfortunately the truth is not such a good story as “grave robbery”.
BUT only if he has His Name on the planes’ V5 owners car Log book.”
joke’
terry
maverik61As to Battle of Britain film as we have techno today maybe we could retouch it.photo print ways. not difficult.
But you see The BoB film was on a budget.it lost nearly most on first day.
weather’ was the blame. the workers still got paid.
the air Fight scenes were great. I admit’ but mostly just Bombers fights how many were fighters vs fighters I know there were at the End.
but only ! in middle with Robert shaws flight. and m caines too.
but a great film.lots of mistakes.
ps i was in it too at the end as a kid under ground scenes.
terry
as we are in a very Bad depression lately maybe we could remake it again.
this i would most like to be redone.
terry
maverik61There’s a similar problem in ‘Piece Of Cake’. The Heinkel shootdown scenes were filmed in the USA and if you look at the landscape below you’ll see it’s very ‘un French’.
I went to DX nearly every day when they were filming ‘Memphis Belle’ and an early concern from the film makers was the amount of oil seed rape fields that were in bright yellow bloom during the allotted filming slot. Oil seed wasn’t grown during the war, however mustard, with a similar appearance, was, particularly in Norfolk. I seem to remember that most of the ariel filming was carried out over Southwold because there weren’t so many oil seed crops over that part of Suffolk. Mind you, if they were that concerned, they could have put the filming slot back a couple of weeks and the problem would have gone, I noticed that the crop across the other side of the runway at DX Spring Airshow was beginning to fade.
It’s a pity that so many of the so called French scenes in BoB were so obviously filmed in Spain, the frigging great mountain in the background when Goering arrives in Calais was one particular example, perhaps one day it will be re-mastered in CGI, no, throw up hands in horror, it would never be the same.
As to Battle of Britain film as we have techno today maybe we could retouch it.photo print ways. not difficult.
But you see The BoB film was on a budget.it lost nearly most on first day.
weather’ was the blame. the workers still got paid.
the air Fight scenes were great. I admit’ but mostly just Bombers fights how many were fighters vs fighters I know there were at the End.
but only ! in middle with Robert shaws flight. and m caines too.
but a great film.lots of mistakes.
ps i was in it too at the end as a kid under ground scenes.
terry
maverik61Ed. Russells me 109 flown by one hans j marseille 1940′
shot down 1 spitfire 5 /9/40. in combat the german ace ran out of fuel crash landed on Beach off coast recovered then Done up. to be sent to Russia Jg 5 again shot down crash landed left there to 1988. found then recovered.
terry
i have photograpth of this plane in a well Bad state. intact when found in the snow in Russia.
terry
maverik61Ed. Russells me 109 flown by one hans j marseille 1940′
shot down 1 spitfire 5 /9/40. in combat the german ace ran out of fuel crash landed on Beach off coast recovered then Done up. to be sent to Russia Jg 5 again shot down crash landed left there to 1988. found then recovered.
terry
I have a very nice television interview with Ed Russell in 2000 made for Battle of Britain anversary……….on this me 109 .
terry
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