dark light

maurobaggio

Forum Replies Created

Viewing 15 posts - 316 through 330 (of 480 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • maurobaggio
    Participant

    Well, Luftwaffe F-4F was only retired earlier this year after 40 years service, while 1970s built F-15 are still flying with USAF and IDF. This must certainly say something about the technical reliability and durability of both types, don’t you think?

    In this case we could assume that F 111E/F from USAF and F 14A/B/C/D from US Navy were all withdrawn from service also because those aircraft’s had lacked reliability, while the F 111C from Australia remained in service until 2010 and the F 14A from Iran still are active because these were more reliable than others from USAF and US Navy ?

    In my country there is a saying: where there is smoke always there is fire.

    Regarding the MiG 23 there were many reports about difficulties in flying those fighters once these should be most unstable than the legacy MiG 21 . Also the MiG 23 in all its variants were much more expensive to operate and maintain than the legacy MiG 21 .

    Due to the end of the Cold War all countries formerly belonging to the former Warsaw Pact had made major cuts in defense budgets , and because of this there was a reduction in the number of training hours as well as reduction of number of the aircraft’s due to budget cuts .

    Thus these nations that had decommissioned the MiG 23 and continued to operate the MiG 21 took a logical decision that were to concentrate the available budgetary resources in MiG 21 with which it could keep although this were less advanced than the MiG 23.

    This logic has a recent important precedent when the U.S. had been stopped the production of F/A 22 Raptor in 2008 to concentrate all budget resources on the F 35 Lightning II despite that F 35 were less advanced than the F/A 22.

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    During the Cold War some myths had been developed about the MiG 23 that it had the ‘crate shape’ profile because it were more easier and cheap for manufacturing in reason of mass production to supply all countries from Warsaw Pact and others allies from Soviet Union.

    Indeed the MiG 23 were several times more expensive to produce and maintain while compared to its predecessor MiG 21 , and this higher cost were not only because of more advanced missiles BVR or electronics equipment’s at this time, also because the MiG 23 was designed as ‘off road fighter’ to operate at airfields severely damaged by enemy attacks.

    Due to that the MiG 23 had been received variable geometry wings with goal to reduce landing speed and takeoff and landing gear highly reinforced to resist efforts resulting from a damaged runways. The MiG 23 fuselage with facetted shape since this had incremented structural strength to withstand those efforts in takeoffs or landings in damaged runways.

    All this could allow the MiG 23 were also capable of operating on alternative airfields , though alternatives could also mean airfields had been captured from the enemies in its advance or retreat of the Armored divisions from Soviet Union , in which the Battalions of Engineering from those Armored divisions were able to repair the damaged runways from this captured airfields rapidly, as ie could remove debris and fill craters in the runways with the available local materials such as land and gravel packed , since the MiG 23/27 would be able to operate under these dread conditions.

    As the main offensive missions in the case of the Warsaw Pact would be under the responsibility of the Armored Divisions from Soviet Union , the MiG 23 had been fewer distributed to other countries of the Warsaw Pact in reason of its high production cost and operation.

    About the Soviet Union doctrine the others Air Forces from Warsaw Pact had keep an only mission to support the operations from Soviet Union, that could means that air forces would perform local intercept missions that MiG 21 would be enough to carry out. Those others Air Forces from Warsaw Pact should not be displaced to others countries such as the Soviet Union.

    As well as in case of rebellion from any country of the Warsaw Pact the obliteration of its Air Forces could be more practicable to accomplish with the air attack against long runways from its air bases that had been operating the MiG 21 than if they were fully equipped with the ‘off road’ MiG 23 .

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    I already did but here it is again:

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?69726-New-bomber-for-Russian-Air-Force

    Thank you. In fact I have not seen the link before, and had not followed this thread in 2007 since I joined in 2008 .

    After reading this thread from 2007 in the link above I thought in my humble opinion that it is very interesting for its posts already published.

    However between 2007 and 2014 many things has been changed since in 2007 there were rumors about the possibility of a new Russian Bomber project, and now in 2014 there is a project called PAK DA to this new bomber, what in terms of Russia that is a huge change of events.

    But the most important for a discussion would be the specs on this new bomber PAK DA, but this as had happened in 2007 still remain today in 2014 as speculations.

    The Russians enjoyed mysteries and are masters about creating the same, because of this they eventually could leaked false and true information’s at the same time as the project will forward.

    So now the PAK DA will gently left the shadows it has been immersed since 2007 , but due to political impact of this project the Russians could attempt to keep the suspense until the last moment before presenting the first prototype .

    With respect to the fifth-generation fighter as the PAK FA or T – 50 the strategy was quite different, once the PAK FA has been directed also to the foreign market and therefore Russia were more transparent about its developments, after all India has been participating in this project, so with the goal to get future customers for the PAK FA the Russia and even the India has been used a lot of free promotion, and because this had been disseminated reliable information about the PAK FA from the beginning.

    I guess that actual Thread will not be the last about the PAK DA, but for sure the Thread from 2007 was the first , so in my insignificant opinion I think we should stay here until this Thread will be eventually succeeded by a “third version”.

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    Considering this topic is already descending into silliness, it might be an idea to close it and merge what’s worth salvaging with the other PAK-DA thread:

    If you think there is something in this post that deserves to be saved then please provide me the link to this PAK DA Thread.

    The PAK DA could be an offspring from Tu 160, could not?

    In 1991 the Soviet Union had been keeping the Tu 160 in production at the industrial plant from Kazan as well the Tu 95MS at the industrial plant from Samara , since contrary to what are mentioned regularly Tu 95MS were produced as new in the 80s and not retrofitted for any previous version of Tu 95 .

    If in the age of the Soviet Union with all available military budget did not replace the production line of the Tu 95 MS by its new advanced Tu 160 despite both had been carried with same mission that were to launch the cruise missiles Kh 55 and the Kh 55 SM , today in Russia to replace the production line of the Tu 160 for a new project seems unlikely .

    From the short information that I know about the PAK DA this would be a high improvement from Tu 160, in the synthesis the PAK DA would be very similar to the Tu 160 in its design even as the MiG 35 with the MiG 29 or Su 35S with the Su 27, but the PAK DA could introduce a new engine had been based in the NK 32 from the Tu 160 that should given with the capability to get supercruise at the PAK DA .

    So unlike the Tu 160 that only could be capable of reaching Mach 2 but with a greatly reduced range and for short time, these new engines from PAK DA could get intercontinental range while maintaining supersonic cruise speed at Mach 1.2 at 1.4 . This capability could appear not much impressive, but in simple terms that should decrease the time for reaction from air defenses to intercept the PAK DA around 50% when comparable with cruise speed of the Mach 0.8 from Tu 160 .

    In the 90s with the high possibility that U.S. would produce 600 F 22 Raptor, the small fleet from Russia of the Tu 160 would became obsolete to face this future huge air defense capability from U.S., and this hypothetical successor from Tu 160 should be something like the stealth B 2A Spirit from U.S. to secure such high capability to escape of the F 22 Raptor.

