Hypersonic Brahmos – pros and cons

Pros – gives India a missile able to penetrate the most heavy SAM networks with a speed of Mach 6-7

Cons – with a range of 300 km, it still lacks the “range” of a 1000 Km class system

Good enough tho, while the Nirbhay gets ready for longer ranged missions.

He did it wrong. He is trying to force an entire nation to do what he wants or sees right. Which will not happen.

He did his job which was to act as an independent evaluator of the test effort. Do understand what that means.

You have ran out of arguments and is reduced to pointing out spelling mistakes.

Your grammar isnt too hot either, perhaps some english courses would help before you present that much vaunted paper of yours, hmm?

And no, I am not arguing. I am merely pointing out the facts, as unpleasant as they are to your rather sheltered, politically biased worldview.

I am confident when my government states that our nuclear tests have been successful and believe in the official line. You have not much choice the main opposition does the same. Throw tantrums all you like.

Hiding behind the Govt. convinces none; the Govt. of the day, irrespective of the party, prefers to take the path of least difficulty, i.e. shirk from hard decisions.

No it is not beyond my knowledge when the establishment and the party which headed the former government is clear and definite in its public briefings. He is an accomplished scientist but by no means a distinguished one. He is only famous because of this row now.

It is beyond your knowledge since your domain knowledge in this field is quite limited.
Your statements in this discussion also bear that out.

Saying that the “establishment” says so and the “government says so” is useless.

Its an appeal to authority which without your own ability to determine the truth, is meaningless.

Secondly, you again demonstrate a lack of knowledge viz the topic when you say that he is “only famous because of this row now” – on the one hand you go on and on about strategic analysts…

Yet you are unaware of one of India’s foremost strategic analysts, one who couples a career in nuclear weapons development with analysis which capability few have, the world over.

I know who my God is.

Quoting Tabloids which are not worth the bandwidth they are hosted on or paper they are printed on do not count. The question is has this been accepted internationally, like for example Americans acknowledge A.Q Khans proliferation. The answer is no. The rest of your comment does not warrant a reply.

A modicum of research would do you good before you make such statements.

The reference quoted above in the article is anything but a tabloid but a reputed scientific journal. That you equate it to a tabloid shows the lack of depth you bring to the discussion at hand.

Some one who has a view that is not accepted by his country’s government. Like I said a lone voice here or there does not make any difference. Yet another conspiracy theorist.

You seem to be developing a habit of dismissing anyone who rubbishes your claims as a “conspiracy theorist”.

Interesting you bring up AQ Khan in the previous comment – then perhaps you need to read this about what AQ Khan says about his partners, including the PRC.

As sins go, they were big: Pakistan had been spreading nuclear technology for years. The first customer for one of its enrichment plants was China — which itself had supplied Pakistan with enough highly enriched uranium for two nuclear bombs in the summer of 1982.

There it was in the letter: “We put up a centrifuge plant at Hanzhong (250km southwest of Xian).” It went on: “The Chinese gave us drawings of the nuclear weapon, gave us 50kg of enriched uranium, gave us 10 tons of UF6 (natural) and 5 tons of UF6 (3%).” (UF6 is uranium hexafluoride, the gaseous feedstock for an enrichment plant.)

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article6839044.ece

Yet another example of how little you know about the topic.

From your beloved Source “Is the world safer or more dangerous with all these powers?
The world is safer for having all the permanent UN Security Council members possess nuclear weapons. I think having North Korea, Pakistan, and India is probably not a good idea. Nuclear proliferation, above all, is not inevitable as many thought at the dawn of the nuclear age.“

So? Thats the authors view that the aforesaid nations should not possess nukes. He is welcome to that opinion & has a right to have it. Relevance to the topic?

You either accept everything some says as good and true or you discard them all, your selectively myopic.

You are mistaking me for somebody called Ante Climax or Doby Mick.

1. I was only trying to let you know getting a PhD is not much of an accomplishment these days. I will have one in a year, there are time constraints before one can pass a course or submit a thesis. Only people who have done it would understand.

