Hello
I donot know if its the same Messerschmitt in the book calledThe reluctant Messerschmitt by Don Everson
First published in 1978.Published by Portcullis press Ltd
Surry
ISBN 0-86108-018-1
YES I HAVE THE SUN NEWS PAPER WITH IT IN THE CENTRE THATS NEW TO ME 1978. NOW ALL I SEE HIS SOME POP STARS.RUBBISH.
Four Hurricanes on the 6th so that doesn’t help you either. according to Fighter Command losses three of the pilots were killed with one possibly safe.
Spitfire? Hurricane? In the intense atmosphere of a dogfight surely it was a simple matter to mistakenly identify one type as the other?
Regards,
kev35
MISTAKES.I made.forget this post.
in a way your right why? it was 4.pm uk time german time 17.00 hrs
pretty dark going.so i guess ill never know.
I know sgt Klein was missing i presumed he was shot down by E Marrs
as he saw a me 109 shoot another pilot down he ‘marrs avenged him
he claimed the messer blew up. by his fire’
yet no other german was lost apart from wicks?
terry
MY MISTAKE THIS WAS OVER LIGHTS FROM WICKS LAST FLIGHT.
SORRY…….
one must assume that D Dundas was killed by Rudi Pflatz. maybe E Marrs was also shootin from long Range.he said the me 109 blew up. wicks plane was sorta blew up but!!! so was D Dundas and sgt Klein in same aera too.
terry
MISTAKE’
SORRY
terry
This was my translation of his account. Slightly different, but the same combat:
“Today we had a terrific time again. We meet a heap of Hurricanes which fly lower than we do. I am just getting ready to attack when I notice something above me and I immediately shout over the intercom “Attention! Spitfires above us!” But they were so far away that I could begin with the attack on the Hurricanes. They were just turning away from their original course and that sealed their fate. Almost simultaneously the four of us fired at their formation. One went on my account. The rest of the Hurricanes moved away, but then pulled up to a higher altitude. During this manoevre I once again caught the one on the right hand side outside. He was done for immediately, and went straight down! Now I can’t say what it was that was the matter with me on this day, November 6. I wasn’t sure if I wasn’t well or if it was my nerves which were about to break. When my second Englishman was lying down below I just wanted to go home.
I would have had enough fuel for a few more minutes, but the urge to go home completely overwhelmed me. Also, to justify myself – if that is at all necessary – there wasn’t much I could do with the few minutes I had left in reserve. As we began to turn away and we are holding the course for home I see below me three Spitfires. I am the first to see them and attack immediately. Already the first one falls! But now I say to myself “Go for the others!” – if I let the other two get away they will probably shoot down my comrades tomorrow!”
thanks. my account was short of his Combat Report.
I read over years so many differnt reports.through.
yours was another.I got this my report from a Book By Harleyfords messerschmitt famous fighter……and another book Exstracts. I cant recall.
terry
[QUOTE=trumper;1413604]I would imagine they could’ve claimed each others aircraft by mistake not realising that someone else had already had a pop at it and claimed it.
One damaged aircraft wobbling through the battle zone could have been seen and pot shot at by a few,all thinking “they” were the ones to get it.
Not to mention a bit of imaginative claiming as well.[Qute
yeh’ but what about wittness’ He must have got.as was compulsary’
he claimed them.to his score…
terry
Having looked at a photostream on Flickr that was posted in the recent Buchon thread, I noticed something very odd about the aircraft in this picture:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sushidel/45628913/sizes/l/in/set-1182766/
What appears to be a late-model Spitfire (IX or XVI), possibly in the markings of “Squadron Leader Skipper”, but with the older-style 2-into-1 exhaust stubs.
My first thought was replica, but I don’t think it is.
Anyone else….?
:confused:
As my Grandad worked on the film. there were repro’s made for blowing up.
it looks like a mk VB… as hurricanes some flew but you dont see many fights with so many hurricanes in the film. at end in back ground you’ll see me 109’s as pretending to be hurricanes.
the big fight 15.9
terry
You simply fired at a fleeting glimps of a shape on an aircraft that was not familiar to you. Spitfire or Hurricane, it would not have been easy to see in maybe 3-5 second engagement.
thank you all.
this was His Combat report’ after Returning from southamton..
I saw the spitfires first”
I attacked 1st spitfire I attacked him’ he went down.
from Wicks report on last spitfire’ he shot down. after the 2rd?? spitfire went down BURNING” I attacked 3rd ”I dont know what was wrong with me.? ”prob ”tiredness from air Battles summer) I attacked him my cannons were used up so I used machine guns the tommy pilot was hit as he sort of wobbled out of control…….
he then recovered I was forced to attack again’ down he went to crash into ground? sea.
terry
There used to be a nice 1/48th kit from HobbyCraft, with options for a Spanish-marked aircraft and a Battle of Britain aircraft.
