maurobaggioEmbraer and Saab Establish Partnership for Joint Programme Management for Brazil’s F-X2 Project
The implementation of the partnership for joint programme management between Saab and Embraer is subject to the F-X2 contracts between Saab and COMAER (Brazilian Air Force Command) becoming effective. The contract between Saab and COMAER for Gripen NG and the associated industrial co-operation contract will come into effect once certain conditions have been fulfilled. These conditions are expected to be fulfilled during the first half of 2015.
Maybe I am really stupid because while the Saab and Embraer has been mention a US$ 5.4 billion contract from 36 Gripen NG, the Brazil’s Air Force has been mentioned that would be only US$ 4.6 billion from the same 36 Gripen NG.
However if I’m not as stupid as I guess, maybe someone will run out of US$ 800 million in this contract from 36 Gripen NG, at least if there are any appreciation of the currency from Sweden.
However I guess that everyone should wait for the value of the financing of this contract, since Brazil will start to pay for the 36 Gripen NG only in 2024 and it would take almost 14 year to pay this loan.
How I do not know about any loan without bank interest rates, so I think the US$ 5.4 billion would be cheap so far.
After all the Gripen NG are good news for Brazil, once the Brazil has been recently abandoned the project with Ukraine for the development of launch satellite rocket called Cyclone IV after had been investing almost US$ 1 billion in this project.
maurobaggioI would’ve settled for FMS sales of F/A-18 E/Fs happily as well. Anything to arrest and hopefully end, what was now widely considered as a tragicomic farce of a competition.
And as far as costs go- seeing what Brazil is paying for Gripen NGs and to be able to design some rather piddling new features for the NG and the ability to design a twin seater ( which may be great for Brazil which has no such experience, but its no big deal for India) the Rafale F3 truly does seem like an affordable purchase when comparing actual bang vs buck.
So please do excuse me if I express my profound relief and happiness that Rafale will sport Indian colours and enter IAF service as I had hoped nearly 10 years ago when the revamped MRCA competition began.
The MMRCA programs from India and the F/X2 program has been keeping much in common as: 100% ToT, production in their respective countries, as well as the long gestation period of the agreements.
However, the result were quite different in the both competitions, them about the Rafale F3 would be possible to make certain comparisons:
| width: 500 | class: grid | align: center |
|---|---|---|
| [tr] | ||
| [td]Country[/td] | ||
| [td]Brazil[/td] | ||
| [td]India[/td] | ||
| [/tr] | ||
| [tr] | ||
| [td]Figther[/td] | ||
| [td]Rafale F3[/td] | ||
| [td]Rafale F3[/td] | ||
| [/tr] | ||
| [tr] | ||
| [td]Year[/td] | ||
| [td]2013[/td] | ||
| [td]2015[/td] | ||
| [/tr] | ||
| [tr] | ||
| [td]Number[/td] | ||
| [td]36[/td] | ||
| [td]36[/td] | ||
| [/tr] | ||
| [tr] | ||
| [td]Cost($ billion)[/td] | ||
| [td]7 | 4[/td] | |
| [td]4 | 3[/td] | |
| [/tr] |
Thus it could be possible now to observe that 100% transfer of technology and the local production has been a considerable impact on the cost from the fighters, and in this case it is not only in the case of India, but also in the case of Brazil too.
So from this purchase of 36 Rafale F3 by India it could be possible to analyze the cost/benefit from locally produce the Rafale F3 or purchase this directly from France.
I guess that India could achieve the transfer of technology from France without replicating the costs of a second production line in India for the Rafale F3, since that India has been working in several other fighters projects.
By the way I do not want to encourage any ‘endless’ intellectual debate, after all I have been already accused of polluting this forum.
maurobaggioI look forward to Easter being that maurobaggio will no longer pollute this thread. And for sure there will never be a moment I look back to missing anything posted by him other than his promise it was his last reply at keypublishing. 🙂
Until the NG airframe flies in production form it’s all just a promise. The F-35 already has more LRIP production than any other stealth jet since the F-117A. That’s remarkable. When the NG reaches 100 airframes I will give it credit, too.
In fact I should be polluting this forum, after all since my last post I think have been found over 20 computer virus so far, in addition at least one that has not yet been possible to carry out with the anti virus software . Maybe the company’s from this anti virus will give my name at this virus, after all I think I was the first to find it this new specie.