    However the reality today are complete different after the shoot down of the production line of the F 22 Raptor in 2008 with the delivery of approximately 190 fighters and the replacement of the remain fleet of the F 15C/D by the F 35A Lightning II, and if the U.S. with its all financial resources were incapable to replace the B 52H by the high advanced B 2A Spirit certainly the Russia should have much more problems with its military budget to replace the Tu 95 SM or even the Tu 160 by anything like the stealth B 2A Spirit.

    Once build such an aircraft like the B 2A Spirit today would be as complex and expensive as the early 90s for the U.S., and in any case the military budgets from all nations has been limited by the size of the own economies, so the more you invest in a project will be fewer resources available for other projects. After all even the most profitable companies in the world has the financial resources to invest in all projects that would like.

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    When I was young I had no patience to hear about the history, now that I am old I can not talk about anything without mentioning the history. If anyone knows the reason for this save it for yourself, because I do not want to hear now.

    The PAK DA could be an offspring from Tu 160, could not?

    In 1991 the Soviet Union had been keeping the Tu 160 in production at the industrial plant from Kazan as well the Tu 95MS at the industrial plant from Samara , since contrary to what are mentioned regularly Tu 95MS were produced as new in the 80s and not retrofitted for any previous version of Tu 95 .

    If in the age of the Soviet Union with all available military budget did not replace the production line of the Tu 95 MS by its new advanced Tu 160 despite both had been carried with same mission that were to launch the cruise missiles Kh 55 and the Kh 55 SM , today in Russia to replace the production line of the Tu 160 for a new project seems unlikely .

    From the short information that I know about the PAK DA this would be a high improvement from Tu 160, in the synthesis the PAK DA would be very similar to the Tu 160 in its design even as the MiG 35 with the MiG 29 or Su 35S with the Su 27, but the PAK DA could introduce a new engine had been based in the NK 32 from the Tu 160 that should given with the capability to get supercruise at the PAK DA .

    So unlike the Tu 160 that only could be capable of reaching Mach 2 but with a greatly reduced range and for short time, these new engines from PAK DA could get intercontinental range while maintaining supersonic cruise speed at Mach 1.2 at 1.4 . This capability could appear not much impressive, but in simple terms that should decrease the time for reaction from air defenses to intercept the PAK DA around 50% when comparable with cruise speed of the Mach 0.8 from Tu 160 .

    In the 90s with the high possibility that U.S. would produce 600 F 22 Raptor, the small fleet from Russia of the Tu 160 would became obsolete to face this future huge air defense capability from U.S., and this hypothetical successor from Tu 160 should be something like the stealth B 2A Spirit from U.S. to secure such high capability to escape of the F 22 Raptor.

    However the reality today are complete different after the shoot down of the production line of the F 22 Raptor in 2008 with the delivery of approximately 190 fighters and the replacement of the remain fleet of the F 15C/D by the F 35A Lightning II, and if the U.S. with its all financial resources were incapable to replace the B 52H by the high advanced B 2A Spirit certainly the Russia should have much more problems with its military budget to replace the Tu 95 SM or even the Tu 160 by anything like the stealth B 2A Spirit.

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    TO BE CONTINUED???

    I really suggest you spend some time discussing things with Iraqi veterans on the iraqi military forum.

    Thanks for the invite, but I’ll respectfully decline about the same, since that surely there will be no woman there. At least here there will always be a tiny possibility and because of this I will use the ‘ammo’ that I have left here.

    However everyone who so desired could help bringing the version of the facts on which it has knowledge since every history event could have more than one version, after all this could be perhaps one of the purpose that we are here ‘spending’ our time as well as trying to expand our own knowledge, even if it should be a remote possibility of being able to share this knowledge with any woman.

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    HARDENED TARGETS WITH SOFT SKILLS

    The official version actually shows that the Buccaneers and Tornado’s GR1 from RAF were operated jointly at an altitude as 7,000 m or 20,000 ft in attack missions during the Gulf War in 1991.

    However the official version does not provide a lot details about the fact that strategists did not order the Buccaneers since the beginning of Operation Desert Storm, and in this case the lack of time could not be used as ‘stylish’ excuse.

    [PHP]The Tornado GR1 IDS in the 80’s were one of the most powerful instruments from NATO to strike the Warsaw Pact. However among NATO strategists had doubts whether the Tornado GR 1 would be used in attacks on ultra low altitude or would be used in attacks on medium altitude with fighter escort and support of ECM and SEAD aircrafts against the most important targets from Warsaw Pact.[/PHP]

    Anyway the Buccaneers could have been useful in supporting SEPECAT Jaguar from RAF and other fighter-bombers from Coalition even to designate targets in tactical missions over occupied Kuwait, as well as in attack missions in depth for the Tornado GR1. Indeed the F 111F from U.S. made anti tank missions over occupied Kuwait in which had been destroyed approximately 1.500 armored vehicles from Iraq.

    The most usual explanation for this were that the US-led Coalition had many aircraft’s (F 111F, F 15E, F 16D and A 6E) with a wide range of advanced equipment with infra red imaging capability for daytime and night missions with laser designator for PGM( Precision Guided Missiles) and LGB (Laser Guided Bombs) and due to this the Buccaneer with its limited targets designation TV system AN/AVQ 23E Pave Spike for daytime would not be needed to designate targets for the Paveway LGB .

    Over the battlefield of Kuwait that were occupied by Iraq the Coalition had Attack helicopters AH 64A Apache with its infra red and night light imaging system that could designate targets even for the LGB(Laser Guided Bombs) or PGM ( Precision Guided Missiles) launched by attack aircraft’s if the missiles as the AGM 114A Hellfire would not enough power warhead to destroy targets as bunkers or any others hardened structures.

    Just the beginning of the Desert Storm air campaign, the Iraq began to counter-attack with the launch of TBM (Tactical Ballistic Missiles) such as the Iraq versions from SS 1 SCUD, which in fact were predicted by the strategists. However what had been not foreseen were that the elimination this threat would be several times more difficult than were anticipated.

    While the Buccaneer and Tornado GR 1 had been attacking heavily defended targets in Iraq as Air Bases in missions during the day, the F 111F were focused on attacking armored vehicles as i.e. BMP 1 and T 54 tanks almost entirely hidden into the sand during the night over the occupied Kuwait.

