rickusn“Apparently the basis for all this is a conflict versus China.”
Not necessarilly.
Although China is a major element in the region it is far from the only consideration and why I listed a view of the other players.
Not the least of which is th influence of Russia.
Indonesia and Indo-China ie Malaysia, Vietnam et al too are ever increasing their effect on the region.
Plus as mentioned political considerations play as big a part as military realities.
See Japan and S. Korea.
rickusn“The Valour is slightly bigger than the Formidable, still I was surprised to see the big difference in range (8000 nm vs 4200 nm), how come? “
Im not exactly sure on the range issue but believe it to be a combination of these two factors:
The displacement difference is quite large actually:
3700FL vs 3200FL ie most of this diffrence is likely given over for fuel on the Valour.
In addition some of the discrepancy ii the range for the Valour is based on 16 knts and the Formidable on 18 knts plus they dont tell us on how many engines. That could be another BIG factor.
Thats off the top of my head IIl try to dig up more.
Also the Valour has a better length to beam ratio which normally increases endurance.
rickusn“Antelope is also an old name IIRC).”
And you do this from Wiki:
“Twelve ships of the Royal Navy have been named HMS Antelope, after the Antelope:
HMS Antelope was a galleon carrying between 38 and 44 guns. She was launched in 1546, rebuilt twice and was burned by parliamentarian sailors at Hellevoetsluis in 1649.
HMS Antelope was a 56-gun third rate great frigate launched in 1651 and wrecked in 1652.
HMS Antelope was a 40-gun fourth rate frigate launched in 1653 as Preston and renamed in 1660. She was sold in 1693.
HMS Antelope was a 54-gun fourth rate launched in 1703. She was rebuilt in 1741 and was sold in 1783.
HMS Antelope was a 14-gun sloop purchased in 1784, and lost in a hurricane later that year.
HMS Antelope was a 14-gun brig launched in 1793 and sold after 1830.
HMS Antelope was a 50-gun fourth rate launched in 1802. She was used as a troopship from 1818, was placed on harbour service from 1824 and was broken up in 1845.
HMS Antelope was a 14-gun schooner, the ex-Spanish prize Firefly. She was purchased in 1808 and broken up in 1814.
HMS Antelope was an iron paddle sloop launched in 1846 and sold in 1883.
HMS Antelope was an Alarm-class torpedo gunboat launched in 1893. She was used for harbour service from 1910 and was sold in 1919.
HMS Antelope was an A-class destroyer launched in 1929 and sold in 1946.
HMS Antelope was a Type 21 frigate launched in 1972 and bombed and sunk in the Falklands War in 1982. “
rickusnThanks.
rickusnQuery:
How sustainable is an optempo of 6 months deployed, 6 months home and then 6 months deployed for RN frigates?
I ask because the Kent & Cumberland have done just that for Persian Gulf/IO deployments and the Iron Duke for the APT(N) deployment.
Or maybe a better question: What are the RN rules for personnel optempo if any?
rickusnGrim901 maybe so but I find this interesting. In particular Sceptre having a refit while still being scheduled for decommisioning soon afterward. A bit perplexing.:
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id=2009-06-01c.275532.h
Nuclear Submarines: Decommissioning
Defence
Written answers and statements, 1 June 2009
Out of service date Vessel
Trafalgar Class
2009 HMS Trafalgar
2011 HMS Turbulent
2013 HMS Tireless
2017 HMS Torbay
2019 HMS Trenchant
2021 HMS Talent
2022 HMS Triumph
Swiftsure Class
2010 HMS Sceptre
rickusnThanks for the responses.
Some questions if I may?
Did the HMS Argyll (F231) which to my knowledge never got a major refit this decade soon be in line for one?
With the service lives of the Type 22s and Type 23s now extended by another four years (HMS Argylls 2019/2023).
https://www.strategyworld.com/militaryforums/8-14783.aspx
Will she soon get a major udgrade? Or just enough repair to keep her functional?
I take it that HMS Sceptre is to be extended in service till 2012 at least with this?:
20th Mar 2009
“Navy’s Oldest Seagoing Vessel Ready for Action AgainHMS Sceptre, the oldest seagoing vessel in the Royal Navy, is ready for patrol after successfully completing an intensive ten-month maintenance and defect-rectification work package.