“These days” and dont forget the field. Santhanam is a Phd in a technical field and 40 years of accomplishment to back it up.

To compare your yet to be achieved degree to his actual work ex + academics, is a sad joke. Achieve something first, please.

The Call Center swipe is the reason why i disclosed to some folks here what I do, but still if it gives you more confidence thinking that I work in a call center by all means do so. You only get experience as you get old, experience is good, but it is by no means substitute for genius. There are younger scientists who has already accomplished more than Santhanam has in all his 40 years of service. You are singing his praises now because he is trying to steal the show now.

The call center comment was not a swipe. It was based on your posting habits wherein you seem to be up all night posting 1-2 line comments on the board as if it were an aid to staying awake.

That apart, your comments about genius are even more amusing.

Who are these younger scientists you are talking about and who/ what exactly determines their “genius”?

Clearly, you need to be aware of what Edison said.

Genius is one percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration

This is probably the most famous line uttered by the inventor Thomas Alva Edison. If further explanation of the meaning is required he provided it by completing the quotation thus:

“I never did anything worth doing by accident, nor did any of my inventions come by accident. They came by work.”

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/146600.html

No actually you are usually paid for what you are worth.

How much are you paid, Ante/ Doby Mick?

He reminds me of an old man looking back at his life and regrets doing what he did, thinking may be should have done research work outside the establishment and earned more accolades. A man who is jealous of his peers trying to get an instant shot at fame.

Ah, we are blessed with a telepath now.
So a man who has risen to the top of his profession, one who is so well respected that the establishment cannot hurt him, now wishes he had done research work outside the establishment – why?

Because Ante/Doby thinks so.

And the AEC has said we have the ability to make TN warheads and that the test was successful. End of.

The same AEC with the same members who have yet to operationalize a single TN. Salt, please.

That he is appointed at the IDSA does not change anything. Majority of the strategic analysts and think tanks in this country has stated that we have enough deterrence even without the TN weapon.

I see, so being the head of the foremost GOI institution for strategic analysis does not change anything. Keep moving the goalposts, keep digging holes..

It says more about the ancient world you try to live in. I have done well with what I do so far. I have most of my life ahead of me, he has most of it behind him, it is unfair to compare people at different stages of their lives. And he ranks quite low among scientists of his age.

Oh I see. It is unfair to compare you to Santhanam because you are at “different stages of your career” – is that why you called him a dog?

And how would you know that he ranks low or high?

When was the last time you worked in BARC or DRDO or for that matter IDSA or even the Govt of India.

Your comments are bizarre.

For the 100th time, because you seem to be lacking comprehension I did not call the man a dog, I likened the way he is talking to a Pomeranian barking non stop for attention. Do not twist my words to suite your ends.

Big difference – somehow I & the rest of the members cant seem to understand the nuance you seem to convey in your wisdom filled posts.

Lets try an experiment, do tell the first person you meet tomorrow that he is “barking like a dog” to his face & then try your above explanation and see if it gets anywhere.

Seriously, dont play word games here. Admit what you did, apologize and move on.

I live near VSSC I see scientists working there, waking up in the morning walking to the bus station and boarding the bus to go to work and coming back in the evening. I have seen them retire, their kids working in the same place as well. I have not seen anything special or excellent about them.

I see, so “seeing scientists” = “knowing how they are”. Wonderful.

How many years of scientific research do you have under your belt? 10, 20, 30, 40?

They are obviously very good collectively like an efficient pack of ants, but as individual units they are not the best of brains.

And this profound insight comes from watching such educational documentaries as “the ant bully” and other research pieces I presume?

For me Santhanam is just that working for BARC and DRDO rather than ISRO, an efficient ant in a group of dedicated hard working scientists, but not a genius to stand above his Peers. Like a Kalam or a Sarabhai or a Bhaba.

Ah, but a few moments back you were saying Kalam was not really good enough – a controversial scientist, thats what you said.

Change like the weather, so as to defend outrageous claims. Pity your twisting and turning isnt good enough.

I only said he discredited the nation because you made him out to be a national hero.