However I have been found out many others problems since the eliminations of this computers virus, because it has been this increasingly complicated to change the password just here in this forum and the e-mail count, as to the password for my email account has been changed , beyond what all the means you have to access this forum has been giving errors.
I will not be detailing everything that has been happening because I have little knowledge on the subject, after the the first hacker that happened in my computer occurred recently in 1996.
In fact I’m just sharing my information’s, once it’s better to warn that because someone could be infected by a new computer virus without know about it like myself.
I agree with your opinion, however I think it would not be necessary to reach 100 aircraft’s, after all the Gripen NG has been improved from a fighter highly proven.
I was ‘touched’ by your desire for a gift from Easter, after all problems that I have encountered to reach this point, I decided that my probable last post would be to reply for you.
maurobaggioNobody is interested in your conspiracy theories.
You are completely right, after all I did not create any conspiracy theory. However if you know about anything please enlighten me.
I almost given up to reply from this thread because I had changed my password without Known nothing about it. And worst I almost could not create another password, once in my e-mail count the link had been supplied for the webmaster were changed for another page than the correct, I taken a lot of time to reach at this point.
So you can feel honored , once you could be the last person that I will reply in this forum. This is something that you can tell for your grandchildrens.
Brazil’s Gripen contract is 39.3 billion kronor. The exact value, to the cent, is available at one of Brazil’s own government site somewhere. That amount, in October 2014 was equivalent to US$5.4 billion but today it’s about $4.55 billion. But the US$ amount is irrelevant anyway, because the contract is in kronor, not dollar.
No doubt you will start looking at the SEK-BRL exchange rate, but let me repeat, no one cares for your conspiracy theory. There is no conspiracy. The amount is out there in the open for anyone who cares to see. The conspiracy exists only in your mind.
Interesting its approach about this matter, still I think that you could elaborate better this explanation, once I have seem some small details that can derail this as:
What the Finnish authorities are looking at are technical data, and that’s the secret part, as it should be.
About the technical secrets of the Gripen NG has been revealed to Finland authorities, indeed this fact has been seems a bit strange, after all if the secrets has been revealed for all possible customers from Gripen NG, then those classified informations should not be considered as secret anymore, because as soon the half of the planet should already know about those secrets.
By the way if something has been keeping in secret it does not necessarily it make this better, after all secrets has been even used to denial access for depreciate information about aircraft’s. A good example could be the secrets of the MiG 25, since that after the MiG 25 had been landing in Japan in 1976 , this were classified after this as less advanced fighter than it were classified before this defection.
So in your opinion the secrets from Gripen NG has been making this fighter better than it has been released by SAAB for the common public?
maurobaggioGripen ng classified information made available for Finnish representatives.
You’re quite right about showing some classified information’s for potential customers, and the first important classified information at this point should be the about the cost of the Gripen NG.
In the case of Switzerland it has been published this classified information, once the Government of Switzerland had been request for approval the purchase of the Gripen NG in a referendum.
For the Switzerland this classified information about the Gripen E has been evaluating the same at almost US $ 150 million per unit since 2013.
In the case of Finland I have no idea about the value of this, after all so far it should be a classified information.
As far I know the cost of the Gripen NG has been keeping as classified information for several reasons. Indeed the value of the contract of the Gripen NG has been revealed for the press only after the same were signed for both parts as example of the Brazil, once that only in the day of the the contract were signed the value of the same were revealed from the decoy of the US$ 4.5 billions at the correct of the US$ 5.4 billions so far.
I guess that classified information’s of the Gripen NG has been keeping safely away from envious glances, after all I think that in the case of Brazil even the NSA had not managed to get the same.
If the NSA had been accomplished to get the value of the Gripen NG in Sweden, maybe the NSA would have not spied the President of Brazil as it were revealed in the world press.
By the way someone could explain to me what it means to be troll.
maurobaggioI think I read recently that India envisaged spending the equivalent of US$20-30 billion on FGFA (sorry, don’t remember the source). As far as I can understand, Russia is a long way towards completing T-50 airframe development. Apart from developing a 2 seat version, what real airframe development work is left for India?
About the hardware from T 50 I guess that should still a lot of work that must to be done before that fighter to reach the production phase, just as example the T 50 or FGFA will be equipped with a new engine that will replace the Al 41 from the T 50 prototypes.
