TeerIndia likely to standardize on Derby ER/Astra and Python-5 for its Su-30s as well as Rafale.
Derby & Python mentioned in this report.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/ariel-view/2015/02/israeli-made-missiles-next-indian-airforce-fighter/
The Indian government has yet to make the final selection between the French Dassault Rafale and the Russian Sukhoi Su-30. But all indications are that there is a consensus among professionals about the air-to-air weapon.
If the SU-30 is eventually selected to be the backbone of the Indian air force, the intention of New Delhi is to equip it with two Israeli-made, combat-proven air-to-air missiles.
Both are manufactured by Rafael: one is the Python 5, a fifth-generation air-to-air missile; and the other is the Derby active radar missile.
Seems like the IAF is not interested in the RVV-SD.
Wonder whether any firm orders were placed for RVV-AEs with the MiG-29 Upgrade.
Andrei Fomin’s excellent Takeoff mag mentions RVV-AE for the MiG-29 Upg but no orders are mentioned.
TeerNo it did not.
According to India’s own testing parameters , the T-90 won head to head.
Err actually if you take the missile firing out, the tanks were comparable. The annexures show the testing criteria for T-90 were relaxed as well.
PS: The Indian Army’s own institute put up results last year which showed the T-90 to be a mess. Several criteria were relaxed. After the forum you cite below publicized the data, the weblink was pulled down. The Indian MOD has a litany of complaints with the T-90.
There is a reason the Arjun is considered the biggest joke of a tank program in decades on any serious armored forum outside of Indian forums like BharatRakshak.
The decades of war those forums have seen are aweinspiring.
In short, everything.
The program.
The design.
The subsystems chosen.
By those standards, the T-90 is a pretty underwhelming design. Its nothing but a warmed over T-72 with severe limitations in its ammunition storage, its ammo length issues, its FCS, and its sights. In Indian Army service, its proven to be decidedly nowhere near where it was meant to be. If the T-90 was anything where the western designs were in terms of crew survivability, capability, there would be no need for an Armata.
FYI, to fix those issues India is replacing all the sights, putting in an AC (the Russian ones flopped), scouting around for western designers to help with the ammo (program delayed since Rheinmetall was blacklisted by the previous MOD).. the aim of the T-90 program was to get a ready “tough” tank, the T-72 was regarded as simple, cheap, and rugged with minimal fuss. The T-90 has proven to be everything but that.
On a plus note, issues are being fixed. But at great expense.
TeerThis is what you see, and want everybody else to think.
Pls give it a rest, it is getting tedious allready.. not to say childish.
Delusional fanaticism, you can see the result. Thinks he is waging virtual “war” even on the internet by engaging in propaganda.
Meanwhile, in the real world, with the new Indian Govt, things are shaping up better for the IAF than they have in years.
IAF is replacing units with far more capable ones.
Su-30 availability is steadily rising since HAL created a spares bank with the Russians & the Sukhoi guys have understood that they are jeopardising future programs if they don’t focus on this non glamorous stuff. Target is 75% by year end, which is as good as can be since aircraft will be rotated between reserves, base maintenance and HAL maintenance (deep maintenance).
Both Mirage 2000 and MiG-29 Upgrade deliveries have begun.
Jaguar DARIN-3 cleared its trials & even as engine negotiations go on, the fleet avionics and weapons upgrade is occurring, this includes an Elta radar & also ASRAAM, NGLGB, SFW integration.
MRSAM contract signed as the LRSAM program with Israel has turned the corner and missiles been fixed.
Meanwhile Akash, Spyder deliveries continue as do deliveries of over 100 Indian, French, Israeli radars to modernize IAFs radar network.
Many other items are now in process of delivery (not order signing).
Present Def Min has a sane head on his shoulders. Getting current items to highest availability & contract deliveries completed are his priorities.
TeerOh yes. There were plenty of *ehem* advisors operating 😉 Problem for the Rajapakse’s post 2009 war was that there was only one country that could econmically save SL. India & Japan provided loans & aid but it wasn’t enough since we are in a monetary cluster-#$#$. US & EU were not at all capable or willing to provide financial support. Only China could save our @$$es. But leaning closer to China led to the Rajapakse’s demise. There is a parliamentary elecection coming up. So until then there will be some breathing space but after that there will be austerity measures. Time to tighten the belts.
Well he played a pretty hard balancing act for sure. BTW, is the SL Army remaining at the huge prewar mobilized level or are there efforts to downscale it now that the threat has passed (supposedly)
TeerIm sure IAF would be dying to get its hand on the jf17. But I don’t agree with your bet that SL would allow India access. Pak SL ties are way too strong esp after the weapons training tactics and military advisors pak had in SL to help win the civil war.