    Scud missile on TEL vehicle, National Museum of Military History, Bulgaria

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Scud_missile_on_TEL_vehicle%2C_National_Museum_of_Military_History%2C_Bulgaria.jpg/450px-Scud_missile_on_TEL_vehicle%2C_National_Museum_of_Military_History%2C_Bulgaria.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Scud_missile_on_TEL_vehicle,_National_Museum_of_Military_History,_Bulgaria.jpg
    [PHP]Indeed Iraq had received few original SS 1 Scud from Soviet Union and other countries since most of the Iraqis missiles were built local as All Hussein. It was widely used in the Iran Iraq War , as well as another version from All Hussein called All Abbas with extended range. Because of these facts there has always been high controversy on the information about relating to the number of missiles built as well as its capabilities.[/PHP]

    The reason could be the ability of the FLIR( Forward Looking Infra Red) AN/APQ 26 from F 111F to detect the vehicles from Iraq Army due to the fact the metal from vehicle to cool faster than the desert environment at nightfall, in this case the metal being colder than the environment allowed detection of the vehicle, just the opposite that were supposed to use the FLIR, once the reason of the FLIR should be detected targets with thermal signatures more high than the environment.

    Perhaps this should be not the only reason to use the F 111F over the occupied Kuwait and Iraq desert closer the border with Saudi Arabia, after all other more advanced FLIR equipment such as LANTIRN from F 15E and F 16D did not show the same capability of the AN / APQ 26 despite the LANTIRN still a generation ahead from the AN/AVQ 26 Pave Tack.

    Indeed other possibility about the efficiency of the F 111F could be advent from its powerful terrain following radar that had been operating in the band Ku, once it were possible to detect the periscope of a submarine in the middle of the ocean by ASW(Anti Submarine Warfare) helicopters and aircrafts , it may also be possible to get a more intense radar signature from a top tower such as a tank T 54/55 that were dipping the sea sand over the occupied Kuwait.

    F-111 Night Cockpit

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/F-111_Night_Cockpit.jpg/800px-F-111_Night_Cockpit.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-111_Night_Cockpit.jpg
    [PHP]F 111F were a highly complex aircraft to operate, which had demanded a high degree of training of its crews besides of a high level of teamwork. Still the F 111F had been proven to be highly effective in the first Gulf War even against small dispersed and partially hidden targets such as: MBT, IFVs, APC, TEL among others.[/PHP]

    In this case when detecting something with a more intense reflection signature on the terrain following radar from the homogeneous desert terrain around the possible radar contact, then could be used the AN / AVQ 26 Pave Tack to search the area in order to classify the contact, in case there are indications that it were a hidden vehicles on the ground would begin the attack with Paveway LGB.

    Apparently the primary targets of F 111F in this missions over the occupied Kuwait would be the TELs( Transporter Erector Launcher) from SS 1 Scud as the model MAZ 543 with capable to operate in all terrain like the desert.

    That were thought the Iraq should keep the TEL MAZ 543 in ditches during the day until nightfall when it would leave those shelters to launch Scuds missiles. Due to the difficulty of identifying the targets during the night with low quality image from AN/APQ 26 at this time, and the psychological pressure had been placed over the crews from F 111F to destroy those TELs, even a lonely metal drums abandoned in the desert could easily became a target for Paveway LGB.

    MAZ 543 TEL from SS 1 Scud

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a1/9P117_9K72.jpg/800px-9P117_9K72.jpg
    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:9P117_9K72.jpg?uselang=ru
    [PHP]The TEL MAZ 543 were an important element to the SS 1 Scud set, once this vehicle on wheels had propitiated great mobility as well as could be used in all terrain. However in the Gulf War there were a lot misinformation about Iraq TELs , that had happened just before Operation Desert Storm started, once the Coalition strategists assumed that most of the missiles SS 1 Scud from Iraq would be launched from fixed ramps and not by mobile TELs.[/PHP]

    The joint missions between the Tornados GR1 IDS and Buccaneers were not something casual because of the Gulf War in 1991, but something that had been prepared since the early 80s to be used in case of war against the Warsaw Pact.

    The Tornado GR 1 had been overwhelm the Buccaneers in virtually all aspects, from the most advanced electronics equipment’s as the agility and supersonic speed. But in one aspect the Buccaneers had an advantage over Tornado GR 1 and this would be the capability to resist damage caused by portable missiles and anti aircraft’s cannons and machine guns.

    The Tornado GR 1 and F 111 could perform its attacks at ultra low altitude with supersonic speed, as well as the Soviets Su 24 Fencer or even Tu 22M2/3, which would make it virtually ineffective of the anti air defense systems such as machine guns and anti aircraft guns of small caliber, or even MANPADS as SA 7 class, due to lack of time from their crew will be capable to detect the attacking aircraft and engage them. Even for the guns and SAM with radars assistance the advantages were on the side of those aircraft’s, since aircraft would be flying below the early warning radars from the air defense from its targets.

    What had made the F 111 , Tornado GR 1 and Su 24 extremely deadly were its advanced avionics for its time, once these aircraft were equipped with terrain following radar that could scanner the land surface for flying automatically at low altitude over all weather conditions night and day, as well as ground mapping radars that could detected targets as buildings or others structures over the ground also in all weather conditions night and day.

    These aircraft’s were highly dependent from its radars to accomplish that strike missions. Even in the daytime and with good weather conditions to obtain precision in those attacks. The radars had become the greatest vulnerability from these aircrafts.

    The reason of this were that radars were active sensor systems that emitted electromagnetic radiation towards the targets, and because this that electromagnetic radiation could be detected for the targets if the same were equipped with ELINT systems.

    In 1968 the U.S. had been used for the first time the F 111A in the Vietnam War. It did only in 55 missions with the loss of two aircraft�s due to technical problems. Those missions over Vietnam had show for the Soviet Union the high advanced attack aircraft that will become the F 111 when those failures would be rectified. The Soviet Union had been already developing the Tu 22M and studying the prototype T 6 that would be the Su 24 Fencer in the next years.

    F-111As Combat Lancer 1968

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6e/F-111As_Combat_Lancer_1968.jpg/800px-F-111As_Combat_Lancer_1968.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-111As_Combat_Lancer_1968.jpg
    [PHP]F 111A Ardvacks in Vietnam 1968 had begun a new era in air warfare with the capabilities to conduct depth attacks on ultra low altitudes with supersonic speed in all weather conditions day and night against the most defended targets from North Vietnam.[/PHP]

    But the Soviet Union had also noted in 1968 that air defenses from Warsaw Pact would be extremely vulnerable to face such aircraft as the F-111 or the new concept that would be the Tornado IDS. So it would be necessary to take urgent measures to counter the advantage of the F-111 from U.S. and NATO.

    In fact it would be necessary to introduce a new fighters generation even more advanced than the new MiG 23 in late-stage development, as well as a new generation of SAM to contain this new threat and either the new cruiser missiles under development by the U.S. High priority in the development of the MiG 29 and Su 27 along the MiG 31 as well as the new SAMs (SA 10 , SA 11 ,SA 12 and SA 15) and its introduction in the 80s were largely a result of it.

    However in the 70’s the best that the Soviet Union would be to put in production the MiG 23 with a limited capability to look / shoot down and the MiG 25PD to destroy targets as the F 111 and the future Tornado IDS along other threat as the cruiser missiles .

