Krivakapa@mig-31bm
Becuase Ancic (book writer) wasn’t radar operator on P-18 radar, nor he was in command trailer when P-18 operator reported he have weak returns on +50 or +60km distance (Zoltan said 60-70km) so he asked to turn off radar because they returns they have are far away. P-18 would be use for short period same as P-15, because of HARM.
@RALL
Zoltan didn’t modified nothing, he admit that couple years ago. They lost lock because it is S-125, I don’t know how familiar you are with it but that is prehistoric system, no fancy computers, it is hard even to track normal rcs not VLO rcs. Also they feared HARM attack so they had time interval in which they need to do whole procedure (21 sec, I think) if it longer they turn off fire control radar, wait and start again.
KrivakapaBook is this:
http://www.lektire.me/prepricano/djordje-anicic-smena_945
B-2 and radar modification is very fishy self promoting stories (Zoltan tried promoted himself with story of radar mods, and Ancic with story about B-2) but what happen 27.03.1999 is written as it happened, that is confirmed by others also.
There is problem, he mentioned 23km but some other members of battery mentioned +50km, so I will try to find out which radar and what distance. IMO, P-18 was probable +50km, then P-15 was +23km (becuase that is procedure, P-15 is target acquisition radar of S-125 system (later upgraded to P-15M and P-19).
BTW F-117 isn’t 0.001m2 it was during early pole measurement (compete with XST) but that was with early RAM (or maybe without RAM at all?), RAM was improved trough service so RCS is very likely smaller probable lot smaller maybe 0.0001m2?
Krivakapa@mig-31bm
All sources I can find about the incident said they used the P-18 to detect/track the F-117, I have seen the interview but I don’t think they mentioned the system used is P-15. So if you have some contrary evidence please show.
http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-S-125-Neva.html
P-15 is part of S-125 system. P-18 isn’t. P-15 is target acquisition radar, SNR-125 is missile guidance radar(X-band radar), SNR-125 locked F-117 for more then 15km, info about that is book written by member of SAM crew which was there when F-117 was downed.
So no way P-18 could be used to down F-117 and I don’t see why folks constant mentioning VHF radars. They don’t guide missiles, they could only guide fighters on VLO targets. This is very important for Russia or China but for weaker countries it isn’t.
Krivakapa@mig-31bm
Pay attention, RCS is – 18dBsm in frontal arcs between 0.4-2Ghz. F-117 was tracked by P-18 which operate in VHF aka 30-300 Mhz.
This is common myth. Radar which first detect was P-15 and then with second radar which guide missiles (SNR-125). This is what SAM crew members confirm couple times and this is logical if you check how S-125 works.
Krivakapa@Spud
I wasn’t talking about big long wave radars, but about S-400 radars, they are X-band and maybe S-band (didn’t check). And yes this isn’t 1990s but AN/TPS-70 was 1970s radar made by late 1960s tech so in 1990s it was old tech and it need ONE hour to move, we reduce that a lot but same thing apply for S-300/400 mobile radars, 15 minutes is average time but in case of war with good crew it could done lot faster.
@mig-31bm
-18dBsm without RAM, but yet it was tracked with S-125 from +20km (SNR-125 radar), one crew member even mentioned +50km, he was operator of P-15 radar in tv interview. I wouldn’t mentioned what Zoltan said becuase his statements aren’t back up by other members of battery (he said they tracked F-117 while it was still in Bosnia).
Krivakapa@Spud
Besides, if an F-35 wanted to kill the main radar of an S-400, it would drop loads of LO standoff munitions backed up by a heavy, coordinated EM attack that would all kick off well outside the S-400’s detection range that you stated (eg 30-60km).
You need to locate radar first which is problematic with LPI mode it have and high mobility, even non mobile PESA radars without LPI mode are problematic, during 1999 bombing of FRY, NATO found only one of our four AN/TPS-70 radars. And we used them a lot, we relocate them lot faster than what is norm (one hour with six man) but not as fast as you can relocate mobile radar.
@RALL
If F-35 is untouchable from S-300/400 it would kill them without problems as some here are writing so no danger to F-15/16. So why bitching about S-300 if Israel have F-35?