He is an accomplished man with the guts to speak the truth, whether he is a hero or not is a different matter. If speaking the truth = discrediting the nation, I wonder about your frame of reference.

Firstly accomplishments are mostly rewarded at least in ones home country. I am yet to see anything of the sort given to Santhanam. How many international papers have he presented. This is how you judge a scholar or a scientist.

Given you know next to nothing about Santhanam, including the fact he was awarded the Padma Shree, was a distinguished contributor to IDSA and led it, and was the DRDO lead at Pokhran, your statements about “yet to see anything” dont surprise me a whit.

Secondly I am Judging him because he is judging others. I did not call him a dog, i explained this in this very post and the post before.

He and his peers are fit to pass comments on the topic. What are your qualifications in nuclear technology to imply that he was a dog (oh wait, no- barking like a dog, big difference!)

That quote had nothing to do with KS, it was directed at matt because he was paranoid about China. I explained it in another post. Seems how much you read before react.

How do you know Matt was “paranoid” about China? Did he inform you?

I stopped the quoting game because then we will have to dedicate a section of our posts to that.

Wonderful.

Padma Sri is given nowadays to anyone who is old and achieved very less. Including actors who hardly deserve it.

How many Padma Shris have you won at school?

And coming to actors, singers and musicians have received the Bharat Ratna, the highest civilian award, your point being?

So, rubbish the award if the award does not suit your claims, typical.

We as in most folks in this world who have experience with old folks.

I see.

I do wonder what the “old folks” have to say about you, in turn given your predisposition to slandering and attacking everyone who does not agree with your worldview.

Another Personal Swipe from some one who clearly do not understand anything about Academic work or research thesis or even how a research fellowship Scheme works. This is off topic but let me explain

I very well understand how the academic world works.

I would suggest that before you brag about your accomplishments (yet to be achieved 2 years thence) in the academic world, you give a modicum of respect to those who have achieved far more than you have, and 4 decades of work backing up their academic credentials.

I would also state that even if you wish to succeed academically, making abusive comments, as you have done so far, is not the way to go ahead.

[I]1. You get three years to submit your paper with one more year extension if needed.

2. 2008 is when I started I only have to submit in 2011. This is the same everywhere in the world number of years range from 2-5.

Very impressive. May I clap about what you have achieved so far? I mean Santhanam should approach you to ask about the relevant details, perhaps?

3. I do not want to go to U.S.A, It is hardly the most conducive place to do what I do. [/I]

Very well. But it still doesnt explain your bizarre propensity to tie in India’s strategic needs and requirements to whatever the U.S. may or may not want. I would suggest that you be more aware of India’s requirements before dismissing them just because they dont match your view which are in alignment with those of the US

Rather than trying to take cheap swipes at me learn about how things work. I acknowledge your knowledge about Indian Aerospace, but you have very little common knowledge.

I am not taking cheap swipes at you, I am merely responding to your ludicrous abuse ridden posts about an accomplished scientist who is not here to defend himself.

As to “common knowledge” – suffice to say that you would not be the benchmark if I were to evaluate the same.

PS: I will not be making further replies to this topic here. If you want to talk PM me. This is because we are not discussing the issues at hand, your are throwing personal jibes at me and I am refuting them.

Not interested in PM’ing you Doby, Ante or whatever name you come up with next.

I couldn’t have said it better myself. Its probably (what I call) a freaky show of nationalist ego displaying itself in an international forum-applicable to any nationality. We-some of us more than others-can be extremely self critical (yet still be proud) when amongst (please allow me to say) our own kind. But when we find ourselved amongst other kinds, it could suddenly come down to ‘mine is bigger than yours’ situation. A small pebble might start an avalanche. Human psyche…I guess:confused:

You mean the freaky show of nationalist ego that has some Pakistanis troll on Indian threads hyperventilating about assembling Sukhois and what not? And then other Pakistanis taking it to some pseudo-gibberish about nationalist ego & forums and what not?

Let us not focus on that. But telling that India is doing more then just assembling MKI and adding a few boxes is pretty funny.

If that is all that is what India is doing, how pathetic is it that Pakistan cannot even do that?