    Sukhoi T6-1

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/34/Sukhoi_T6-1.jpg/800px-Sukhoi_T6-1.jpg
    http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sukhoi_T6-1.jpg?uselang=ru
    [PHP]The first prototypes of the Su 24 as T 6 had no variable geometry wings, as well as the prototypes of the MiG 23. Meanwhile in the late 60s the Soviet Union had been beginning to prioritize the variable geometry wings which resulted in the modification of various types already in production from fixed wings to variable geometry as: the Su 7 to Su 17 and Tu 22 Blinder for the Tu 22M Backfire. Among other facts this change had been intended to reduce the length of the takeoff and landing runways in order to make possible [/PHP]

    This new fighters were not the ideal solution to those threats once that SAM network system from Warsaw Pact would be outdated due this threat, and the new SAM system still in conception phase at this time. Because of this the Soviet Union had been sought an alternative to the short and medium term could be implemented in the early 70’s to increase the defense against those threats.

    This alternative solution were widely knew by the Soviet Navy in reason of the air defense of its warships or by its attack aircrafts with anti ship missiles from AV-MF, once to defend against those anti- ships missile the best defense were the ECM ( Electronic Counter Measuring) to interfere electronically over the radar from missile and strike aircraft that would launch them, as well the AAM missiles from interceptor fighters and SAM missiles had been launched by the warships against the strike aircraft’s from Soviet Union.

    Thus the Soviets had sought during the 70s the development and introduction of ground electronic jamming systems for its air defense of its most important ground facilities such as Air Bases, in case of interference systems could blind the radars from attack aircraft as the F 111.

    This could be done in two ways:

    1. The first possibility that would interfere with ECM( Electronic Counter Measures) the terrain following radar from attack aircrafts, which during the night or in bad weather conditions would obligate the aircraft to climb to an altitude that would prevent it to collision with the ground, and thereby the same would become visible in the early warning radars from Air Defense, which could result in activating the SAM batteries or even the interceptors fighters to destroy the enemy aircraft.
    2. The second mode would interfere with ECM the ground mapping radar; the attack aircraft could strike the target also in eye ball mode during the day with good weather if the ground mapping radar has been jammed by electronic interference, but this mode would decreased drastically the accuracy, at night or even with bad weather conditions the attack should be most usually with low efficacy. On both cases would be necessary multiply the missions to destroy the same targets as certainly could multiply the loss rate of the attack aircraft’s.

    As the Cairo West Air Base in Egypt had received the facilities to receive the MiG 25P/R/RB in early 1970, and highly probable that this base should be the first to receive those ground jamming electronic systems to be used as ECM against attack aircraft like the F 111 or even fighters bombers like the F 4E Phantom II armed with AIM 7E Sparrow air-air missiles from Israel Air Force.

    In 1972 the U.S. had returned with F 111 to Vietnam and performed thousands of successful missions against important targets in North Vietnam.

    Although those new jamming systems had a great cost to the Soviet Union in the early 70’s, the technology were available for production in large scale, and the cost of this jamming system would be several times less than the equivalent of a SAM battery for protection of the same target while these new SAM will not available for large scale manufacturing.

    The U.S. response were to develop a new version that would be the F 111F during the 70s with an infrared imaging system coupled with laser designation that were denominated AN/AVQ 26 Pave Tack. This system had given the capability for the F 111F to self designate the LGB bombs as GBU 10 Paveway series.

    F-111F 493 TFS with Pave Tack and GBU-10s 1982

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/F-111F_493_TFS_with_Pave_Tack_and_GBU-10s_1982.JPEG/800px-F-111F_493_TFS_with_Pave_Tack_and_GBU-10s_1982.JPEG
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:F-111F_493_TFS_with_Pave_Tack_and_GBU-10s_1982.JPEG
    [PHP]F 111F were the most advanced version of the series F 111 Aardvarks in reason of the its ability to designate targets day and night for the Paveway LGB with the system AN/AVQ 26 Pave Tack that had been installed inside of the internal bomb bay in the belly of the aircraft[/PHP]

    Although the U.S. had been emphasized that the goal would be to use the Paveway LGB by F 111F, indeed what should be sought with the introduction of the system AN/AVQ 26 were also had a backup in case of interference with ECM against the terrain following radar and the ground mapping radar from F 111. In this case of the F 111F could be jamming by ECM, the AN/AVQ 26 that would be immune could also be used for navigation and attack with guided and unguided weapons without the use of terrain following and ground mapping radars.

    As a further advantage that the F 111F could perform attack without emitting a radar signal, which could be detected by Emitter Locating System stations and due to this the aircraft could be located before the attack without that early warning radar would be active from air defense of the target, or even if the F 111 could be bellow from the radar range.

    The Soviet Union also adopted the concept of imaging system with laser designator that were denominated as Kaira 24 for the Su 24M, which went into operation in the 80s, though the Kaira system did not operate in the infrared band in reason of the restrains from electronic industries from Soviet Union, and because this therefore had no night capability as the AN/AVQ 26 from U.S..

    Sukhoi Su-24MK of IRIAF

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/A_Sukhoi_Su-24MK_of_IRIAF_flighting_over_Shiraz.jpg/800px-A_Sukhoi_Su-24MK_of_IRIAF_flighting_over_Shiraz.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:A_Sukhoi_Su-24MK_of_IRIAF_flighting_over_Shiraz.jpg
    [PHP]Su 24M could be described as a light version of the F 111F, about others parameters the Su 24M with the Kaira 24 system to designate targets for LGB had lacked the capability to operate at night or in harsh weather conditions, once the Kaira 24 not operate in the IR mode as the Pave Tack from F 111F. However while the Su 24M had the capability to designate targets for LGB during the 80�s the Tornado IDS lacked this important capability[/PHP]

    However the new Tornado GR 1 IDS that were completing tests and about to enter into production in the 70’s had not anticipated an imaging system as the F 111F or Su 24M, beyond what the Tornado GR 1 had no vacancy space to accommodate a system as AN/AVQ 26 from F 111F or even something like the Kaira 24 from Su 24M.

    The project Tornado GR 1 had been emphasized that strike aircraft should be more as a fighter-bomber in agility parameters than an attack aircraft as the F 111. In this respect the Tornado GR 1 had been surpassed the F 111 and Su 24 in the capability to survive even in dogfight combat with any interceptor fighters as the MiG 21/ 23 from Warsaw Pact.

    However these aspects had limited internal space to accommodate new sensors like the bulky systems as imaging system in development during the 70s, besides the high cost of the same which were not foresaw in the program Tornado GR 1 as well.
    In this last case even if some equivalent version of the AN/AVQ 26 could be transported also on external pod, this solution would decrease the weapons load of the Tornado GR1, and would remain the problem about the cost about this imaging system over the entire program of the Tornado GR 1 IDS.

    Due to the complexity of the program even in all political matters, in several occasions the Tornado GR 1 were threatened to be shut down, which contributed a lot to avoid any further compromise the program with the addition of new sensors so costly and complex as already planned for the Tornado GR 1.

