WJ244In the late 60’s/early 70’s the local paper “The Evening Echo” ran a feature on Foulness. They were given access to the White City area and published photos of TSR2 XR219 and the Bristol 188 standing together both intact. The Bristol subsequently escaped to Cosford. The TSR2 was sadly lost even though there was a good deal of lobbying to rescue the only flyer from destruction.
I remember the Scimitars arrivng at Southend where they were usually parked for a while before disappearing presumerably by lorry but I don’t remember any of them being dismantled at Southend so maybe they went in one piece on a low loader.
Probably late 70’s there seemed to be quite a big clear out at the ranges and lorries full of aircraft sections were often parked overnight in the derelict goods yard at Rochford station where all the local spotters had a good poke around to find serial nos. There seemed to be plenty of TSR2 bits on the lorries and I seem to remember some Lightning bits as well.
I have only ever been onto the island once and little was visible from the road. We were told not to stop until we reached the village and others have said that anyone who stopped was soon checked out by security patrols.
The place definitely has an air of mystery to it.
WJ244To quote WJ244: ……”sold with a file containing photos and written details of what was repaired and replaced during restoration. If the file is maintained future purchasers know exactly what they are getting for their money.”
My point in post #45 is that such a file surely is an airworthiness requirement and as such, ought to contain precise details of the restoration (or long overdue repairs)!
Aerial
Unfortunately I have never worked on airworthy machines and certainly never been inviolved in a restoration to fly so I wasn’t aware of the paperwork requirements for a certificate of airworthiness. I was just trying to suggest a way of keeping everything honest for the future.
It is probably fair to say that the historic race car world has more than its fair share of cars with dubious provenance. It is too late to right all the wrongs there but in the aviation world there have been comparatively few restorations to fly from basket cases (or worse condition) and it is probably not too late to maintain a history file for each airframe which could be shown to any prospective purchaser so that future buyers know exactly what they are getting for their money. Maybe some feel that there is no need to do so but many if the posts on this forum are requesting information about specific airframes which has been lost in the mists of time so maybe some form of history document is appropriate.
WJ244The perfume spray was at the 1968 Southend Air Show and I think the Blanik was also on the bill that day.
I am surprised no one has mentioned the Turboporters that Ladi used to fly. His short take offs and landiings were pretty unbelievable and he often used to exchange banter with the tower when he was on finals about the expected length of his landing run.
He also displayed the Cmelak Bumble Bee at very low level during th opening display for the museum. An exceptional pilot and one who added some colour to the Southend scene at the time.
WJ244[QUOTE=I can think of many Spitfires, restored and in process, that don’t “feel” right. They are the ones without soul.[/QUOTE]
I think I know what you mean. I remember seeing a newly restored SE5E sat beside the Shuttleworth SE5A at Old Warden a few years ago and it just seemed that something about the newly restored aircraft wasn’t quite right.
It slowly dawned that it was too perfect. Every panel was absolutely straight and it had no patina of wear whereas the Shuttleworth aircraft had a slightly used look through years of flying and maintenance.
I am sure that given a few years of flying all new restorations acquire that patina and at the same time will regain their soul.
In my view the Shuttleworth Sopwith Triplane and Bristol M1C are both good examples of the case for building what I suppose should rightfully called reproductions. Both are superb aeroplanes built as near to the original spec as possible and to all intents and purposes are late build WW1 machines with all the flying characteristics and engine management problems of the originals. Having been around for a few years now both have acquired that patina and their own soul. Their histories are also well documented and if they were ever to be available for sale prospective purchasers should/would be well aware that they were not being offered a genuine WW1 airframe with a combat/operational history.
Take also the Shuttleworth DH88 Comet. The rebuild to fly meant that some structure was rebuilt and most of the internal systems had to be recreated as they were stripped out when it was hung up at The Festival Of Britain long before Shuttleworth ever laid hands on the aeroplane. In this particular case what was the better option? Do you go with keeping a stripped out shell which has lost much of its history and soul anyway or rebuild to create a machine which can fly and at worst taxy under its own power again. I for one gained huge pleasure from seeing the DH88 in the air and long to see it airborne again before too long. In this particular case I think the right option was chosen although it is a shame that other circumstances have led to the DH88 being grounded again for so long.
I agree that history has its place and it is entirely appropriate in a static airframe to use as much original material as possible in a restoration but when it comes to rebuilding to fly it is inevitable that, in most cases, a lot of new material will be needed to make the aircraft safe. I am sure that in many warbird owners eyes a provenance does affect the value of an aircraft so maybe it would be a good idea to follow the example of many in the classic car world where vehicles are often sold with a file containing photos and written details of what was repaired and replaced during restoration. If the file is maintained future purchasers know exactly what they are getting for their money.
WJ244Came across these when I dug out and scanned my museum pictures for Old Fart and thought you might like to see the Fiat in happier times. As you can see she still carries the same paint scheme that I helped the sprayer apply at Southend when I was about 15/16 years old – yes you’re right it was a long time ago!
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Please remember the above are my copyright and require permission to reuse on the web or in print. Thanks
WJ244Definitely a replica in fibreglass, I believe. There used to be a Hurricane next to it and I seem to remember that a few years ago they were reported as being damaged and generally in fairly poor condition but maybe they have been repaired since then.
WJ244I have read this thread with great interest particularly as I was aware of the problems with the rather doubtful claims made for some cars in the historic racing world.
I remember attending a motorports show about 20 years ago where two examples of an F1 car by the same manufacturer and from the same season when the team had won the world championship were on show. Both cars carried the same chassis no on their constructors plate and this just happened to be the chassis no of the car supposedly used all season by one driver to win the world championship. No doubt there was an explanation for this apparent duplication and it can only be hoped that the duplication and the reasons behind it were/are made clear to any future purchasers of either car.
