TeerIt should be the phase-1 upgraded Bars. Don’t know the dealing status between Niip and India for Bars upgrading on Super-30 and delivered Su-30mki.
Nope, that’s a different beast with more performance.
TeerFinally! A good replacement for the R-77 in IAF and also would obviate the need to buy the Derby.
http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Astra-carriage-trials-with-Su-30-begins/articleshow/26955534.cms
TeerThree months before he hangs up his flying boots, Indian Air Force chief Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne has expressed nervousness and uncertainty for the first time over the country’s largest-ever military contract currently under negotiation: the $20-billion medium multirole combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal for 126 French-built Rafale fighters.
Browne, who has expressed consistent optimism that a deal would be signed by the end of 2013, has struck his first note of anxiousness, no longer willing to put a time-frame to the deal, providing perhaps the clearest indication that it could be delayed.
“We have no back-up plan. If the MMRCA deal isn’t signed, there will be a rapid decline in fighter numbers between 2017 and 22. It is imperative that the deal is signed quickly,” Browne said at his annual press conference on Friday.
Time to make a backup plan, I would say. Better late than never.
More Flankers, what else. Numbers as high as 360 bandied about – thats an additional 90 on top of the current 270 odd.
These will be Super Sukhoi variants and whilst capable, will continue to leave the IAF heavily reliant on one aircraft type and supplier consortium. On the plus side, simplified logistics of a single aircraft type. On the other hand, IAF continues to crib about how much effort they have to put into source spares from the multiple suppliers across Russia and former soviet union as versus having the OEM do the heavy lifting as is promised by the Americans/western suppliers. So no easy answers. Fuel/operational costs of Sukhois are higher presumably than the newer Rafales. LCA orders may also get a fillip given the increasing predominance of heavies.
TeerI am just speculating. The FOPEN version of BFSR was already under development(link), it was small and light enough (< 30Kg) to be converted in an airborne load . It looks way too small to be an Aslesha derivative, besides Bharani is already available as a LLLTR, so the requirement for Aslesha-light is not as urgent.
I am not too sure whether the report is correct – its by Ravi Sharma – he’s hit and miss when it comes to nuance… could be simply they said they are developing a FOPEN radar for battlefield surveillance, and he took it to mean BFSR derivative. The FOPEN radars developed by L&M and SAAB, both have significantly different antenna and radar configurations.
Aslesha is the same size as the radar shown in the pic. Bharani is a gapfiller, but 2D. A 3D radar is always preferable as it allows AD assets to be cued more accurately.
TeerIt’s more capable than the MiG-21 so if the MiG’s could be withdrawn earlier it would increase capability. I guess the Tejas would be cheaper to operate, too. Might save quite a few pilots’ lives as well.
Once the first MK1s get FOC’ed and in squadron service, opinions will change..the test pilots love it, once the squadron operators get their hands on it, they too will start publicizing its capabilities. Right now, its merely the TP, so getting it to the squadrons is of paramount importance.
Its eons head of the MiG-21 not just in technology (better radar and FBW, composites, true glass cockpit) etc, but basically the fuel-payload aspect. With 7 pylons + 1 special one (LDP/EW pod) it offers far more capability than the MiG-21 which is limited to 5 pylons – actually 4+1 considering an EW pod. Basically, the LCA can carry fuel tanks and weaponry (2 BVR, 2CCM) or 2 AAM/2LGB/3 Fuel tanks – these combinations are simply not possible with the MiG-21. Plus despite the upgrade, the Bisons will start nearing the end of their actual structural lives as well.
TeerI get governmental dysfunction. (I am posting from the US at the moment…) …
.. 🙂
but if your force structure calls for XX squadrons sooner or later you need to buy some jets or just admit you will never reach your targeted force structure.
At this point the MMRCA program has been running for how many years? I get the reluctance to throw out the time and money already invested in the program, but the end goal is the purchase of some fighter jets. It is one thing to see a new development program run years late… but how do you justify that type of delay when you are trying to buy aircraft that are already in service?