It should be mention that continued development from all others T 50 or FGFA subsystems as well as the RAM material from airframe, after all that work will continue as long as the aircraft’s has been keeping in production in the future versions to improve the same.
However I guess that the greatest contribution from India for the T 50 will come from the software development, once the 5th Generation would be quite dependent from its software to accomplish its missions , as example the data fusion capability.
After all in the 5th Generation fighters it has been expected that computer network from those fighters should not only capable to process and present the information for the pilot, but also would be capable to make decisions as a second crew member. Maybe those decisions could not be too clever, but at least would be quick.
As India has been creating a strong capabilities in the software development field, perhaps the greatest interests from Russia were not only split the development cost with India, but to incorporate this capabilities from India into T 50, once the software development will also continue even with more speed than the hardware development from T 50 or FGFA.
maurobaggioI guess that in 2007 while it had been appeared the first prototype of the Su 35S there were an expectation that very soon would come up the two seaters of the Su 35S , once it could replace the Su 30MK in the next years.
After the own Russia has been decided to buy the Su 30M2, those rumors had definitely ended about such two-seaters development from Su 35S.
Maybe there are some proposals about the Super 30 that it could replace the legacy engines AL 31 from Su 30MKI by the new engines AL 41 from Su 35S.
maurobaggioNo it wasnt. No Sukhoi aircraf was ever declared winner of any FAB competition, either the FX or the FX2.
The Brazil Air Force had declared the Su 35M as winner in 2002 in its evaluation F/X , however this did not mean that it would be same that could be chosen by the President of Brazil, since the evaluations of the Air Force of Brazil were only advisory. Indeed the next elected President of Brazil in 2003 had cancelled the competition because the same it were not a priority.
Likewise the Gripen NG in 2009, once it was put as winner by the Brazil Air Force among the others candidates (F/A 18E / F and Rafale F3), but this report from Brazil Air Force were ignored by the former President of Brazil, since the same had opted by the Rafale F3 in 2009. However the deal were not signed because some divergences with France, in reason of the same were not supported the nuclear deal with Iran in 2010.
Then the next President that had made the first option for the F/A 18E/F in 2012, but after the same had discovered thought the international press that has been watching by the NSA, the Gripen NG were chosen as winner in 2013.
The main problem should be that competition in Brazil had accumulated almost 18 years from facts, and in this time there were several political changes as well as winners from several aspects as : Su 35M, Rafale F3, F/A 18 E/F and Gripen NG.
The first competition F / X were cancelled in 2003, and this were replaced by the F/X 2 in 2005, though the last decision of this were announced in 2013 and the contract were signed in 2014.
Then the first Gripen NG will arrive to Brazil only in 2019.
I guess this is a world record, after all will be almost 24 years between to start the competition and then to receive the first new fighters.
Maybe another world record should be the fact that after the Mirage IIIE were deactivated in 2005 after 30 years from service, but as the F/X were cancelled the Brazil had received in 2005 and already deactivated in 2013 the second hand Mirage 2000, and now in 2016 will receive the second hand Gripen C / D until the Gripen NG could be declared as operational.
maurobaggioDespite all the interest to talk about some possibilities that India could have been opted by the the Rafale M or the F/A 18E/F around 2000, the reality of the facts could shows something different in the past, once among several facts should be noted that France sold the R 99 Foch to Brazil for a symbolic price of US$ 12 million at this time.
Without the Foch or another second hand aircraft carrier available to India with CATOBAR(Catapult-assisted take-off but arrested-recovery) design or even the STOBAR(Short take-off but arrested-recovery) design, just to remember at this time the China had been acquired the unfinished Varyag from Ukranie , then some options should be to build a new aircraft carrier with CATOBAR or STOBAR designs, or then to acquire the Gorshkov from Russia and to convert this into an aircraft carrier.
Any way to build an aircraft carrier has been described as a long-term and high-cost program even for countries that had already expertise in this issue, so in the case of India at this time if it had been chosen to build a new aircraft carrier most likely this would be done in India.
In this case besides the high cost of this new aircraft carrier class, another problem that should be added at this highly complex program would be the investment and time required to enable a shipyard in India to carry on the construction as well as the design process of the same.