    AN / AVQ 26 Pave Tack

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/85/Pave_Tack_pod.jpg/756px-Pave_Tack_pod.jpg
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Pave_Tack_pod.jpg
    [PHP]AN / AVQ 26 Pave Tack were very advanced for its time, though it was extremely heavy and clumsy to be used by aircraft such as the Tornado GR 1 without compromising the performance of this, but the main fact was that the Pace Tack had a prohibitive cost for the operators from Tornado GR1 IDS[/PHP]

    TO BE CONTINUED

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    maurobaggio this connection you make between Brazilian-Turkish attempts at an Iranian resolution and repercussions for Brazilian-French and Brazilian-US relations are interesting. I would be interested in hearing more about why France did not back the Brazilian-Turkish effort and the resulting fallout. Also, where are you getting the idea that the US initially supported the Brazilian-Turkish effort but later backed out? My impression was that the US was affronted by and rubbished the effort from the very start; in any case, why did the lack of US support not have the same implications for Brazilian-US relations that you attribute to Brazilian-French relations for their lack of support?

    I had the expectation that a good kind soul might have already answered this since could be long story and various obscure parts, even though I do not have a soul in the opinion of my deceased friends, I will try to do this in stages, once the “best” part always gets to the end.

    18 Years of Competition

    In fact when nations such as France and the U.S. had been supported the the appointment of Brazil for the UN Security Council, it would be a reasonable indication that Brazil were negotiating an agreement for the nuclear program with Iran during the year 2009.

    However the most notable fact should be that the U.S. President Mr. Barak Obama sent a letter hitherto secret to the President of Brazil Mr. Lula that U.S. had approved Brazil and Turkey to talks with Iran . Although Turkey is a great nation , but Turkey has belongs to NATO and for this reason Turkey could be working closely with other members of NATO as U.S..

    That secret letter from then President Mr. Barak Obama had been shown as proof for the Iranians authorities that Brazil had recognition from the U.S. to propose a plan for the Nuclear program of Iran.

    Anyway the U.S. had been not satisfied with the proposal for the nuclear program of Iran in 2010 that were submitted by Brazil and Turkey that Iran would send its Uranium isotopes in concentrations of 20% would be stored in Turkey.in this case should be enough to mention this in private way, however what the U.S. did repudiating in public was in fact remove the credentials that Brazil would be representing the U.S. with Iran.

    Apparently the opinion of Brazil were that the U.S. would have been arrogant to dismiss the plan in 2010.

    But in an extremely superficial analysis the U.S. would have several reasons for this besides arrogance, since the plan from Brazil and Turkey had not eliminated the problem of Uranium at 20% from Iran, once this would be stored in Turkey, but this plan could create others problems, not to mention Israel, because at anytime Iran could order the return of the fissile material, and in this case if Turkey refused this could lead at conflict with Iran . As Turkey is a NATO member, it could put NATO at war with Iran.

    Even with the loss of support of the U.S., Brazil had still tried to persuade the other members of the UN Security Council that the plan were feasible , but not even France would have assumed it had a ‘strategic partnership’ with Brazil did not support the proposal by Brazil after the U.S. refusal.

    Everything points to a new problem arose in 2010 that made the U.S. withdraw Brazil as interlocutors with Iran, and this problem also led the other members of the Security Council ( Russia, UK, France and China) to follow the U.S..

    Agreements are proposed and refused every day, but what was still without an obvious answer was the reason President Lula from Brazil had felt betrayed by France, and in reason of that canceled the announcement of the acquisition of the new fighter for Brazilian Air Force as retaliation for France just because the Rafale F3 from France were the favorite at this time, and in this competition the F/A 18E/F Hornet from U.S. along the Gripen NG from Sweden were participating too.

    The successor of President Mr. Lula from Brazil that was his most important minister had been keeping the program to acquire a new fighter suspended for almost three years until December 2013. After one week for the visit of President Mr. Hollande from France, the President of Brazil Mrs. Rousseff has finally decided the purchase of Gripen NG which was the most scored by the Brazilian Air Force report in 2009.

    In this period of three years, and in the aerospace industry that is long time, the Brazil not agreed to reconsider any other proposal made by Europeans about the Typhoon, or even the Russians that had been tried to include the Su 35S and MiG 35, or even the PAK FA. After all both the Russia and the UK also did not support the proposal submitted by Brazil in 2010.

    The reason was that Brazil and the U.S. would be overcoming the divergences had been created with Iran’s nuclear program in 2010, and the acquisition of the F/A 18E/F Hornet would be the confirmation of this ‘new start’, so it would not be desirable to include new competitors that could disrupt the re-approximation between Brazil and the US.

    To illustrate this just imagine the F/A 18E/F Hornet as a big bouquet of roses or a big box of chocolates, or maybe a diamond ring…

    To Be Continued

    in reply to: Brazil closer to Boeing on jets deal after Biden visit #2243575
    maurobaggio
    Participant

    The diplomatic ties with Brazil is more important than “just” a bird.
    From the french side (I will not replay the movie since Lula/Sarkozy love story) there is already importants contracts in the pipeline, we cannot complain of the situation if you make a comparison with our “alliance” with UAE.

    Despite all my unforgivable sins that I don’t have the minor slightest regret, I have great faith for mankind and because of that I believe that the President of France had encouraged Brazil to close the competition that had 18 years and finally choose the Gripen NG, once there would be restrictions about the Rafale F 3 and F/A 18E/F Hornet .

    Although it should be obvious that the President of France Mr. Hollande wanted the Rafale F3 were chosen, diplomatic factors would be more important once France had been biggest supporter of Brazil to the UN Security Council , and like Brazil has been employing only 47 F 5E/F Tiger II that should be embarrassing from France that had supported Brazil to gain a seat on the UN Security Council.

    Indeed the high pretension from Brazil to the UN Security Council had been expressed since the early 2000’s . That could be one of the reasons Brazil to receive the World Cup in 2014 and the Olympics in 2016, once it were part of the campaign of Brazil to obtain high visibility on the World stage with the aim of obtain a seat on the UN Security Council .

    In reason of that Brazil had jointed with Turkey to propose a plan for the nuclear program of Iran , and this union was not accidental since the U.S. secretly supported the participation of Brazil with Turkey , If this plan had worked Brazil could get the credentials to UN Security Council.

    In 2009 with the visit of the President of France Mr. Sarkozy to Brazil became high noticeable the support from France to Brazil for the UN Security Council .

    However some new issue arose in 2010, once the U.S. had been repudiated in public the proposal of Brazil and Turkey to the nuclear program of Iran , and even more astonishing were that all others World Powers ( Russia, China, UK and France) followed the U.S. .

    Just because this in 2010 that Brazil had put the U.S. side by side with Russia , this should already be a reason for Brazil to be in the UN Security Council.

    In retaliation for France not supported the propose of the Brazil about the Nuclear Plan from Iran, since the Rafale F3 was the favorite to win the competition in 2010, the President of Brazil Mr. Lula had been postponed the choice and left it to his successor this decision, and his successor did it in December 2013 with the choice of Gripen NG one week after the visit of the President of France Mr. Hollande.

