TeerYes indeed for every MKI, theres an AJT…
For every T-72 induction, theres an artillery what artillery ….
Indias procurement f**ups are no better than the UKs come to think of it…I daresay the UK bureaucrats have been far less callous than those of Indias in certain cases.
That said, which nations procurement may serve as a benchmark…Israels? But even they have a huge freebie component to their defense budget…
TeerLet’s not forget that India has two potents foes at her (its?his?) borders, China and Pakistan, whereas UK is all about wars far from home.
Coincidentally, India is “just” preparing for an eventual war, whereas UK is fighting one at the moment (and recently was fighting 2).
Zedro, fair point about “expeditionary warfare” – but as far as wars go, India has been waging an undeclared ie counter guerilla war for the past two decades in first the Punjab & then Kashmir. Tally up the number of Indians killed – military and civilian & it will be a nasty bit. Second, India fought a brutal mountain war in 1999, almost went to war in 2001, and more recently, last year. So its not “all quiet” in India & preparations for a big one. Not to mention the umpteen Islamist attacks on population centers as well, most recent being on 26/11 last year at Mumbai. Given all that, India actually underspends versus its defence needs.
Why – is a loaded question. Lets just say, domestic politics & callousness in equal measure.
I would also be eager to know the R&D budget of both countries (and R&D/maintenance ratio), because it feels like UK is developing most of her hardware (either alone or jointly), whereas India is doing less indigenous developments.
And in the end, don’t forget this “nice” Military-industrial complex which does most of UK hardware (and of any western countries for that matter) : these guys are real genius when it comes to increase prices like hell !
On the other hand, Russia military industry is in pretty different position, which reflects positively on the kit’s prices.
I dont have the numbers on the UK ratio to compare with….
TeerNot jingoistic only reality people should not have any reason to take umbrage at this..
Reality as in the eyes of the beholder perhaps. Otherwise..nope.
TeerAbsolutely factual. You replied as if I had said everything on that list is something India lacks completely, which is incorrect. They are examples of capabilities which the UK but not India has, or which the UK has more of than India. India does not currently have any SSNs, for example, has far less tanker & AEW capability than the UK, only one SSBN building, & none operational. And so on for the other categories.
You cite future plans. I listed current capabilities.
Of course, India has far greater capabilities than the UK in some other areas.
That doesnt appear to be what your statement implies though:
The UK has much greater capabilities in some areas than India, & some that India lacks altogether, e.g. SSBNs, SSNs, AEW, ELINT, tanker, & amphibious shipping.
The sentence structure has the examples come as being supportive of the second statement, after the comma. Note that I was not the only one who interpreted your statement thus – so did Rahulm.
Anyways..
That apart, current capabilities versus future capabilities torpedo’s the discussion as the entire discussion premise seems to hinge upon the “future” seeing a drop in the UKs capabilities.
jbritchford notes:
The RAF may be cut yet further in coming years, to the smallest number of aircraft and personell in it’s history. Whilst the systems in its inventory may be the best they have ever operated, the small numbers owned certainly affect capability.
hence my statements in that vein.
TeerFirst and foremost, the Eurofighter Typhoon/ LM, BAE,NG F-35 mix gives the RAF, for all it’s lack of size, a potency far in advance of the SU-30. The Typhoon on it’s own probably possesses enough of a combat edge, and when mixed with the E-3 sentry would give a far better integrated air defence than anything india could put up in the air – particularly in terms of information flow, even when taking the Phalcon into account.
Its good you said probably – because that qualifies it as your opinion, and your opinion alone, because its nowhere near that cut and dry.
And, as and when the UK operates the Typhoon and around 50-100 odd JSFs (latest per this forum itself), India is aiming for 280 MKIs, 126-200 MMRCAs (for which competition the EF is a contender) & 120-150 odd LCA MK2s. Initial estimates (Parliamentary submissions) state a force of around 180 PAK-FA/FGFAs as well. Again, “potency far in advance etc” of these numbers – quite doubtful.
As regards information flow – the Phalcon is a generation ahead of the E-3 Sentry. If you had said the Boeing MESA equipped Wedgetail – perhaps that would have been a good comparison but the RAF is not acquiring them AFAIK. Furthermore, India’s intentions for an AWACS force are also quite large, keeping in mind its requirements & geography. My own post is there on this forum with the numbers but some 20 odd AWACS et al were the number iirc.
On the ground, would you really swap a Challenger 2 for an Arjun or a T-90?
How many Challenger 2’s btw? India’s T-90 production alone encompasses 1600 odd units. There are 124 Arjuns on order & with likelihood more may come. Also, India is upgrading almost all its existing T-72 (1700 tanks plus) fleet to modern standards as well. They would be regarded as a threat, when properly tactically utilized even by the most heavily frontally armoured tanks today.
Furthermore, by 2020, the Indian Army aims for a NGMBT – next gen MBT for which requirements are being drawn up & may well end up a codevelopment of the Russian T-95 program.
So again, things are not as cut and dry as you state them to be.
Again information flow is better when taking the ASTOR platform into account, as well as current and future UAV developments.
ASTOR yes, and credit where credit is due. This is arguably the “weakest link” in the Indian Army/AF ORBAT so far, but there are apparently plans to develop a system of this nature. In the meanwhile though, the Indian AF/Army both have a number of Heron UAVs equipped with SAR/GMTI payloads and they make do. About current & future UAV developments, the question again is – which side aims to induct them in substantial number and is it very ahead of the other? I’d wager both India & the UK have substantial plans. India has a MALE in development, a NRUAV with IAI, plus other local designs and already has fair numbers of Herons, Searcher2s plus local designs. So its not as one sided as the above statements infer.
