My friend you should look up the difference between conjecture and credible proof. Everything you have stated above do not equate to an F-16 being shot down.

Or maybe you are right, until they cut open the pilot and discovered a Pakistani flag planted in his abdomen, they had no clue that he was a Pakistani pilot!

What’s even more laughable is that Indian defence minister saying that they know the identity of the PAF pilot who was killed, but choose not to give out his name. Come on! Perhaps they know whatever they reveal will be shot down again, like the claim over the wreckage and the first pilot, who turned out to be someone else and alive.

Desperately clinging on to the initial statement by the military spokesperson, without being able to provide an iota of proof is not the way to prove your point. It has been universally debunked.

This is your country’s record when it comes to acknowledging it’s combatants. So lay off the pious sarcasm.

https://www.telegraphindia.com/india…ops/cid/461514

It took you guys 11 years last time to even admit the loss of your regulars in conflict. Eleven years. Lets see how long it takes this time.

Islamabad/New Delhi, Nov. 18: Eleven years after the Kargil war, Pakistan’s army has officially acknowledged its role by naming 453 soldiers and officers killed in the 1999 conflict.

The soldiers have been named and listed on the army’s official website.

……………………………
During the war, the Indian Army said that militants, Pakistani army “irregulars” and elements of the regular army had occupied strategic heights in the Kargil sector within Indian territory. They were directing Pakistani artillery fire to the arterial National Highway 1A, which connects Leh and Srinagar.

Islamabad was consistent in its denial till Musharraf wrote that five battalions of the Pakistani army — about 5,000 troops — had joined the combat “in support of the freedom-fighter groups”.

………………………………….

The Indian Army had said that the Pakistani troops were from its Northern Light Infantry (NLI), a paramilitary force under its Force Commander Northern Areas (FCNA), which is deployed in PoK.

The NLI was later regularised and absorbed into the Pakistan Army. In the list on its website, many of the “martyrs” are identified as soldiers from formations under the FCNA. Many of the 453 Pakistani soldiers were killed in the Batalik-Kargil sector.

The “Shuhada’s Corner” (martyrs’ corner) of the website lists soldiers killed in Pakistani army operations since 1947-48.

The first page of the long list of martyrs includes the names of Capt Karnal Sher and Havildar Lalak Jan, who were both killed on July 7, 1999, in Kargil and awarded Pakistan’s highest military award, the Nishan-e-Haider.

Several others were posthumously given other gallantry awards like the Tamgha-e-Jurat (medal of courage).

The army also reveals the codename given to the operation to occupy strategic mountains and heights on the Indian side of the Line of Control — “Operation Koh-e-Paima” or Operation Mountain of Resolve. In some cases, the campaign is also referred to as “Operation Kargil”.

Several causes of death are cited for those who died in Kargil — “killed in action”, “enemy action”, “enemy firing”, “enemy artillery shelling” and even “road accident”. The list gives the name, rank, unit, location and nature of death of each casualty.

Even in the middle of the war, the Indian Army had handed over bodies in coffins draped in the Pakistani flag to the Pakistani army at a border crossing near Kargil.

Pakistan had at first refused to accept the bodies but later did. At least seven soldiers were caught and diaries and documents were found on them.

About 550 soldiers and officers of the Indian Army were killed in the war, mostly while trying to reach forbidding heights from where the intruders fired. The Indian Air Force was asked to bombard the intruders’ positions but, like the army, was asked not to cross the Line of Control.

In Pakistan, parties opposed to Musharraf, such as the PML-N, have put the total number of casualties at 3,000 and also alleged that nearly 200 Pakistani casualties were buried in India.

…………………………………

In listing its martyrs in Kargil now, Pakistan’s army has not only acknowledged its direct involvement. It has also given a certain legitimacy to the operation — to occupy heights in Indian territory —even if it was forced to vacate most of them for a combination of reasons, which included India’s resolve to evict the intruders and the then Clinton administration’s pressure on Islamabad.

You want more proof?
Heres the documentary film maker then author who was roped in to repatriate the survivors your military establishment abandoned, just so that it wouldn’t have a PR issue.

We had eight POWs after the Kargil War. Trouble was Musharraf was saying they are not our men. The only way to send them back was to force his hand, so I was asked to film them & release the footage. Luckily immediate about turn.. PAF sent a plane and took these simple men back!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D0yGHx9XgAAYPKp.jpg

https://twitter.com/shivkunalverma/status/1102403528780333058

They were simple souls used as cannon fodder by Musharraf. 7 were from NLI & one was from FrontierForce. No difference between them & our chaps.