    About the fact that the F/A 18E/F Hornet had become the favorite until the problem with the NSA …

    To Be Continued

    in reply to: Brazil closer to Boeing on jets deal after Biden visit #2257395
    maurobaggio
    Participant

    You’re probably right, but this shameful practice has to stop! This is military procurement that you’re talking about!

    We will never know whether Lula was sincere, or whether he was just playing Sarkozy like a fiddle (though hindsight tends to favour the latter). However, the FAB reaction at the time made it crystal clear that no final decision had been made.

    I am not really sure that France botched that one, it’s more a case of Gripen winning fair and square (i.e. no bribes or political pressure) by being the lowest bidder.

    If the President of Brazil Mr. Lula was ‘playing’ in 2009 with President of France Mr. Sarkozy of in accordance with Confucius say post, then the former Defense Minister of Brazil Mr. Jobin would have enjoyed this ‘playing’ and decided to continue with this in early 2010 when it announced that the Rafale F3 would be chosen for the Brazil Air Force even though the Gripen NG had been indicated as favorite by the report of the Brazil Air Force .

    Indeed the former Defense Minister Jobin had been said in several occasions that the report of the Brazil Air Force did not consider important features, and so would make a new report on the Rafale F3 would be nominated as the best for Brazil Air Force.

    However this ‘playing’ with the Rafale F3 had ended when France did not support the proposal by Brazil and Turkey to the Iranian nuclear program in 2010.

    I would like to know the Confucius analysis when President Lula said to President Sarkozy that Brazil and France were strategic partners in 2009 that also would be ‘playing’?

    Just as a note, the current President of Brazil Mrs. Rousself also mentioned this strategic partnership in her speech for the President of France Mr. Hollande on its official visit to Brazil, however a week after the official visit of the President of France Mr. Hollande , the President of Brazil had announced that the Gripen NG would be chosen for the Air Force of Brazil .

    While France with Rafale F3 and the U.S. with the F/A 18E/F won diplomatic praise, Sweden got the contract with the Gripen NG.

    Perhaps the Sweden would like more to win diplomatic praise from Brazil instead the contract with the Gripen NG …

    in reply to: Brazil closer to Boeing on jets deal after Biden visit #2218205
    maurobaggio
    Participant

    Rafale never won the competition, so there was no betrayal from Brazil.
    Also France signed a billion dollars worth of contracts with Brazil last year. Nothing as juicy as FX-2, but that shows that there are no sour grapes.

    The President of Brazil Mr. Lula had announced at an official ceremony in 2009 during the official visit of President of France being in this time Mr. Sarkozy that the Rafale F3 would be chosen for the Brazil Air Force .

    After a lot of criticism in the Brazil press for this announcement had been made before the publication of the report about the competition among other fighters ( F/A 18E/F , Rafale F3 and Grippen NG ). In this report the winner would be the Grippen NG , but the Defense Minister of Brazil had announced that he would make another report in which the winner would be the Rafale F3 .

    After the lack of French support for the proposal in 2010 of Brazil and Turkey to the nuclear program of Iran , the President of Brazil withdrew its purchase of the Rafale F3 , and had commented that President of France Mr. Sarkozy would have ‘betrayed’ the Brazil for not supporting the Brazil ‘s plan for nuclear program from Iran , and because of this the left the decision about the fighters to his successor who was his most important Minister , Mrs Rousseff .

    The President of Brazil Mrs. Rousseff had mentioned that it would not choose the Rafale F3 due to its high cost when it would compared to the F/A 18 E/F Hornet and Grippen NG , indeed Ms. Rousseff would have opted for the F/A 18 E/F Hornet , however after the problem with the NSA would have given up this , which could have put the Rafale F3 as favorite again.

    I do not know what the President of France said to the President of Brazil Mrs Rousseff and the former President Mr Lula in a private meeting with this last one to talk about the Rafale F3 , but surely he was quite convincing , and convinced the President of Brazil to announce that Grippen NG would be the victorious one week after the visit of the President of France.

    Anyway Brazil should thank the President of France Mr. Hollande and the President and Vice President of Dassault , since they were able to convince the President of Brazil Mrs. Rousseff to end a competition that has been dragging in 18 years with the announced that Grippen NG would be the new fighter for the Brazil Air Force.

    Congratulations to the President of France for having convinced the Brazil after 18 years to choose its new fighter.

    in reply to: Brazil closer to Boeing on jets deal after Biden visit #2220702
    maurobaggio
    Participant

    After 18 years of indecision or change in the decisions apparently ended the competition in Brazil , and ended as it had began once since 2002 even Grippen C/D were considered at strong candidate for the Brazilian Air Force , but its chances were low due to lack of ‘critical mass’ in political terms of Sweden .

    As in the book The Art of War , the Swedes has been turning their weakness into your greatest strength , since while the F/A 18 E/F Hornet were removed from the competition due to problems with the U.S. because the NSA , the Rafale F3 lost competition in 2010 when France did not support the plan Brazil and Turkey to the problem of Iran with this project to obtain the Uranium fuel for its alleged peaceful nuclear program. Once the weightlessness in political events has been prevented the Sweden became involved in crises like these.

    In 2010 the Rafale F3 had already been chosen , however the Government of Brazil considered as ‘ a betrayal ‘ the fact that France did not support the proposal by Brazil and Turkey. For Brazil the Government of France had refused to support the plan once the U.S. had in fact totally refuted the plan for Brazil and Turkey. Due to this the President of Brazil Mr. Lula left the decision for the fighters to his successor , who would be his former and most important Minister Ms Rousseff.

    Indeed the Government of Brazil in 2010 the lack of support from France were considered ‘ a betrayal ‘ , this was the feeling of both the former President Mr. Lula as his Minister Mrs. Rousseff therefore the supposed preference of already elected President Mrs. Rousseff by the F/A 18E/F from U.S. could be a result of this episode with France in 2010.

    However the problem of the U.S. with NSA given at Rafale F3 another opportunity to return as favorite again in the Brazil competition , and the official visit of the President of France as well as the Vice President of Dassault ten days before the President and the President of the company Dassault in the France delegation had increased prospects for the Rafale F3 would be chosen.

    However after one week of visit of the President of France , the President of Brazil has been surprised to announce that Grippen NG Sweden had won the competition for Brazil.

    I do not know how the French has been reacting to the decision by Brazil by the Grippen NG , however the French has right to be a little angry , after the Rafale F3 in 2010 had almost won the competition and did not taken the contract because of the lack of support for implementation plan from Brazil and Turkey to the problem with Iran’s nuclear program.

    What the French could be asking since then: Why the Government of Brazil had such interested in the Iranian nuclear program, that would be so important at the point the Brazil could be retaliating against France with Rafale F3, once the announce were not scheduled in that Grippen NG were declared as victorious and that fact had been happening almost one week after the visit of the President of France in the Brazil, that could be only coincidence?