Surely, if all India is doing is “assembling them” and “adding boxes”, then Pakistan can do so too!

Or is Pakistan so behind that it cant even do this?

Your remarks about Pakistan (I mean you are not even able to write more then Pak) show that you cannot even look beyond personal hatred.

Well, let me see, a Pakistani (named Munir as 21Ankush pointed out) comes into the IAF thread, spends all his time saying “India is only assembling MKI and adding boxes” – when all the evidence about Phased production (esp Phase 4) says the opposite ….so who has the hatred Munir?

It is you who has the personal hatred about India and who cannot face the truth, that India IS ahead.

India wants them fast so Irkut makes them…

Absolutely. India wants 90 more Sukhois while HAL is producing 140, by the same timeframe, who else will produce them, Uzbekistan?

That still makes me say that you do not design, manufacture or test them. You are a buyer with few parts added from whatever.

But that is the fun part, you see India IS adding items of its own design to the MKI, it is manufacturing those systems (as I showed to you) & it is test flying them. This revised standard is standardized with documentation shared with Russia, the original OEMs.

My question is – has Pakistan even done that with the JF-17?

It means the same if Pakistan gets J10 and adds Martin Baker and an Pakistani antenna or ACMI instruments to say that J10 is produced in Pakistan…

But the funny part is we are yet to be shown even one single Pakistani part being put on the J-10, and by Pakistani we dont mean Martin Baker (they are not Pakistani, fyi)

Please do not start the usual blaming to others of flaming. Just read the comment if your side in Chinese topic. No one is calling that wrong so be nice and accept healthy and correct questions. Let us return to the topic please.

So first you flame, then when you are put in your place via some pointed questions, you complain “lets return to topic” – but we are on the topic!

Its just that you dont have any answer to ANY of my simple questions.

Namely:
Where are Pakistans “simple” “boxes” of

– Mission Computers
– Flight data computers
– Radar warning systems
– Jammers
– Mission Preparation & Retrieval Units
-Health Monitoring Systems
– Secure radios & datalinks
– MFDs
– Head up Displays

…I mean, these are some of the “simple” “boxes” India is making for its various fighters, trainers etc…surely, advanced Pakistan, must be having them as well?

Where are they?

I try not to laugh when I read your post so be nice.

Ah, such a polite way to say that you are not flaming! So kind of you Munir.

The main problem with RCS of the F-16 is the intake, and is one of those things that make it, in part, an older generation.
This is probably the the biggest cause for USAF to develop the F-35 and not stay with the f-16 platform and develop it even futher a la F-18.

So canopy of not, an f-16 will leave a very big RCS mark for a otherwise formidable small modern fighter.

As much as the airframe are the weapons and fuel tanks. IMHO, even a “treated” Viper will still get to the 3Sq Mtr range thanks to the half dozen missiles & large tanks it carries, plus the reflection from the pylons.

To me it is very clear that this guy has an aim to bring India back from its IAEA breakthrough and newly found recognition. You only have to look around to see which country was against India at the IAEA and who will benefit from a setback in Indo-Western relations and economic sanctions on India. It is China, I am sure that this guy is a closet communist sympathizer who is on Chinese payroll. [/B]

You seriously, seriously, need to go beyond the conspiracy theories & love of the US (have you even been to the US even once, btw?)

The facts are straightforward, in 1998, KS submitted a report to the GOI stating why the TN test failed.

The GOI slept on it, because the NSA Brajesh Mishra screwed up & was not able to convince R Chidambaram to have the issue settled.

The current Govt has been floating balloons via the press of signing the CTBT and what not.

KS has given the rest of the establishment 11 odd years to get its act together and weaponise the TN.

They have not, and with the CTBT coming up, he did what was right & spoke up.

He knows more about Chinese weapons development than ANYONE on this board. He is the one who traced the proliferation of chinese designs to Pak via a complex network. He headed IDSA & traced Chinas RMA. He knows what he is speaking.

His educational qualifications dwarf yours & most of the folks on this board, his work experience spans some 4 decades in military research & development and analysis.

Understand that. When a man like that stands up & asks the establishment to get its act together, its not a time to circle the wagons, its a time to introspect.