The rest I’ll let slide, because all this is dangerously treading into mine is bigger than yours territory, especially EF must must be better than xxx & it really is a waste of time.
But all I’ll say is this, jbritchford made a very pertinent point about why india has the ‘up’ in numbers viz cheaper russian platforms while thiazi made the point about why the expensive “buy local” option may in fact be necessary…
All the rest is naval gazing. As things go, India still does not spend enough on defence per most analysts or even have a coherent security policy (as Mumbai showed) as its focus remains firmly on development (and its politicians emphasis on pelft for their chosen votebanks) but as the economic growth broadbases, the overall amounts spent on defence will increase even further. Of course, there will be the impact of higher costs for a more developed population but modernization should pick up.
TeerNot a single confirmed open source proven citation yet, bar random claims on the net.
TeerWill Akash replace the S-125 and be scattered about various IAF bases?
The S-125s will be replaced by a mixture of Akashs, MRSAMs, and something else.
TeerThat’s a fair point, but I’d still like input on the equipment question, would the RAF be better off fielding a larger number of cheaper although a little less capable aircraft?
I think yes, but politics will make it a NO.
I mean, the UK choose the Rafale f.e. over the JSF? Or perish the thought, an upgraded Su-33 kitted out with BAe and Selex gear?
And frankly – even the little less capable aspect seems doubtful in todays day and age, when umpteen OEMs are around to give top notch kit which can be integrated.
Just look at the Su-30 MKI, it already has new EW kit (and some reports suggest even that may have been upgraded), LDP fit, long range radar recce sensors & several new weapons, apart from what came with the original package. And by 2011 – a new upgrade to the baseline will start, when the original fit itself is still competitive against 4.5G fighters being inducted today!
Plus, numbers have been upped from 50 to 190 (140 local production w/deep TOT) to 230, and now, reports suggest another 50 to take numbers up to 280.
This would have been VERY hard for India to pull off, IF the base fighter itself came in at the $ 100 Million plus level.
TeerThe UK has much greater capabilities in some areas than India, & some that India lacks altogether, e.g. SSBNs, SSNs, AEW, ELINT, tanker, & amphibious shipping. Some of these capabilities are expensive to buy & operate. Note that they’re all capital-intensive, rather than labour-intensive, reflecting the different cost structures of India & the UK.
Ermmm…not really factual there:
India operates several Avros & B737s in the ELINT role. The Phalcons also have ELINT capability. So do, reports suggest – some of the Israeli UAVs India has purchased. The Indian Navy has Do-228s with a local ESM fit & datalinks. India is currently working on a new generation of ELINT capabilities including satellite mounted systems.
AEW? Phalcons are AWACS – more than AEW. There is a local AEW&C program as well, going quite decently. The Ka-31s used by the IN are for AEW.
Tanker? Presumably, AF tankers – not fleet tankers for the Navy, were what you referred to. The IAF has six tankers as its IL-78 MKIs part of its MARS squadron. It intends to purchase 6-12 more, the Airbus tanker is the lead contender. India’s MKIs are also buddy refuelling capable – they operate Cobham (UK) pods & can refuel other platforms as well, eg Mirage 2000s.
Amphibious shipping? India does have LSTs…
SSBN — well thats the recently launched Arihant class.
SSN — in the works apparently, to act as escorts for the Arihant class, probably based on the Akula 2 design..
Basically, it all boils down to the high cost of manpower in the west, and the differential between expensive gold plated programs (some with well deserved greater capability, some with marginal utility at best, and some which are just not there..) and India’s approach..
India’s approach so far..is to take (relatively) cheaper Russian platforms and add Israeli, french, indian gear to it…or make its own…both work out cheaper than developing own kit in the west. Things might change though as India turns to the west, eg P8I, C-130J etc….and the budget may have to rise to keep pace…!!
TeerThe Akash is a low-medium alt SAM with a focus on the former. A single seater pilot will really find it hard to keep a lookout for SAM trails, especially if he is flying at low level with a warload, which is what the Akash is designed to prevent.
TeerOne of the prereqs of Indian involvement, and incidentally the key issue that has dogged negotiations is this exact thing. India’s position is that it will not compromise on this aspect.
TeerAkash video:
Includes tests of the T-72 based units in the soft Rajasthan sand, and live fire trials at ITR Chandipore.
TeerIndia could do with a few of them harriers. If the Gorshkov gets delayed further and we attrit a few more SHars, we can take yours, put pointy noses on them and play at having a naval strike package. :rolleyes:
TeerIs this just a proposal or a certainty decked up as a proposal? The UK press doth seem to revel in doom and gloom stories.
TeerWhat portion of India’s budget goes towards the Military? How can they afford all these fighters while at the same time developing SSBN’s, new Aircraft Carriers etc?
There GDP is only 20% higher then ours (Australia) but they seem to be spending a heck of a lot more money.
To add to what quadbike and swerve said, just some numbers depicted graphically:
http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=wb-wdi&met=ms_mil_xpnd_gd_zs&idim=country:IND&q=military+spending+as+%25+of+GDP#met=ms_mil_xpnd_gd_zs&idim=country:IND:AUS
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