    Congratulations to Sweden, once again won the competition for being the best.

    maurobaggio
    Participant

    MiG 25RB in Cairo West Air Base

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=205766&stc=1&d=1338411593

    http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=205766&stc=1&d=1338411593
    Courtesy by SENS

    In 1971 the Soviet Union sent to Egypt a contingent of MiG 25R and MiG 25RB with the aim of performing reconnaissance missions over Israel and Mediterranean Sea, and for those missions the MiG 25 had been operating in Cairo Base West after it were prepared to receive the MiG 25.

    The Base West Cairo was originally built by the British’s before of the World War II, and this location it is just a few miles from the city of Cairo in Egypt.

    Cairo West Air Base


    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OT3UgVEF5zo/Uq93wjvLdzI/AAAAAAAACEE/NchBY0EoYhM/s800/Cairo%2520West_2ER.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa

    Because of the installation of the MiG 25 near the city of Cairo in 1971 the flow of “tourists” to Egypt had increased considerably since the MiG 25 arrived, at this time the MiG 25 were the most advanced and secret fighters from Soviet Union. Actually the MiG 25 in Egypt had became a priority for the information agencies from the West besides others like China and Israel, once this place were the best to collect information about the operational capabilities from MiG 25 in Egypt.

    Although access to Base Cairo West were highly restricted by the Soviet Union, but still a lot of information ended up had been openly disclosed by the Egyptians themselves, and those information’s ended up being widely circulated around the World.

    https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rQ6WzpA7zJo/Uq93uNxCgAI/AAAAAAAACD4/mtB0uOVZUNc/s800/Cairo%2520West_1ER.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa

    For many analysts at the time the choice of Cairo West by the Soviet Union had been motivated by political rather than military reasons, since it was believed that the Soviet Union would be interested in demonstrating the technology and military capabilities of the MiG-25 to the West, and gain political points with it, and put these MiG 25 near the capital of Egypt facilitate this propaganda issue.

    If the operation of the MIG 25 in Egypt from 1971 to 1972 were highly publicized at the time, the same could not be said about the huge preparations had been started in 1970 to bring the MiG-25 for the Cairo West Air Base.

    In this case the rules were the secrecy, since in Cairo West AB had been built underground reinforced shelter to operate and perform all tests and maintenance on the MiG 25. In anyway reinforced shelters had been built as preparation for the MiG 25 since 1970 and were done by the Soviets which increased secrecy about the same.

    Hardened Aircraft Shelter ( HAS) in Cairo West Air Base

    https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Ce7R2g9Vagw/Uq93yn-wViI/AAAAAAAACEY/9KhD79uOM5o/s800/Cairo%2520West_5ER.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa

    The supposed reason for this at this time should be the fear that the Israel Air Force could attack Cairo West Air Base in order to destroy the MiG 25 to avoid reconnaissance missions over Israel.

    In 1971 the population density were much lower than today near the city of Cairo, however even in this age of the Cairo West Base would not be an ideal place for the operation of MiG-25R/RB , since the aircraft had been equipped for reconnaissance missions as the MiG 25RB should be kept in remote locations and preferably isolated, especially in a country like Egypt that was not behind the iron curtain from Soviet Union.

    The reasons were that reconnaissance missions as performed by MiG 25RB would demand even in peacetime, although this was not the reality of the situation in Egypt and Israel in 1971, the highest degree of confidentiality, as the simple takeoff of the MiG 25 could be detected by the intelligence services from Israel and NATO, which would eventually put on alert the potential targets of those missions.

    Group of the HAS in Cairo West Air Base

    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-5O7dL00nNHc/Uq93tweFiwI/AAAAAAAACDw/ayipht8Mif8/s800/Cairo%2520West_11ER.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa

    In fact the MiG 25RB could operate outside of the range reach main means for interception at the disposal from the West and Israel, in this case the F 4E Phantom II and Hawk SAM MIN 15, or even of SAM available in vessels NATO or F 4N Phantom II aboard in the US Aircraft Carriers .

    However the surprise would be highly essential for a successful reconnaissance mission, since the simple alert about the takeoff of the MiG 25 from Cairo West Air Base by the intelligence services could allow potential targets of reconnaissance missions stay alert and ready in case of SINGINT and ELINT missions had been performed by the MiG 25.

    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-1akz5wlZNDU/Uq93xASDfMI/AAAAAAAACEM/V46q_spEHDQ/s800/Cairo%2520West_4ER.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa
    Note: After the signing of the Camp David Treat the Egypt has been receiving equipment’s and aircraft’s from U.S. since 1979 in replace of the Soviet Union, the first fighter had delivered from Egypt were the F 4E Phantom II already retired from service in Egypt Air Force.

    Those potential targets could shut down radar and communications equipments or even perform emissions from Jamming over the sensors of the MiG 25 in order to blind the equipment collection from MiG 25 before it could enter into range detection of the radar emissions and communications equipment of the targets.

    In case of air reconnaissance photography missions in visual electromagnet emissions or even in infrared, early warning of the MiG 25 takeoff could also be provided time to the targets could interrupt those operations, in the case of ground targets that simple actions as to extend camouflage nets on the equipment could be accomplished and cover many important details.

    Thus an alert a few minutes prior to takeoff from Cairo West of the MiG 25R/RB could be highly important, even few minutes before the MiG 25 had been detected by radar from the targets, once this few minutes could allow simple actions that significantly decreased the effectiveness of the reconnaissance mission.

    After disagreements between the Soviet Union and Egypt due to the fact that the Soviet Union would not provide the MiG 25 for Egypt, the MiG 25 and must of the Soviet contingent were supposed withdrawn from Egypt in 1972.

    AWACS E 2C Hawkeye and C 130H Hercules in Cairo West Air Base

    https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-vjW1W3J18dM/Uq93xM6uheI/AAAAAAAACEQ/U_SsukEGysk/s800/Cairo%2520West_3ER.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa

    Note:As a result of the Camp David treaty which returned the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt, this began to receive similar aircraft to its former enemy Israel as : E 2C Hawkeye AWACS, C 130H Hercules, F 4E Phantom II, F 16 A/B/C/D and AH 64A/D Apache

    In 1972 would has been apparent to the West that the displacement of the MiG 25 for Cairo West AB was in order to demonstrate the potential of the MiG-25RB for the West and other countries of the World.

    However in October 1973, after the onslaught of Egypt and Syria against Israel in the Yom Kippur War, the possibility that the MiG-25RB and the interceptor MiG 25P could be stored in underground shelters of the Cairo West Air Base could be a nasty surprise that own offensive against Israel, since the MiG-25RB and maybe the MiG 25P could seized the air bridge for military aid to Israel by the U.S..