The conversion of Gorshkov into R 33 Vikramaditya was costly indeed, however it were quite extensive too, after the all the Gorshkov had never been serviced as aircraft carrier with STOBAR design, indeed in the same it were never classified even as aircraft carrier in the Soviet Navy.
In reason of the Gorshkov was a ‘big boat’, it could have been converted into an aircraft carrier with CATOBAR or STOBAR designs.
The option by India with STOBAR designs were quite logical and with less risks, since Indian Navy has been using Aircraft Carrier for long time with ski-jump ramp for the V/STOL fighters like the Sea Harrier, thus this option could have been avoid more costs and even risks of delays in this conversion to a new CATOBAR design, after all the Russia has never built an aircraft carrier with CATOBAR design as well as the STOBAR design to be quite literally, after all the Kuznetsov Class were build in Ukraine.
The option of India by the second generation of the MiG 29K were also logical, since that first generation of the MiG 29K had been started the development process to operate on board from aircraft carriers with STOBAR design since the end of the 80’s in the former Soviet Union.
In this case if India would have opted for the F/A 18E / F or Rafale M, despite of those fighter could be capable to operate in the STOBAR desing, any way both should be tested to qualify the same in the STOBAR system. In this case both the Rafale M as the F/A 18E/F should have been tested on board of the Kuznetsov Aircraft Carrier from Russian Navy.
Otherwise it would be necessary to await the R 33 Vikramaditya would be finished before to start the trials , once the F/A 18 E/F and the Rafale M has not been operating with STOBAR system in any Navies, so only after the tests would have been completed it should be possible to declare that it would not necessary any modification in those fighters, and then to start the full production.
With the knowledge that has been accumulated with the R 33 Vikramaditya the Indian Navy could be capable today to develop its new aircraft carrier with independently from another sources, as well as the fighters that will be on board of this new aircraft carrier class with: CATOBAR, STOBAR or even equipped with news STOVL( short take-off and vertical-landing ) fighters.
maurobaggioThey can buy su-35’s instead it’s obviously more safe for GB hehe , since Gripen is the most dangerous thing out there :love-struck:.
It would be interesting to see what could have happen if Argentina sent a RFP for the Su 35E at the Russia.
Just to remember the Su 35M2 on 2002 had been declared the winner of the first competition in Brazil, and in this time the Gripen C / D as well as the Mirage 2000 and F 16C / D were in this competition too.
Besides the Brazil that had chosen the Su 35M2 rather the Gripen C / D, the same happened with Chile at this time also opted by F 16C/D instead the Gripen C/D.
This first competition in Brazil had been discharged by the new elected government in 2003, and in reason of that it was started a new competition only in 2005.
In this second competition in Brazil the Su 35E had been excluded from it because the Russia not agreed to make 100% ToT for it were requested by Brazil , once for Russia to accept those conditions as the 100% ToT the amount of fighters should be at least 100 than just only 36 fighters.
As far I Know there aren’t even a single Gripen A/B/C/D in operation today throughout the whole America (North, Central, South), perhaps only from 2016 the second hand Gripen C / D will arrive for Brazil until the Gripen NG would become operational . While the Su 30MKV has been operating in Venezuela for years as well as the F 16 C/D from Chile.
I have my doubts if 8 Gripen C / D will represent the most dangerous fighter in South America until 2019, after all the Peru has the MiG 29 equipped with R 77 missiles, along with Chile with its F 16C / D equipped with AIM 120 as well as the Su 30 MKV in Venezuela.
It’s quite possible that the Gripen NG will conquer this position in South America from 2019, however how long it will be capable to hold this position could be a good question …
After all so far it has been known that one country in South America can not buy the Gripen NG, but perhaps could be more in this ‘list’.
I guess that something has been missing in this title as well as in the article, but even after I had been spending so many hours trying to figure out what is missing I still not find out what it suppose to be so far.
I think it should be something important …
Tip: I think that what is missing would be important to answer a question.
maurobaggioNo official sources, you’re sure ?
About the UK has been vetoed the sale of Gripen NG?
Nope. It is impossible to get any reliable link about this because: the United Kingdom has not banned the sale, for the simple fact that deal it were not started from the beginning. Once it was not prepared a contract for sale the Gripen NG for Argentina, by definition this has never vetoed by UK.