I also know of a 60’s GT car which has reappeared in recent years which was totally destroyed by fire during a race in the 60’s so presumerably little of the original car survives other than (presumerably) the chassis plate.
I have no problem with the above or with the amount of original material that goes into the rebuild of any historic/vintage aeroplane provided that all buyers after the original rebuilder are aware of the full history of their potential purchase including the fact (where relevant) that their possible acquisition may have been rebuilt from a small pile of bits and therefore contains a minmal amount of original parts but does have a continuous provenance.
There is another posting on this forum querying the amount of original material that will be contained within a Hurricane rebuild. The answer to that question is of no huge concern to me. What is of more importance is that any future buyer is aware of the content of the rebuild as this may, in the eyes of some buyers/sellers affect the value of the aeroplane and that the unused parts left over after restoration aren’t used by someone to create a clone which someone then uses to try to claim the same airframe identity.
To me honesty is the main thing and Dennis Jenkinson was well aware that in the historic race car world profit was (not surprisingly) in many cases put way before honesty.
WJ244Merry Xmas and a happy new year to everyone. It has been a real pleasure finding and being able to contribute to the forum.
WJ244I think there is some confusion here. The Meteor which crashed in Westcliff fell onto Hainault Avenue and the surrounding roads including Beedell Avenue, Ramuz Drive and Brightwell Avenue. These are maybe half a mile or less from Roots Hall as one end of Roots Hall stadium backs onto the rear gardens of the houses in Shakespeare Drive – a road which runs parallel with those where the aircraft came down. I just used Roots Hall as a nearby landmark which would help anyone who didn’t know Southend too well to get an idea of the area of the crash site. If I misled anyone into thinking there were 3 seperate incidents then I apologise.
WJ244I must have missed the original post about this accident.
The posts on the Southend forum refer to a completely different incident which occured a few roads away from Southend United football ground at Roots Hall which is not too far from the town centre. I remember that there used to be an original newspaper cutting about the Westcliff accident in the entrance foyer at the Historic Aircraft Museum.
The photos of the Benfleet accident are in the Castlepoint Bus Museum in Point Road, Canvey Island.
http://www.castlepointtransportmuseum.co.uk/index.htm
Sorry but I don’t know the name of the gent that showed me round who had witnessed the accident but if it is any help his wife runs the museum shop.
Can anyone help with a photo please preferably of WF700 but any 41 Squadron Meteor F8 would be better then the T7 picture they have on the board now.
WJ244This is only from memory but might be a bit of help.
I always thought that only the Lancaster and possibly the Sabre ever got to Lavenham but I could well be wrong.
Bob Batt at Southend worked/had worked for Aviation Traders and bought EXF with a view to restoring her to fly again but my understanding was that the aircraft was in very bad condition generally and that having the wings sawn off made it even more difficult. I don’t know why EXF never made it to Southend where Bob Batt based his Proctor and Prentice but presumerably some parts made it to Southend as part of the early restoration work. I believe that by this time Bob Batt was getting on in years and maybe he conceded that he would never be able to finish the restoration and passed the airframe on to Tom Storey and Martin Barraclough.
One thing does seem clear and that is that EXF has had a hard and often unlucky life. Lets hope her future continues to be much brighter than some areas of her past.
WJ244I would have to back up others here and say that a warbird is not a good investment as an appreciating asset. The issues of maintenance etc have already been covered but when determining values then provenance must also count for a great deal.
A genuine wartime Spitfire with a continuous provenance (possibly as examples aircraft like MH434 and AR213) must be worth more to many owners than a wartime aircraft which is basically little more than the original constructors plate attached to what is an almost completely new airframe.
Please don’t get me wrong I am not knocking the people who rebuild complete wrecks which require such major parts replacement – It is to their credit that we are able to see and appreciate so many airworthy warbirds – I am just saying that the provenance can vastly affect the value.
The same thing is true in historic motorsport. There are cars with continuous histories which are worth a great deal more than similar cars which have been rebuilt from burnt out wrecks. Both have their place but when it comes to buying and selling values for continuous provenance cars and rebuilds can be poles apart.
WJ244As I said I got my 3 volumes almost by accident when I was about 13 or so at a guess. If you look they were printed by a company called Leates where my dad worked for many years. It was only recemtly that I realised hoiw hard it was to find copies. Mine are pretty well thumbed as I used to spend hours poring over details and pictures of aircraft which I would love to have seen. Great books and a great reference work even all these years later.
WJ244Avion Ancien I don’t know where you sourced your info but my father was a printer and years ago he printed Air Britain Impressments Log and I am lucky enough to have copies of volumes 2,3 and 4 which he brought home for me.
From the info in there it seems that Spartan Cruiser G-ACYL was only with the ATC for 3 months before it deteriorated beyond repair. This seems a very short time so it must have either been very poor when they got it or was involved in some kind of mishap.
Scion G-ACJI was the prototype.
Parnall Heck G-AFKF was kept at Aberysychan Secondary School, West Monmouthshire and there is still an Aberysychan Comprehensive School on the web in that area so it may be someone at the school has grandparents who would remember the ATC and maybe even the fate of the Heck.
Hope this might be a little help. There was no more info on the other aircraft you listed.
WJ244Around 1968 1312 Sqdn at Southend acquired Vampire (T11 ?) WZ458 which was kept near Southend Light Aviation Centre at the end of the old BKS hangar. It gradually fell into disrepair and as far as I know was probably scrapped sometime in the 80’s. To be fair it must have been an uphill task from the start trying to maintain a Vampire outside with little funding or equipment and for that reason they probably weren’t the most suitable aircraft fpr an ATC unit.
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