The Clyde-based submarine has undergone a deep maintenance period (known as a RAMP – Revalidation and Assisted Maintenance Period) which occurs around once every three years. “
Is HMS Trafalger still likley to be decommissioned this year?
rickusn“The only thing that will enable the USAF to get more f-22’s is a major delay in testing of the F-35 (2-4 years) which is not all that unlikely given the huge technical risk the program involves.”
“technical risk” ???????????????
Such as?
I ask because I dont know of any.
The only “risk” I know of is “financial” the F-35 is a far more expensive aircraft than the airframes it is replacing.
The only issue I see with the F-35 is IF it is an effective program.
IMHO the USN should have dropped out long ago.
The USMC has no choice its either this aircraft or the demise of USMC TACAIR. IMHO the F18E/F/G are non-starters for the USMC.
My prediction: IF the Iraq situation ever is resolved(and barring some unforseen event) the USMC will rapidly shrink .
Not that I woukld like (or want) such a scenario to unfold but the ‘handwriting” is already on or maybe always has been on the “wall” as they say.
rickusnThere ahs been alot of talk about paying-0ff(decommissioning) the four Type 22 Batch III frigates. But spending this about of money (20 million pounds = to about $40m?) plus over a year in refit would seem to preclude this dont you think?
Anyway:
HMS Cumberland Rejoins Fleet
London February 21, 2008 – HMS Cumberland was accepted back into the Fleet Scheduling Authority on Friday 8th February 2008. Having successfully completing a 15 month, £20 million refit and regeneration package the main focus been upon improvements to the operating capability through upgrades to the weapon systems and sensors and the propulsion system overhaul. As a result of ‘in project savings’ there was also allowance for upgrading the habitability of crew living and recreational messes resulting in a heightened ‘pride of ownership’ from the entire Ship’s company.
The Fleet Date Inspection is the final formal inspection on completion of the refit period and allows the Ship to make the transition back into operational service. The complex engineering tasks have been achieved ahead of schedule and within budget, which has allowed the Ship’s staff to apply the final polish prior to inspection. Both inspecting officers; Captain Surface Ships, Devonport Flotilla, Captain C Hamp Royal Navy, and Chief Staff Officer (Engineering) to CINCFLEET (CSOE), Captain A D Penny Royal Navy, have served in Cumberland previously and commented on the high materiel state of the Ship and the professionalism and enthusiasm of the Ship’s company. This has been reflected in both the final outcome of the refit and the success of the trials program that have led to this point.
The inspection saw 2 separate teams inspect the entire Ship. Personnel responsible for the respective compartments presented their areas to an exceptionally high standard of materiel readiness and cleanliness. This gave the inspecting teams chance to examine the state of the Ship and to talk to the full range of personnel in every department. The Commanding Officer, Commander P J Sparkes Royal Navy, the officers and Ship’s company of HMS Cumberland now look forward to the demanding program of Operational Sea Training in preparations for future Operations.
Captain Hamp said:
“I thoroughly enjoyed my visit to HMS Cumberland today. The Ship was presented to a very high standard by a motivated and enthusiastic Ship’s company which reflects the firm Command Direction, sound management and strong team spirit that has been generated through the Upkeep period. There is a genuine sense of pride in the Upkeep and Capability upgrades achieved. It is clear that Cumberland has received a very satisfactory Upkeep period and that she is ready for the forthcoming challenge of preparing for and completing Operational Training.
rickusnWhos whining?
Here is an excerpt of comments by the the USN CNO Admiral Roughead.:
http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=4143
“ADM. ROUGHEAD: The patrol that the Russians flew came out — this is something that was really quite common in the days of the Soviet Navy — but as you have seen in recent weeks, they have increased the level of flight activity. But they flew out toward Nimitz. We knew they were coming. We saw them coming. We detected them at the appropriate time. We launched out alert aircraft, who escorted the Russian aircraft. There was an overflight of the carrier. And, you know, from my perspective, everything worked exactly as we train to do and as we expect our people and our commanders to perform.
So I think what we are seeing is a Russian military or Russian Navy that is emerging, particularly in the case of the navy desiring to emerge as a global navy. They recently deployed some ships through the Mediterranean and I believe this is all part of that emergence as a global — in the perspective that I have, a global navy.