This is what happens in a quasi-dictatorship wherein your military calls the shots and ISI is yet to allow site visits to Balakot.

Frankly. He is a clown… (saurabh jaushi).

Agree. Dassault and EADS both got time concessions on the paper bid. Fairly common stuff, he’s made a conspiracy out of it.

That’s not really new information though. It’s common knowledge terrorist organisations operate inside Pakistan with State sponsorship. If Pakistan truly wanted peace, terror training camps would have been the first things they would have dismantled. The people clamouring for de-escalation live in a country not bordered by a military dictatorship supporting jihadis, where they have the luxury of knowing that the bus they are in tomorrow might not get blown up.

The only new thing is India now is willing to retaliate to terror strikes inside its territory with strikes across the border in Pakistan. I hope the people wishing for peace in the region can push the Pakistani military junta into dismantling the camps themselves.

I think it is idiocy (not referring to you) to expect any of these expats living outside to do anything but spout platitudes.

Short term memory loss I presume, having forgotten how Musharraf had to be coerced into taking back 8 survivors from Pakistans failed invasion at the Kargil heights (Pakistan disowned its own soldiers), pretended it had nothing to do with, and then had to be literally forced into taking their soldiers back. Their colleagues bodies were given a burial on the Indian side.

Later Pakistan’s deposed PM admitted in an interview Pakistani Army casualties in that one conflict dwarfed those in several previous ones.

Pakistan is pretty much run by the Army & ISI. Anyone not running the establishment view is given a good-bye. Of the final kind.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleem_Shahzad
https://cpj.org/data/people/saleem-shahzad/

In that milieu, good luck in having any family member of the F-16 pilot stand up and ask for public acknowledgement of their family’s sacrifice.

This is of course not the first side the PAF has hidden what happens to their military assets. A few years back a very successful Taliban strike into a Pakistani base took out some of Pakistan’s pride & joy, their SAAB AEW&CS, and one recoverable airframe severely damaged. There were no reports in the media, outright denials, and finally one Pak minister reluctantly admitted much later, yes there were airframe losses.

In contrast, in India, each & every loss, personnel, equipment wise is logged and reported publicly, propaganda be darned, because the law & system requires it to be so. The reports are then discussed threadbare in Parliament, reported in media, audited (publicly) by the Comptroller & Auditor General & then have to head to the Public Accounts Committee for redress.

Good luck in having that kind of system in PA/ISI run Pakistan.

The Pak expats of course, are suffering from an intense lack of moral fiber & engaging in one-upmanship of the worst kind without understanding that the public mood in India has changed decisively & so has the strategic calculus, which means their support of terror is only going to result in a real vicious conflict, which is around the corner, whether today or tomorrow. The family members whom they have left behind in Pakistan are equally at risk, even while their privileged selves wage virtual war on the internet.

While jumping around yelling “it didn’t happen”, “no F-16 was downed”, “there are no AMRAAMs” “etc etc”, they have forgotten propaganda is not reality.

The IAF, IA & IN are but in the middle stages of a decade long re-armament program & they are poised to pick up far more new capabilities which are to start arriving only this year.

Yet they went for a strike, without any reservations. This was but the 2nd after the Uri one, where IA special forces hit out.

From the IAFs perspective, it went into enemy territory, attacked a base & returned without a single casualty. Next day, to reestablish deterrence and establish its honor among the kind of Pakistani populace we see on this board, the PAF attacked the Indian side with pretty much its entire range of capabilities including its best capabilities, AMRAAMs, PGMs etc. Result, they lose a F-16 to the IAFs soon to be phased out Bisons, and don’t manage to land any telling blow on the Indian Army’s umpteen formations. Furthermore, mass salvos of their silver bullets, the AMRAAMs are defeated by IAF Su-30s – if anything this has worsened the PAFs ability to establish deterrence.

Furthermore, while India went about as if nothing much was happening, the entire Pak airspace was on lockdown. Its foreign reserves are precarious. The true economic costs will only be known in a while, even as the Pak expat crowd boasts of deterrence.

In the coming months, we will see the Indian side only pump in more resources into re-armament, refocusing from the economy focused spend of the past few years. Keep thinking then, in carrying more attacks into India and not expecting disproportionate costs imposed on the Pakistani side. This is the new normal.