Giving India access to a few airframes etc wont be a big deal. India in the past negotiated access to far more “politically restricted platforms” and has its pilots evaluate them for the IAF’s SOPs.
PS: Pak SL ties are in no way at the same level as Indo-SL ones, just plain and zimble geography. Besides, a certain queen bee who lost somebody to someone had a role to play in moving a ton of Indian advisory assistance to the civil war & while having to work around this issue, intel mandarins ensured this across the board assistance went on quietly (including completely stopping the logistics supply chain that kept the insurgents afloat using the IN) and that more public assistance was offloaded to non traditional suppliers so nobody could point fingers at the Indian state. Such are the games powers play. One day it will come out.
TeerYou are right about that, especially since January 8th. Indian military intelligence will get a nice close look at the JF-17 as well as weapons like SD-10.
Not a bad deal at all. This is the future of the PAF if they commit to it, the IAF will be very interested and I bet Sri Lanka will get a lot in return elsewhere (economically etc).
BTW, heard that even in Rajapakse’s time, certain advisors played a significant role in planning ops against a rather hostile insurgent force. Heard anything of that?
TeerBig news, they just changed their air chief!
there’s been talk of updating their air force with a new light fighter and two of the candidates are Tejas and JF-17.
which would be a better fit for Sri Lanka?While not perfect, it generally has good relations with Pakisand and Indiana
It’d be perfect if the Sri Lankans buy JF-17s. The IAF can get a close look at them, inside out given how closely the Indian military is linked into the SL establishment in recent years.
TeerIraq can’t defeat Saudi Arabia all together, might not bother buying anything! Be happy with your third-tier F-16s that Uncle Sam has dragged his feet on!
That’s a ridiculous line of logic.
A number of S-300VM batteries would make the Saudis think twice about violating Iraqi airspace so blatantly. It would increase the cost and commitment of penetrating into Iraq, and as such would have deterrent value worth the cost of several batteries.
EDIT: Basically what Sheytan said.
Exactly. What part of national sovereignty and local awareness don’t people get. Here we have people who have probably never visited Iraq or stayed there for significant periods of time, talk about Iraqs security issues with a lot of sangfroid (we know best, IRAQ SHOULD DO THIS, THIS IS YOUR PROBLEM), based on news articles and what not.
Seeing the junk 24/7 WW Mass media puts out, I suspect most of whats written about Iraq and Iraqi armed forces is worthless or misleading at best.
TeerNope! I wouldn’t call the AIM-9M and AIM-7M obsolete and frankly they are secondary to dropping bombs on ISIS the far more pressing issue at the moment!
What you decide to call it or not is irrelevant. The rest of the world has moved on, and professional AFs all acknowledge the severe limitations of SARH homers vs ARH homers. And given the culpability of the western world in creating the environment in which ISIS thrives (overthrowing national govts on specious grounds and creating a far more dangerous problem), I’d rather take the Iraqis word on what they need versus more idiotic interventions by the rest of the world including the UK et al.
AIM-9M is still the primary short range air to air missile on the F22 for fecks sake!
Which has more to do about the expense of integrating a modern missile into the F-22s avionics architecture rather than how good the AIM-9M is vis a vis todays IIR equipped missiles.
QRA is about verification not shooting stuff down.
Wonderful. So after verification, what is the pilot supposed to do against a threat? Throw rocks?
TeerThey would still smash you like a bug!
Sure, the excellence of the RSAF is well known. Guys couldn’t even manage the houthis before they went running around the world over/GCC and what not for aid.
Sorry I respect you, but your obsession with going toe to toe air to air with your neighbors is a silly joke when you have the more pressing issue of ISIS!
I’d suspect the Iraqis have more of an idea of what they need than random individuals on the net.
The F-16IQ is more than adequate for your needs it is an absurd joke to call it useless when you need its ground attack capabilities and its QRA abilities are more than enough for the current environment.
See above.
The F-16 has over 74 kills for no loss, many with the early model Sidewinder and Sparrow models you are so hung up over. Get a grip!
Now, you are the one being absurd. Quoting meaningless statistics without context. Next what? Stating the P-51 or P-47 had incredible kill ratios so they’d be better than more modern aircraft tech?
TeerSo what?
There is no way Iraq could stand up to Saudi Arabia or Turkey any time soon so why bother?
Minimum QRA is more than adequate when there are more pressing issues like taking on ISIS!
Minimum deterrence is entirely different from basic QRA with obsolete weapons.
TeerNo sorry sheytanelkebir whilst I think your input is very useful to this forum I can’t let that ride as it frankly is utterly absurd!
The F-16 is not useless in any sense of the word it comes to air defence even with the air to air fit that is being currently provided. I know you have a hang up over the US not providing AMRAAM or AIM9X but it wrong to say the type is useless.
He’s hardly being absurd. With those missiles, SARH homers against Saudi F-15s, or Turk F-16s they are at a complete and total disadvantage.