    Since as the Israeli Air Force had no means to destroy underground bunkers in the Cairo West AB with those MiG 25 could be stored, and as the MiG 25 were immune to F 4E Phantom II with missiles AIM 4E Sparrow, the only realistic option to destroy those MiG 25 and with it accomplished to establish an air bridge between the U.S. and Israel would be attack with tactical nuclear warheads against Cairo West Air Base.

    In this case the choice of Cairo West as base from MiG 25 would not have been casual by Soviet Union, since this Air Base was near the capital of Egypt and the Nile delta, and this were a densely populated area, in this conditions any attack with nuclear warheads would cause many casualties in civilian population, both by the blast from the nuclear warhead as the residual radioactivity fallout over the region.

    F 4E Phantom II from Egypt near HAS in Cairo West Air Base

    https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-h3xLuSah2ag/Uq93zrymAjI/AAAAAAAACEk/09w_voOGdGw/s800/Cairo%2520West_6E.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa

    Note: In 1973 the only possibility for an image like this would be if some F 4E Phamtom II from Israel crashed in the ground near this HAS after the same had been hit during an attack against Cairo West Air Base.

    Before the withdrawal of the MiG 25RB from Cairo West in June 1972 there were some fear on the part from Israel that the MiG-25RB could be used against Israel with nuclear vectors.

    In the case of the 1973 War, the information that the MiG-25RB could be stored in sealed compartments in underground bunkers in Cairo West raised fears from Israel, as if it decided to use the nuclear weapons on the battlefield to stop the offensive of Egypt, the MiG-25RB in the colors of the Egyptian air force could retaliate against Israel with nuclear weapons provided by the Soviet Union.

    In this condition if Israel decided to use nuclear weapons, the Cairo West Air Base with its MiG 25RB stored in secret should be destroyed first, in order to override a possible retaliation from Egypt with the permission from Soviet Union

    https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-SOJFUfyhaEU/Uq93ztb3P_I/AAAAAAAACEo/ADhQwuFUpow/s800/Cairo%2520West_7ER.jpg

    http://www.flashearth.com/?lat=30.123729&lon=30.906241&z=10.7&r=0&src=msa

    Note: HAS probably built by the Soviets in Cairo West Air Base before the Yom Kippur War in 1973

    Without the air bridge with military aid to Israel would be a matter of time until Israel had to accept a ceasefire under Egypt and Syria terms. For the U.S. the victory of Egypt and Syria with support from Soviet Union to Israel would also be catastrophic, though it was almost certain that this would not happen, since Israel would use its nuclear arsenal to avoid this defeat.

    About the U.S. analyses any possible use of the nuclear warheads over the battlefield by Israel would be several times more catastrophic for the U.S. and West nations that the defeat from Israel, since this would throw most Middle Eastern countries into the arms of the Soviet Union, while others nations would repudiate the U.S. and the West that had been supported Israel and because of those nations could become highly unstable, and all certainly would seek to obtain an arsenal with nuclear warheads.

    However launching nuclear warheads close to a major population center as the city of Cairo by Israel would has incalculable consequences even for the U.S, since this could lead the Soviet Union to intervene directly in the Yom Kippur War, and that could be ended into III World War.

    The last image that U.S and West countries would wish to see should be the flag of the Soviet Union fluttering over the largest oil reserves from the World.

    If the Soviet Union took by any means the oil reserves of the Middle East, after this would be a matter of time before the Soviet Union flag could be fluttering over the entire World, or other possibility that any flag from any nation could no longer fluttering anywhere in the World.

    Strengthened command and control facilities in Cairo West Air Base
    https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-L3Tqu5-9F0E/Uq93t_UsqbI/AAAAAAAACD0/Ue42iIq4dgY/s800/Cairo%2520West_13ER.jpg

    Note: As secret as its own MiG-25RB from Soviet Union would be the datalink communication equipment for the control and command in the ground from MiG-25RB during its reconnaissance and attack missions. The installation and calibration from those equipment’s would require considerable time to be accomplished, however when the MiG 25 RB ‘officially returned’ to Egypt in the last days of the War in 1973, apparently those secret equipment’s were already installed in Cairo West Air Base.

    in reply to: Brazil closer to Boeing on jets deal after Biden visit #2234894
    maurobaggio
    Participant

    In the coming days the President of France will be making an official visit to Brazil , and his delegation should be the President from Dassaul that is the manufacturer of the Rafale F3.

    In preparation for the visit of the President of France and Dassault , the vice president from Dassault and responsible for the Rafale program has been visiting the Brazil for ten days , and during this period had conducted visits and meetings with various Brazilian companies and authorities , among them in particular the Embraer wich the Dassault has a large part of the shares .

    There are some expectations that during the visit of President of France could be reported that the new fighter to be acquired by the Brazilian Air Force would be the Rafale F3 , since the U.S. with it F/A 18 E/F Hornet due to problem with the NSA has been out of competition .

    The current President of Brazil has a close relationship with the current President of France, once after the election in 2010 of the current President of Brazil had been visited first the current President of France.

    In fact this were not great news, since the three last President of Brazil has been a very close relationship with the three last Presidents of France .

    in reply to: Brazil closer to Boeing on jets deal after Biden visit #2243892
    maurobaggio
    Participant

    hmm in 2010, Mirage 2000 production line was already closed for a while. Proposed version for Brazil is F3R btw.
    MIrage 2000-5 and 2000 D are totally diff beasts.

    Actually the proposal to Brazil in 2002 was the Mirage 2000BR, which would be a version of the Mirage 2000-5, and this version should be assembled by Embraer in Brazil under license from Dassault.

    In 2002 the proposal was to transfer the Dassault production line of the Mirage 2000 from France to Embraer in Brazil, so that at some eventual contract of sale of the Dassault from Mirage 2000 to any others countries than Brazil, the Mirage 2000 would be assembled in Brazil under license from Dassault.

    If this proposal from Mirage 2000BR were accepted in 2002 most likely the production line of Mirage 2000 could be still open today, but this would be in Embraer and not at Dassault in France.

    So the improved version of the Mirage 2000 might could be offered to customers from France until today, and the Brazilian Air Force certainly would not have the possibility to acquire the Rafale F3 or even set up the production line in Brazil.

    However it would be much better if the Mirage 2000BR were accepted in 2002 for the Brazilian than the current situation of Brazilian Air Force without any fighter with Mach 2 capability. In that case if Brazilian Air Force would have to acquire new fighters after 2010 certainly it would be some improved version from Mirage 2000BR .

    Brazil has obtained the chance to receive the Rafale F3 only after some ‘mountains’ had been removed in this way, and those ‘mountains’ were removed only after the Su 35M Flanker were offered by Russia in 2002 and strengthened this after the next offer of Su 35S Flanker in 2010.

    While the Brazilian Air Force did not put the French as winners, in the current case the Rafale F3, the Brazilian Air Force will get more 18 years without getting a new fighter.

    For the last three presidents of Brazil, if the fighter is not French then there will not be any new fighter for the Brazilian Air Force.

Viewing 15 posts - 316 through 330 (of 480 total)