This reads more like LM has finalized its plans. Not that GOI has ordered it done..

http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/economy/in-exclusive-deal-india-to-get-most-advanced-f16-fighter-jets-by-201920/article8835851.ece

Lockheed Martin is currently scouting for land to set up its manufacturing unit. According to sources, it is looking to set up the plant in a State that will have a runway near a port.
New Delhi, July 11:

US defence major Lockheed Martin has firmed up its plans to produce the latest version of its iconic F-16 fighter jets only in India under the ‘Make in India’ programme.

The multi-billion dollar deal was “finalised” during the recent visit of Lockheed Martin’s Chairman, President and CEO Marillyn Hewson here last week, a top official, involved in the talks, told BusinessLine.
‘Exclusively’ in India

Under the deal, the company will be manufacturing the latest version of the jets – F-16 Block 70/72 – that will be produced “exclusively” in India.

This will be the “most advanced” version and will not be built anywhere else in the world. Lockheed Martin also plans to export them from the India plant at a later stage, the official said. The F-16 project is a government-to-government deal that will be conducted through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route.

How will the US react to a F-16 user taking on another F-16 user?

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/exclusive-in-kargil-war-india-was-minutes-away-from-bombing-pak-bases-1433345
Exclusive: In Kargil War, India Was Minutes Away From Bombing Pak Bases

What was about to follow is laid out in an official record of the plans of the Air Force, accessed exclusively by NDTV. “On the 12th [of June], Sartaj Aziz went back after a failed visit to India. All pilots were called back at 1600 by Gupta, who had news for us. CATOs [Command Air Tasking Orders] had come for a pre-emptive strike at dawn on 13 Jun,” reads the Squadron Diary of the Air Force’s 17 Squadron, the “Golden Arrows”, a formation that flew MiG 21s from the Srinagar Air Force base.

“We were to do a 4 ac [aircraft] bombing mission in POK [Pakistan Occupied Kashmir] and BDA [Bomb Damage Assessment] of Chaklala [a major Pakistani Air Force Airbase in Rawalpindi.] Tony, Pradeep, Chou & Doc planned for first mission and Dhali, Gupta for the second. Pal was maha miffed at being left out,” the diary elaborates.

Assigned their targets, the pilots then went about the business of preparing for their mission: “We all returned at night after making Wiznavs [software used to calculate routes], golas [loading bullets into personal revolvers], maps and collecting Pak currency.”

2 MiG 21s were assigned as “tied escorts” to four MiG-27s from another unit who were ordered to target the runway at the Chaklala airbase using runway denial bombs (bombs that create large craters in runways, preventing their use). As “tied escorts,” the pair of MiG-21s would provide cover to the MiG-27 ground attack fighters in case they were intercepted by Pakistani fighter jets.

Four other MiG-21s were part of the attack mission, in addition to four MiG-29s air superiority fighters, which would be deployed to sweep the Pakistani skies before the Indian “strike package” approached their targets. Photo reconnaissance of the strike mission to gauge its effectiveness would subsequently be carried out by two other MiG-21s.

TR1,
yeah akash NG with a seeker & QRSAM will likely be more expensive per round than a Tor round & hence the number of rounds/reload for cheap PGMs may need cheaper options.

Regarding range that range quoted some 25km+ is Akash’s effective range i.e. only includes the time the motor is “on”, and gives max Pk against maneuvering targets. The real max range is classified and not publicly stated anyhow & since DRDO only considers the effective range with all the way ramjet propulsion as accurate under actual operational conditions. The Akash NG will take that to 40km (with active seeker), the QRSAM (a mobile SAM based on Astra likely) will be 25km, the MRSAM (Barak-8) is 70 km. MRSAM similarly has a dual pulse rocket motor for “effective” range & its not the max possible range within which kills may be still possible.
Israel notes though that adding a booster to the MRSAM will double its range.

Tor was already tried on a wheeled configuration for India though, so maybe they are more interested in that direction. Can’t really go wrong with either.

The Indian Army was reportedly looking into a Sosna purchase – any news about that?

Latest news suggests the SpyDer is now the frontrunner.

QRSAM radar, Multi-Mission Surveillance from DRDO. Variant will be used for QRSAM with search on move, likely on some armored vehicle.
80km range, 3D, 100 targets TWS.

QRSAM is 25km range, active radar seeker equipped. Likely Astra variant.