TeerThat’s not even a point of discussion today. Iraq is looking for more attack helos, UCAVs, T72s, Artillery, sniper rifles, RPGs… but they’re also seriously in a bind with air defence, with the GCC now skirting along Iraq’s airspace and the “yemen situation” deep in mind. I don’t see how they can actually effectively create an effective air deterrent to the GCC in a short period of time… and their aircraft on order don’t really fit the bill for that purpose at all. If Russia would supply and “man” 2-3 S300 units one located in the south and one in the centre of the country it would give Iraq an effective (but limited) deterrent against GCC incursion into our airspace. Whether that will happen or not is difficult to say really…
The US has failed to leash in the GCC, their media arms continue to openly “debate genocide against kuffar” even running “polls” with support for genocide… their “charities” continue to pump billions to terrorists, and now even their conventional forces seem brave enough to fly into Iraqi airspace.
The next major test will be July 2015 I reckon. If the US doesn’t deliver the first 10 F16-IQ, and Saudis continue their incursions… then I guess the Iraqis may go all in with Russia. Or they continue plodding on with no deterrent as the incursions get deeper and deeper… Lets wait and see…
Hi Sheytan, can you tell us a bit more about the internal security situation in Iraq and how things are shaping up economically? Reading the trash NYT, Economist and all the near r@cist trash western press usually churns out, with an emphasis on the primitive tribal Iraqis who can’t do anything right and only mention the mass car bomb attacks, terror strikes, its easy to smugly gloat about how bad Iraq is etc.
It would be interesting (and helpful) for the rest of us to actually figure out whats going on in Iraq right now from an insiders perspective.
TeerDoes the Indian Defense establishment not calculate the expected cost of advanced western fighters before they ventured into the deal? 36 or 50 or even 150 doesn’t change the export cost if you have agreed to drop the tech transfer from the equation. That cost should have been reasonably simple to calculate based on what was offered for the first 18 or so jets in the original deal.
The current Govt has inherited all the mismanagement of the earlier one and is busy fixing things accordingly.
The IAF wants everything & has always chosen the easy import option versus the harder domestic one. The services don’t talk much to each other and pursue their own acquisition programs without bothering about overall fiscal capability. That is the MODs job. The MOD was led by a professional politician who wanted to return to his home state and didn’t care two hoots about the status quo apart from keeping his reputation intact.
So, the current mess.
Current Govts focus is economic growth + military rebalancing. They will get everything in service upto as high a availability as possible before clearing new splurging. More Rafales will come but probably post 2018, by when the first two Rafale squadrons will be in service (or in induction). By then more news will be available about PAKFA progress and how Dassault adheres to the R program as well.
Raising Su-30 serviceability and getting more Tejas in, is the other part of the equation as versus a gold plated fighter force with fewer numbers.
TeerThey should have dropped the 36 Rafale and gone full scale funding for Tejas.
This only 36 Rafale reminds of onlee 40 M2K deal in 80’s where we did not opt for 150 Lic prod that was part of deal and long term its been expensive to maintain and upgrade M2K.
This is a bad decision either they should go for 5-6 Squadron of Rafale and get local lic manuf and MRO facility or just drop the deal and fund more Tejas and MKI.
36 is a case of neither here nor there and Rafale would in the long run turn out to be expensive type to maintain and upgrade over its 30 years life cycle every nut and bolt would have to be imported.
Last time the DM said 36 is initial and more lic prod is under nego and now he says something else , I just hope he is bluffing to get a good deal of lic prod of Rafale in India.
There are wheels within wheels. The combination of pressure from the IAF and the need for the French n-deal with Areva made sure the Rafale deal went through.
There is a chance of it being made in India now. The Govt is going to try for the offset deal to be converted to having its systems locally made, including the high volume spares.
My estimate is another 2 squadrons may be procured in the future.
Meanwhile focus will be on Su-30, Su-30 upgrade and Tejas program. Also force multipliers. The IAF has a shopping list as big as a building apart from the Rafale. The MOD is bent upon getting that fixed up.
The current focus of the GoI is straightforward.
1. Serviceability of inducted equipment as high as possible
2. Clear all pending requirements for spares, munitions to build up War Wastage Reserves
3. War fighting capability has to go up by a huge amount, so if that means G2G deals, telling CAG to back off etc, that is that.
4. Existing programs to be finished, not allowed to trundle along with no coordination eg files being pushed between HAL, IAF etc about who pays for Tejas to be produced at 16/yr etc.
In short, you can see this approach everywhere. No point in buying toys which will rob peter to pay paul.
I am fairly ok with all this, since its focused well on the correct basics. The Armed Forces will be brought to a proper warfighting capability across the board with all of their existing kit in good order and enough force multipliers etc inducted.
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