So that’s how I see it. I did not consider it to be provocative. And again, the way that our forces responded, our commanders responded, the performance of our systems were — it was exactly what we expected. ”
“ADM. ROUGHEAD: The overflight in this case was around 2,000 feet. And going back into, you know, my experience operating against the Soviets as a much younger naval officer, it was not common for us to overfly the ships. But again, I don’t — I didn’t consider this provocative. “
BTW:
The P-3 was Norwegian and the Kunetsov was well within Norways 200 mile “economic exclusion zone” a far different story than Russian aircraft sorties.
Combine this with the earlier irresponsible operations close to the Norewegain offshore oil rigs.
And you can make a good case for Russain irresponsibility toward and intimidation of the Norwegians.
For what purpose?
But of course the typical Russain response is that its always sombodys elses fault for their nonsense.
Russians should “man up” and take responsibility for their words or actions.
But Ive never seen that happen in my 50+ years of life and probably never will.
rickusnThanks for the info!!!!!!
And great site!!!!!!
Thanks for the link!!!!!!!!!!
rickusnJust more nonsensical US bashing.
LOL
ROTFLMAO
rickusn“It has the advantage that it could supplement the larger & more capable ships in wartime, but I fear that the Treasury might see it as an excuse to cut the number of high-end escorts.”
This is always the dilema.
The USN distanced itsel from the CG “National Security Cutter” program in part because of this and in fact there was talk that the CG should have gone in with the USN LCS program.
However increasingly many believe the USN should buy into the CG program.
But no matter how things turn out for the USN Swerves comment above has and will always be applicable IMHO.
rickusnName calling personal attacks.
In fact I never said everyone was against the US but for those that are such a blanket accusation is the norm.
Surprise. Surprise.
But people certainly havent been paying attention to recent events and developments.
A couple of excerpts from this summers naval exercises that my detractors either choose to dismiss or are ignorant of. There is much,much more on US/Indian relations but it would do little good to p[resent it all. Maybe thouigh my feeble efforts will cause others to educate themselves.:
http://in.reuters.com/article/topNews/idINIndia-29398720070907?pageNumber=3&virtualBrandChannel=0
This is a major coalescing of Asian powers, indicating greater cooperation,” said Walter Andersen, a former U.S. State Department analyst who is now at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies.
He said both New Delhi and Washington were being careful not to portray the wargames as being anti-Chinese.
“But it provides leverage to keep them concerned about what can happen, that is, ‘if you get too nasty with us, we always have friends elsewhere’,” he said.
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/215163.html
“With the five-nation Malabar 07-2 naval exercise entering its final two days today, the buzzword on board the Kitty Hawk — the US carrier coordinating the 30-warship mock battle — was the level of “interoperability” achieved by the participating Navies of India, US, Australia, Japan and Singapore.”
A Russian view of the strategic stage.:
http://mdb.cast.ru/mdb/3-2007/ip/article1/
“From the Russian point of view, the retention of a significant nuclear retaliatory capability by Russia remains the best guarantee of peace for the whole world. The US missile defence system undermines the Russian deterrent and its ability to fulfill this role. “
“The only practical way for Russia to counteract the steady advancement of American strategic superiority is to purchase new land and sea-based ballistic missiles. There is no question that Russia can presently afford such purchases, but the deployment for instance, of 30-50 land-based ICBMs, including those with multiple warheads like the recently tested RS-24, would require an annual defence budget increase of at least 20% after 2007. This is in line with planned defence spending increases, but a new escalation of nuclear capabilities after a period of nuclear disarmament would surely have a negative effect on international politics, destabilize relations among the nuclear powers, and increase the potential for an accidental or unintended triggering of nuclear war. Efforts to control the non-proliferation of nuclear weapons will also be discredited, but these factors clearly are clearly less significant for Russia than the necessity of maintaining the effectiveness of its nuclear forces. “
Do you also deny my historical precedents?
Do you also deny the German/Russain recent collaborations?
I knew full well I would be dismissed and belittled.
But no amount of such attacks can change the truth.
Try as hard as you might.
BTW I dont read novels.
“confused, paranoid, delusional,conspiracy” doubful.
Realistic, pragmatic, practical, observant, informed, clear-headed, open minded, are more like it.
Not perfect by any means but certainly undeserving of such ludircrous unflattering characterizations.
But then its really not about “deserve” is it?
Just about attempting to destroy any who disagree with your preformed, and hardened views.
All else is anathema is it not?