My personal opinion is that they are trying to do too much with one contract.
When they are satisfied with a simple order for equipment they get the equipment they need in a timely fashion. When they try to negotiate for anything and everything nothing seems to get done.
I don’t disagree with you that they need to get jets. But the problem is that while the IAF has done its job in a thorough fashion, the MOD+GOI are a different kettle of fish.
To explain why the Govt of India is so blase about defence, it would take me a lengthy essay, ranging from topics such as the farcical belief that non violence was wholly responsible for Indian independence + decades of kleptocratic rule by a single dynasty with politicians selected on the basis of loyalty (as versus competence), leaders who constantly seek the easy way out, and finally a bloated bureaucracy which operates on the basis of CYA + do what the political masters say.
Against such entrenched interests, the islands of excellence in the services, the procurement & evaluation side face a brick wall and can only do so much.
The deal and the requirements themselves are still doable (IMHO), its just that the will to get things done quickly is lacking.
The requirements for MMRCA are actually less stringent than those expected of Sukhoi for the Su-30 MKI program in terms of TOT.
Offsets too, were doable, if the Govt had organized its efforts properly.
Negotiations could be done more effectively if both Dassault and EF had been shortlisted.
Point is, right now it appears to be just plain politics stalling the deal.
Given its an election year, the current political establishment gives two hoots about defence as versus 1. winning the election and 2. avoiding any perception of another scam (they have had a dozen already). National security really comes way down the list of priorities.
But then given how badly everything else including the rest of the economy has been mismanaged – it was perhaps a pipe dream to expect defence would escape.
Edit: Mind you, I think Dassault also has its fair share of blame. They were too confident and misjudged what their negotiating position would lead to. If they had quickly settled the TOT issue earlier, there was a good chance this deal would have progressed fast enough, that even the Rs devaluation etc might not have hurt it. But they pushed hard for all sorts of stuff which should not have been brought up at all – given the deal specifics in the MMRCA RFP were apparently explicit, and IMHO – they shot themselves in the foot. Now election season has begun and Dassault wants the deal to go through, but the environment has changed.
TeerWell to get the F-18, they’d have to cancel the MMRCA tender and then float a new tender with the Boeing aircraft as the single vendor. Don’t know on what basis they’d justify that since the defence procurement procedure (as far as i know) was followed for this deal.
The problem with the MMRCA deal is basically this. The IAF did its job as it should have. So its not that the process was too complex and unworkable per se, its that there are additional factors.
The current Govt is arguably amongst the worst in Indian history.
It has mismanaged the economy badly and blown a lot of the available cash on all sorts of sops for “poor folks”, basically intended to win the next election. Bribes basically.
Defence preparedness is an also ran in their list of things to do.
So the IAF work, MOD negotiators etc can do all they are supposed to do. But the Fin Min and others will progress things slowly if the party which runs the current Govt asks them to get some money to throw on more populist schemes.
The mismanagement has also meant that the Rs-$/Euro exchange rates also took a hit, that makes these deals more expensive.
Add a Def Min, who is notorious for sitting on deals as versus acting on them, at the slightest hint of corruption (he wants to maintain a squeaky clean image), and you have the current situation..
Of course Dassault has done its best to secure a better deal for itself, acted tough on TOT – they are a commercial organization, blaming them is pointless. Point is that if the GOI currently was more effective, EF & its L2 status would have been enough to get that sorted out quickly too.
TeerThere’s more to this than meets the eye. Best to wait for things to become clearer by the end of November:
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2013-10-03/news/42664758_1_indian-consortium-minority-stake-indian-oil-corp
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304176904579115052001343632.htmlThe Russians will never invite China to join the PAK-FA programme. Unlike India, who have active territorial disputes with the PRC, Russia fears long-term ‘population overspill’ from China in its far east. Hence will never sell Beijing the rope to hang them with.