The information available that we could find out about this should be that Minister of Defense from Brazil and Argentina had been signed an agreement in official and public event about the interest on 24 Gripen NG by Argentina, but this was abandoned after the UK press say that the UK Government will not approve any future sale of the Gripen NG for Argentina.
Apparently JoyLin has been believed that it is possible that the United Kingdom will approve the sale of the Gripen NG for Argentina, maybe he knows something new about this.
Then you’d better ask him if there are any link that mentions the possibility from selling the Gripen NG to Argentina sales beyond that video from SAAB.
After all it would be something new about it issue,since there are a lot of post here has been claiming that UK will not allow it, and those are not mine.
maurobaggioAgain thats a largely moot point nomad. Its not a case of deploying CATOBAR ‘at that time’ it would have been a case of sensibly programmed spend. IAF scoped its MMRCA requirement and had put out the RFI in 2001 if memory serves?. The list of likely candidates was one that had Rafale in it for obvious reasons even if, IIRC, the 2000 was favoured initially. Making the long term naval fighter determination a factor at that point…advised by the IAF options and scoped in the same timeframe to match a longer term CATOBAR carrier design/build cycle was an entirely feasible and practical option.
There would have been no way that India could’ve fielded CATOBAR in the same time it ‘theoretically’ could have fielded STOBAR/MiG…that isnt contended…the point is though that it didnt need to and, much like the SHAR/MiG comparison thats a meaningless metric. STOVL could have been extended to retain adequate capability beyond what actually happened…as Swerve alludes to. It could have done so at minimal expense…certainly compared to what STOBAR was going to cost.
The simple illustration is that, the way this transpired, the IN has just deployed an old STOBAR carrier with at most a couple of dozen MiG-29’s and a Kamov AEW det. They could have deployed a new CATOBAR carrier with a couple of dozen Rafale-M and an E-2 detachment. I know which offers more capability and which offers the better platform for their naval aviation to evolve from. I’ll leave it there as I’ve said all this before too many times and this is a Rafale thread!
The idea is good today but 15 years ago the situation of India were a bit different from the actual, especially its relationship with the US.
Even if India had been made the choice for a new Aircraft Carrier with CATOBAR concept almost 15 years ago or even less, I guess that would be little chance that it new Aircraft Carrier could be equipped with the Rafale M or the AEW E-2C, once t the US could not allow the sale of the E 2C for India due the India’s nuclear program at this time.
However the main fact should be that 15 years ago India had been negotiating the acquisition of Su 30MKI, so even if it had opted for a new Aircraft Carrier with CATOBAR concept, then its quite possible that fighter had been chosen would be an improved version as something like Su 33MKI, once this Su 33 from India could be equipped with maritime versions of the TVC engines from Su 30MKI as well as its PESA radars, and all the avionics and weapons from this. As well the Su 30MKI this supposed Su 33MKI could be assembled in India too.
Both Su 33 and MiG 29K as far I could remember it had been developed by the Soviet Union for the Kuznetsov Class Aircraft Carrier with STOBAR concept as well for the first Nuclear Aircraft Carrier from Ulyanovsk class that would use the CATOBAR concept.
For those STOBAR and CATOBAR new Aircraft Carrier Class it had been developed the AEW Yakovlev Yak-44, and this would be capable to match with the E-2C from U.S. With the end of the Soviet Union the Ulyanovsk Aircraft Carrier had been abandoned its construction after 1991 as well as the AEW Yak 44 program.
With the supposed new Aircraft Carrier with CATOBAR concept to India after 2001, perhaps the own Russia could assist the India to develop this, as well could reactivate the AEW Yak 44 program. Indeed the Russia has been made this in case with the MiG 29K, just by coincidence the Su 33 and MiG 29K were designed by the Soviet Union to operate together in its planned news Aircraft Carriers, but its concept were abandoned in reason of the lack of funds by Russia after the end of the Soviet Union.
By coincidence or not the Soviet Union collapsed in the same time that it had been implementing this ambitious program of the constructions o those new Aircraft Carriers.
Perhaps the fact should be that good ideas had never implemented it seem very clever or even genius, while the good ideas has been implemented it seem very humans …
maurobaggioCould the delay in the rollout of 39-8 be due to the Brazilian engineers joining the production team late this year? That way the Brazilians get the “final touch” on the first Gripen E, pre production fighter and the marketing promise gets fulfilled.
And since they are on track with the program (deliveries in 2018 instead of 2017) they can afford this delay in testing.