Deterrence is not a subject to be discussed by Nuclear Scientists it is to be discussed by Strategic Analysts.

As the Americans – your heros say- when in a hole, stop digging.

Santhanam is THE strategic analyst as far as nukes go. He was handpicked to head the IDSA, the GOI’s premier analyst center to clean it up & fix it.

http://news.indiamart.com/news-analysis/santhanam-new-head-o-5392.html

Check how many times Santhanams name pops up.
http://www.idsa.in/books.htm

This is IDSA, since clearly, this will be the first time you have heard of it.

General Information

The Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA) was established as a registered society in New Delhi on November 11 1965. It is considered to be the premier strategic and security studies Think Tank in India. Over the years the Institute has enlarged its focus of research from Defence Studies to cover issues of National and International Security. The Institute is funded by the Indian Ministry of Defence, but functions autonomously. Apart from research, the Institute also provides training programmes to civilian and military officers of the Government of India. The Indian Parliament’s Standing Committee on Defence frequently utilises the expertise of the Institute.

Governance

IDSA is governed by an Executive Council, whose members are distinguished personalities from various walks of life and which is headed by a President. The Council is supported by Committees covering different aspects of the Institute’s work. Executive Council Committees include: Appointments Committee, Programme Committee, Finance Committee, Membership Committee, and Core Committee for the New Campus. Members of the Council are elected for two-year terms at the Annual General Body meeting.

The current Council is headed by the Hon’ble Minister of Defence Mr. A.K. Antony and has twelve members.

In comparison, your so called analysts are bloody amateurs who are more enamoured of free publicity.

Santhanam is a hard nosed professional, one who has been in the know of Indian weaponization to the n’th degree.

Santhanam reminds me of a Pomeranian barking at everyone who enters your gate. 😉 It will take more than a naughty puppy to make us test or review again.

Guess what you remind this forum of?

With your what…1-2 years of experience in doing …what exactly?

What have you achieved so far in your 24-25 odd years of life to behave like this?

Santhanam has been part of BARC, DRDO, RAW & IDSA. He has excelled throughout his professional career spanning 4 decades.

You have not even begun your career in due earnest, let alone achieved any modicum of any sort of excellence in your field.

Who is the dog here, you or him?

And matt – there is a proverb in Malayalam that says ‘sometimes the naive will do more harm than the evil’. You may wonder how ? Herr Goering explained it during the Nuremberg trials.
http://edkrebs.com/herb/goeringwithout.gif

Theres a better quote to describe the likes of Santhanam – and one day, if you achieve even a tenth of what he has done in his life so far, you should consider yourself lucky.

Again, from the United States – since you have so much faith in them.

Teddy Roosevelt: “It is not the critic who counts: not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself for a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat.”

THAT is Santhanam. The man in the arena, the man in the ring who’s still doing his best, by his country, even at his age, when he could be happily eating off his pension & letting the next generation take the fall, when they discover the TN component of the deterrent are clunkers.

And people like you compare him to a dog, shame on you.

I dont think I even need to say anything more, because everyone here, matt, nirav, lordofjedi, rayrubik have seen your words for what they are…excreta, nothing less nothing more.

If India has only great fighterjets like LCA and the best pilots then why would they invest billions of USD buying foreign trainers, fighterjets and training? They have the golden plane called LCA that can counter anything inside Pakistan. I would expect a downgraded LCA for other developed nations. Surely a bit irony but it shows that we can counter these Ankush statements with a simple smile.

LCA is still a development that needs a lot of time to get anywhere. The naval version is not even going to start cause no one is intrested in helping. India joins PakFa cause it needs a partner that gives 100% input. India want a foreign trainer, transporter, choppers, fighterjets cause it can not develop it without any help. You can make anything out of that but these are the facts. And if some wants to say that MKI is Indian. Latest AFM says is perfectly. There is an article about Irkut prodution of MKI. Everyone is invited to read that. And if some still think that adding a RWR is making a multimillion plane suddenly build somewhere else then so be it.