The kit was really nice – I built three of them, but don’t have any left! 🙁
There was a nice little 1/72th kit available a few years ago – nice, but lacking some details.
wilco’ cheers i’ll Look out for these kits.
terry
Buckhorns model kits
talkin of Buckhorns any models makers brands.kits.
i never found any.
terry
Listed as two Hurricanes and one Spitfire here – though the site has several noticeable ‘typos’ ….
cheers very much you know what wrong Dates 6/11/40. my mistake’s
but thanks the same.
can you still help”
terry
Yes the attitudes displayed over “remains” are very interesting, and you are entitled to a “view”, however its certainly not one I share, and in fact find it somewhat offensive.
I’m sorry if I am mis-representing or mis-interpreting your “view” below, but it is based on the impression I get of your “crude” approach, “logic” and “view” expressed in your post above?
You are entitled to choose to donate your remains to science, the school heating boiler, or the local pet food processor if you wish, however you dont have a right to determine the appropriate or acceptable treatment of someone elses remains, or apply your own “crude” approach and “logic” to them.
If someone “chooses” to be cremated and have their remains scattered at a pre-determined location selected by them or their family, that does’nt set a precident or “attitude” that allows your logic and “crude” approach to condone a wreck “recoverer” to arrive, shovel up the “bunch of crumpled bones” place them in the camp fire, and then spread them around the surrounding bush, while speaking the “lords prayer”! all at his choice and discretion, before dragging off his “treasure find”.
While some wrecks are the last surviving examples of their type and sought by National and public museums to fill an extinct place in International Preservation for future generations, most are simply “financial” or “enthusiast” opportunities for someone, and neither of those “values” should be placed above the “value” of the human lives and remains involved in the wreck.
We can respect the machine and its remains, but not without first respecting the human remains.
The “rebuilt” aircraft is not the “living thing”, the dead crew were the “living things” – its akin to lamenting the recent loss of a crashed vintage Tigermoth or warbird, but considering its pilot was more easily replacable? and therefore less or even “un” important?, an extension of your logic and “crude” approach would seem to be condoning restorers to be rushing in to claim the still smouldering remains (of an aircraft) for urgent rebuild or re-use, while pushing the corpse crudely out of their way? and telling the family and friends “at least the aircraft will be rebuilt and living”!
Given you have apparantly lost some friends in aircraft crashes I do wonder if you have a different attitude and view to those pilots and their wrecks, than the anonomous crews of older wartime wrecks?
I personally think we should recognise the significance of “fatality” wrecks, and not treat them as simply a pile of spare parts for wreckology or museum collections, Ebay sales, or other restorations and data plate rebuilds – that may limit, complicate or simply slow the recovery of some airframes or wrecks- but so be it!, I have voiced this position in other KP posts and threads regarding UK Defence permits for “digs” by “wreckologists”.
It is a reasonable compromise to allow the MIA inspection and recovery of a “bunch of crumpled bones” process to do its work and declare the wreck clear of remains and available for salvage, far better than simply a “crude” approach.
I understand a number of wreck recoverers in remote areas undertake their own serious inspection and recovery processes and return the remains to the MIA authorities, and perhaps there should be a formal training and accreditation process to permit those proffessional recoverers to undertake such work formally? on behalf of the authorities?
I have read the article that launched this thread, and am dis-appointed the authors have focused on a couple of individuals, including using them in the headline photos, without seemingly getting their approval or giving them the right to reply or be interviewed for their position on the general “accusations” made in the article.
Again, I’m sorry if I am mis-representing or mis-interpreting your view above, but it is based on the impression I get of your “crude” approach , “logic” and “view” expressed in your post above?
regards
Mark Pilkington
on a Note a jap zero or oscar fighter was found in jungles some years ago.
they recovered it.for Display.near by”’ what they knew was it was a WAR GRAVE”’ the pilots was still there.somewere”in ashes that they fondly walked over him. but choose to recover the tailend .that was left.wings too..
talk of walkin over the Dead’
terry
The only thing I have on the accident is that owner Bill Harrison rebuilt the aircraft following acquisition from the Victory Air Museum (where several other BoB veteran Buchons ended up) and registered it as N41857(?) and flew it for over 50hrs before ground-looping at the end of a landing run, ripping off the undercarriage in the process.
Robs Lamplough eventually acquired the Buchon in 1978, having it rebuilt to fly before another accident in the UK. The rest is as above.
As far as flying goes, I don’t think the Cavanaugh Museum fly it due to insurance reasons – although I’m happy to be proven wrong.
The Buchon also appeared in the HBO TV movie, The Tuskegee Airmen.
cheers for picture
terry
Hmm, I think you are right. The hangar photos with the destruction confirm that. 🙁
Read Film Battle of Britain 1969 makin of mentions a buckhorn that ground looped.
terry
I do love G-HUNN in her early-style Bf109E scheme that she wore for Piece of Cake. 🙂
was this plane in film ‘Battle Of Britain” my grandad worked on this film and I was in the film too small part at the very end as a kid.
terry