About all the promises has been fulfilled by SAAB, I suggest to all those who has been no doubts about it to go to the video above at the recording time: 1 minute and 36 seconds.
If the translation is not wrong, it says that Brazil will have all rights to export the Gripen NG for all Latin America, though on the same video the illustrated map only shows South America.
However the detail in this illustration map should be that same points as I have assumed even for Argentina as possible customer of the Gripen NG.
As you all know in this thread the UK has been blocked the sale of 24 Gripen NG that Brazil were negotiating with Argentina.
I do not know when this video was made, but it was posted on YouTube in March 2014, before the contract had been signed with Brazil, once it occurred in October 2014 , as well of the signing of the intention letter of the 24 Gripen NG to Argentina.
If this video belongs at the SAAB, this would be strong evidence that it has been making many promises without much concern whether this will be able to accomplish these sames in the future.
There are at least some good news about the SAAB and Brazil has been still negotiating the details on the rights of the Brazil to export the Gripen NG about what can be read in the article below.
I guess that something has been missing in this title as well as in the article, but even after I had been spending so many hours trying to figure out what is missing I still not find out what it suppose to be so far.
I think it should be something important …
Tip: I think that what is missing would be important to answer a question.
maurobaggioI guess that something has been missing in this title as well as in the article, but even after I had been spending so many hours trying to figure out what is missing I still not find out what it suppose to be so far.
I think it should be something important …
Tip: I think that what is missing would be important to answer a question.
maurobaggioHi maurobaggio; I have appreciated your contributions in the past, but to be honest I too have not bothered to keep up with this thread lately, because it has been dominated by your negativity on matters that seem to be highly questionable, trivial, or at least well-trodden ground. Perhaps this is an unfair characterisation of your recent contributions, I am merely conveying my own fleeting impressions and how they relate to my (lack of) participation, but it seems others feel similarly. I think it will help when we have something new to discuss, either in terms of the flight of the first pre-production aircraft later this year, the emergence of more concrete details of the arrangements being made with Brazil, or whatever.
This simple summaries bellow in the box are something very well known and there are nothing important in these, but I have been considered all this together to elaborate my conclusion.
Despite all factors that we could think that are reasonable to make our choices, inevitably at some point emotional factors will contributed to this and even could taken over this decision.
How greater are our empathy( or not) for something( even an idea), this feeling will be able to decrease our capabilities to find out some faults (real or even imaginary) and because this we could accept better( or not) this new ‘thing’.
As good as could be such product, if the supplier has been fails to establish a good relationship with the client, the possibility about the perception of the high quality of the product has been decreased in the same ratio.
So my away biased conclusion for all the criticisms that I have been received, once its almost impossible for me to reach a 100% reasonable conclusion because I’m human, is this : my ‘product’ should be classified(at the best mode) as terrible, and my relationship with the ‘customers’ at the same circumstances is deplorable.
So in reason of this conclusion I have been distorting the facts in order to please my convictions, once that vast majority has showed this to me.
Thanks for everyone that help to lightened for me this conclusion.
Personally I am looking forward to Indonesia’s decision in the next year or two, although Gripen still seems a rather distant prospect for that contract — mostly because the case for it requires more vision, dedication and coordination amongst various branches and departments of the Indonesian government than the comparatively simple option of handwaving through TNI-AU’s preference for Su-35.
I do not know much about the proposal has been made to Indonesia, but if both Gripen E/ F are part of the proposal I think there are some fact that should be mentioned so far:
The President of Brazil agreed to receive the new Indonesian Ambassador to Brazil, but when his were in the ceremony along with others Ambassadors in this year, the President of Brazil had been refused to accept its credentials for this new Indonesian Ambassador, as retaliation at the a request not attended by the President of Indonesia.
In response at this the Indonesia has recalled its Ambassador for consultations, which in diplomatic circles is something very serious.
Both the Gripen E and the Sweden has been nothing to do with it, but the Gripen F has been mentioned to be developed as well as assembled in Brazil.
I think that minor diplomatic incident with Brazil will not affect in any way the evaluation of the Gripen E by the Indonesia.
What do you think about this hypothetical situation with Indonesia?
Indeed I got such strange feeling after I had remembered the Gripen F because I not read any recent post about it …
I hope the Gripen F is real because if it not …
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