India invests billions, millions because it can afford to hanker for the entire range of technologies available in the market. Clearly, Pakistan cant, and has to settle for JF-17s to replace earlier aircraft, otherwise given a choice between the likes of the aircraft in the MMRCA contest, the PAF would have been beside itself to get hold of them. In matter of fact, the PAF cannot even afford sufficient numbers of Block 50/52 Vipers per its original needs & that too, the Block 50/52 is behind the Block 60 equivalent F-16 India is evaluating as part of its MMRCA contest.

So your comments are just sour grapes.

That apart, lets have a look at India’s aerospace – the breadth & scope dwarfs Pakistans.

Transports: Do228 license produced, SARAS (own design) + new versions, MTA (JV with Russia)
Pak? None.

Fighters, trainers: LCA, HJT-36 (own designs), Su-30 MKI licensed, MMRCA licensed
Pak: JF-17, K-8 both licensed

Helicopters: ALH, LUH, LCH, Medium Helicopter
Pak: None

…etc etc

I mean you talk as if adding a RWR is simple. Sure – very simple, which is why India is currently in the fifth iteration of its RWR family & the latest version, the R118 is equivalent to tactical ESM systems in terms of sensitivity, can you tell me a single family of RWRs, Pak produces of its own design? And not the license produced Chinese one at the Grifo factory.

Meanwhile in 2007,
http://frontierindia.net/sangraha-for-indian-navy

SANGRAHA Electronic Warfare (EW) system jointly developed by Indian navy and Defence Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) is being implemeted in Indian naval assets.

15 KITE Electronic Support Measures (ESM) system have been inducted in service on Kamov and Chetak Helicopters. Additional 47 KITE systems are in order and in various levels of production and integration. EAGLE ESM systems have been installed on Dornier aircraft and 8 more systems have been ordered. First 5 HOMI systems built by Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL) have been installed on TU-142 aircraft and additional orders are being processed. 2 PORPOISE ESM systems have been installed in EKM Submarines and additional 11 systems have been ordered. ELLORA system built by BEL has been installed on INS Beas. Three more ships of INS Beas class and three ships of P-17 class will be equipped with ELLORA.

And whats more interesting, the latest version of the KITE can track 64 emitters & the next series of systems are in development already. India is on its third iteration in terms of jammers as well…but again, I am sure you consider everything simple ..

And in fighter tactical RHAW suites, India is done with Tranquil (MiG-23BN, 27), Tarang (MK1, MK1B) and is now with R118 MSWS…

And about the MKI & Irkut – yeah, well India wants planes fast, so they are asking Irkut to produce MKIs in parallel and send them to India. But even those planes receive components made by HAL & BEL, shipped to Irkut, & integrated.

Funnily enough, I havent heard even one such event in the case of Pak & the JF-17 or J-10.

I mean, India is upgrading its Jaguars on its own, it did the same for its MiG-27s as well, using a host of local made parts as the heart of the upgrade, its LCA derived computers. Where are Pak’s JF-17 derived systems going into its Mirages or F-7s?

The simple fact is that you & your ilk start flaming, frothing at the mouth, and gibbering angrily when 21Ankush asks a very simple question – what has Pakistan made of its own design in the JF-17, to which so far only Vikas Rehman has given a honest answer – that he doesnt know for sure, but hopes & expects that there is something. Its a fair reply.

My take is that given the amount of publicity Pak gives to any tech contribution from its side across different weapons programs, it would have definitely stepped forward for its share of the JF-17 publicity as well, if there had been significant accomplishments of the s. That it hasnt, speaks volumes, to me at least.

Now you can flame all you want, but its still the fact that Su-30 MKM and MKAs exported to Malaysia & Algeria both rely on Indian radar computers, whereas Algerian MKAs also rely on Indian expertise in display processing. That apart, India’s MKIs run on an Indian avionics heart, namely the Vetrivel mission suite with Indian mission computers. India is integrating new systems on to the MKI using its own avionics rigs as well.

The question is – where are Paks contributions to the JF-17 in a similar light, for you to even put it at the same level as the Indian contribution to the MKI? Let that be the starting point!

Answers, answers..