And while I agree that some of the info coming out about the Admiarl Nakhimov doesnt seem to make sense neither does the protracted refurbishment of the Gorshkov.
But then getting any reliable info out of either Russia or China is and always has been extremely difficult.
This is a telling line presented above:
“There is no question that Russia can presently afford such purchases,”
But a steadfast refusal to live up to their contractual agreements that are rather minor when considering the Russain Nuclaer renewal IMHO there is far more to it. And the recent Indian/US cooperation is the likely culprit.
The Russain and Chines governmnets are still authoritarian in nature make no mistake and they cant realistically compared to the far more open governments and societys of the Western democracies no matter the faults and shortcomings of those entities.
But the reason I didnt present more evidence to begin with is because of just this sort of nonsensical undocumented denial.
So why more?
Cant help myself always trying to educate the uneducated and enlighten the unenlightened.
But think and believe what you will as I know no amount of evidence can ever convince the unconvinceable.
But I must make some effort from time to time it is a duty irregardless of the personal consequences.
I really hate politics and would rather discuss nuts and bolts but they are in fact part and parcel of naval affairs.
Look forward to more naval discussions.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ill be off visiting for the next few days.
Hope you all dont miss me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
rickusnSorry Brez but I disagree with your assessment.
Unless you can provide some type of documentation to back it up Ill stick with what Ive read.
There are four Sovs in the Pacific fleet either modernized or modernizing along with a Slava class cruiser.
Russia wants nothing better than to be underestimated when it and China choose to take out the USN carriers they dont want to telegraph their intentions and actions.
The “real” reason that the Gorshkov has been delayed to India has nothing to do with either funding or technical matters.
When China and Russia make their soon to come move to eliminate the USN carriers they dont want India to in anyway help the USN or fill the vacuum created.
Much less to have their own weapon systems used against them.
The Russians may be alot of things but stupid isnt one of them.
Their own carrier ambitions are not fueled by any desire to counter, match or confront the USN carriers but to fill the void created on the USN carrier demise.
Russia is fully prepared to risk sacrifice of its Cold War relic carrier killer DDG/CG and SSGN fleet to send the USN carriers to the bottom of the ocean.
They fully intend on blaming the US for having to take this action and it will start with a preemptive attck on the combined Japanes/USN fleet in Japan.
Stating categorically(and with some justification) that “preemption” is the USs own strategy and of course Japan has used the strategy in the past ever hear of Pearl Harbor? and earlier?:
“However, three hours before Japan’s declaration of war was received by the Russian Government, Japan attacked the Russian Far East Fleet at Port Arthur. Tsar Nicholas II was stunned by news of the attack. He could not believe that Japan could initiate a warlike act without a formal declaration of war, and had been assured by his ministers that the Japanese would not fight. “
Its about payback and retaliation and vindication and righting the wrongs of the demise of the USSR and the older creation of Taiwan.
So neither country can complain or cry foul.
If they do and the USN threatens or attempts nuclear retaliation(the US only true option at that point) Russia will again preempt this course of events in addition to taking out the UK.
France will fold up no matter what transpires and the Russsians/Germans are already once again allies with plans to divvy up the Baltic Sea and control of Eastern Europe. (SEE Russo/Germanic Baltic Sea pipeline project and recent bilateral security arrangements along with both countries ostracising Poland yet again.)
The rewards far outweigh the risks.
Ya dont fool me for a second Brez.
You ALWAYS ask questions about the Russian Fleet and then when told the truth not only deny it but denigrate the Russian Navy.
I caught you yet again.
For what purpose?
The World is on the cusp of a “New World Order” and there is no place or room for either the US or any of its allies.
Deny it if you will but all developments point in that direction and are accelerating.
Its why Poland and the Baltic states are scared out of their wits.
S. Koreas recent rapprochment with Russia and copntinuing hatred for Japan is another sign.
The recent Chinese snub of the USN wasnt about the Dalai Lama. Spare me.
That among other developments some which Ive related others which I can.
But why? Its all their everyday in the media to see, hear and read.
The worst part is that many American citizens, some in uniform, are aiding and abetting the coming treachery.
In fact entire influential discussion sites and US media concerns are committed to Russian/Chinese apology under the pretense of being pro-American and designed to silence and discredit any American who points out their nefarious agenda.
Its ugly now and will get far uglier soon.
The world needs to wake up before it is once again plunged into a dark age that will dwarf all previous manifestations.
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