Krivakapa@RALL
IF S-400 detect F-35 that is only one step, how will old Syrian SAMs down it? Their newest SAM is BUK but it lack powerful radar, also how many BUK they have? But if S-400 isn’t problem why Israel doesn’t want Syria to get S-300? It look like waste of money if F-35 can’t be detected even with S-400.
KrivakapaCan you elaborate what you mean by this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novator_KS-172 There are sources that say this missile exists with said 400km range.
Old project probable in mock-up stage which offer to India but nothing happen. Also KS-172 was nonsense when R-37 existed even in 1990s. They did fire tests of R-37 in 1990s.
KS-172 is totally irrelevant today.
KrivakapaAAM-4B is in service for 8 years. So you can’t compare them, when and if R-77M aesa became operational then you can, but Japs will upgrade its seeker so I doubt seeker in next decade will be same as one from 2010. Same for meteor with japan’s seeker.
And I really doubt R-77M is primary weapon of Su-57. My bet is on Izd.810 missile which is upgrade od R-37M. It is big enough to carry much more powerful seeker and big warhead, which is very important in stealth era.
KrivakapaAIM-120D would have dual pulse engine but it was canceled so 50% better range then latest C versions was probable for dual pulse version.
KrivakapaIt have more similar concept with PAK-FA then with F-35 or F-22.
For example engines are spaced and intake doesn’t have long S-duct, one or maybe two central weapon bays, tail sting with some sensor, some sensors in wing edge.
Krivakapa@RALL
Rafale price for India, and that is from much smaller order, was something close to 250millions (in article were they compare FGFA and Rafale). So that is total deal price. Su-57 will cost lot less Russia as Rafale cost lot less France then what India need to pay. Difference between full export price and domestic fly away price.
BTW 70million for airplane isn’t cheap at all at least for Russian AF. They pay much less new Flankers, price is somewhere between 30-40 millions depend on variant they are buying.
Krivakapa@FBW
Maybe they are using coatings? But still FLIR isn’t present to radar when it isn’t in use. And I am not Russian, nor Russia stronk type, if you check my posts you will see how many times I correct KGB with “Su-57 intake = F-23 intake” idea, so I don’t think Su-57 is the best stealth but it is good enough to make F-22/35 problems.
Krivakapa@AJ
See the screen?
Screen for FLIR? It was removed later becuase composite RAM backside was enough plus it had impact on picture quality
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/f-117anighthawk-lockheedsstealthfighterusa-150326012628-conversion-gate01/95/f-117-a-nighthawk-lockheeds-stealth-fighter-usa-4-638.jpg?cb=1427351223
The YF-23 was an initial protoype and would most certainly have changed in design during development. Nobody ever said it had a better frontal RCS specifically than the YF-22, just that it was better overall which can be seen clearly by it’s way more highly canted sides and hidden exhaust. The F-22’s canopy leading edge is different to the YF-22’s.
Northrop didn’t think it have big impact on frontal RCS of F-23, because pole model and F-23EMD have divaded canopy with metal bar.
All you mentioned as small imperfections which could make Su-57 detectable for longer distance then F-22 but still that distance is very deadly when you need to deal with Su-57 no matter in what fighter is agianst Su-57. F-22 would be best pick agianst Su-57 but it lacks IRST.
Krivakapa@ActionJackson
Your analyse is nice but you forget one important thing and that is F-117:
https://tvrphoto.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/silver_stealth06_f117_798_0972.jpg
Many negatives you wrote about Su-57 you can see on F-117 even OLS problem is there, that thing below canopy is FLIR when it isn’t in use it would rotate and backside is made as RAS RAM combo, something like that is also mentioned for OLS-50 in patent I think. If you compare that with F-35 front DAS sensor and EOTS you don’t have that luxury they need to rely only on glass film coat to reduce return of their optical system and I doubt it is better then RAS RAM combo.
If you think Su-57 canopy is mass because of metal frame bar and “poorly” design backside well:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/upfiles/10515/8262480959A64B24B9F4915B1C8D2EC6.jpg
So yes Su-57 have some imperfections but it is far more dangerous then what folks thought in 2010, back then people thought it would have exposed fan blades and non stealth nozzles, now we know it isn’t case, we saw new nozzle and new engine will have some kind of radar blocker. That is lot more important then some smaller fixes on airframe but to be honest I would love to see they fix them too becuase it isn’t something impossible to be done.
Sign In