Also, the Russians need to be courting India’s next likely PM, Narendra Modi.
Exactly. Both sides have well seasoned negotiators and will be seeking to ensure maximum leverage for their respective industries, and at the end of the day will work out a compromise. Both Russia and India have vertically integrated consortiums and hence workshare agreements are both politically sensitive and directly relate to local employment.
The Indian taxpayer would expect that the GOI strike a reasonable deal out of the program, given how many other industries locally could benefit from an investment of this magnitude.
And if Modi does become PM, expect Russian Indian defence cooperation to continue. Being known as an effective decision maker, he will stress on JV’s as versus pure purchases.
TeerWhat are you so worked up about? Its not like you’re the point man for Russia over the negotiations.
Raging nationalist hard-on outraged at the temerity of the Indians looking out for their own interests.
UAC thankfully, is not made up of such children. NIIP even mentioned in an interview that the Indians are tough but fair customers and bring new perspectives to the table, and the test regimen for the Bars was far heavier than that originally done in Russia, and the product improvements were hence scheduled for the latest Bars. These would then flow to all the newer variants in production.
On the other hand, folks like the above would prefer that India merely rolled over & procured whatever was on offer, irrespective of whether it justified the investment or not.
TeerProblem is both F-18 and F-16 flunked the kinematic performance part of the MMRCA trials. To get around that, the F-18 team offered a new but unproven powered up variant of the Ge414. If this is done, then the time to develop and certify the aircraft needs to be taken into account. That apart, the IAF may need to compromise on TOT as well, which it regards as critical for local, independent sustainment.
TeerSame logic can be used to question most of China’s neighbor nation’s capability, Japan,Korea,Taiwan,India,Vietnam etc.
India has been involved in 3 vicious wars with Pakistan – 1965, 71, 99. In an expeditionary mission in Sri Lanka which saw the equivalent of an entire Strike Corps deployed (As matter of fact, a Strike Corps – 3 Divisions – was formed from the units in that mission), and multiple UN missions where Indian troops saw combat – including missions like this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Khukri
Apart from these, the IA has been in constant combat through the active border between India & Pak, and many units are hence combat hardened.
The IA, IAF and IN also exercise abroad frequently, and hence their skills are known.
I am sure other members here can detail more on Japan and Korea as well.
Teer…that project now indefinitely delayed since 2012.
You are mistaken. ADA (DRDO) has not dropped the AMCA. Tech Development programs for the project are still running and will continue. The formal program will be launched only once the LCA gets FOC and the MK-2 reaches a good level of progress. The simple reason is that the MOD does not want ADA to get distracted from its LCA focus, and hence that program takes first priority. DRDO’s individual labs have their own budgets which get cleared by the overall controller of that technology cluster and hence they do have leeway in developing the core technologies required for the MCA, like materials, avionics etc.
TeerFrom geopolitics magazine, July 2013 issue, page 58-60.
http://www.geopolitics.in/july2013.aspxCRPF is considering purchase of 16 Nishant UAVs.
Rustom-1 goes into production next year (HAL-BEL being the vendors).
Rustom-1 UAV would be equipped with a foliage penetration radar which is entering deployment, which is a derivative of ground based foliage penetration radar (again a derivative of BEL’s battle field surveillance radar).http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/nl/2013/NL_Oct_2013_web.pdf
On last page, a new radar named ‘Atulya’ is being displayed which looks a bit similar to BFSR. It could be either be ground based FOPEN radar or airborne FOPEN radar for Rustom-1.
I doubt that is a FOPEN radar. If it is based off the BFSR-SR, it would be much smaller. The article does not state it is based on the BFSR-SR either? Are you referencing any other source?
Besides this was the head of Army Air Defence – so it would also support that they showed off a surveillance radar, similar to Aslesha.
TeerOr full ToT comes with Rafale deal, as a deal breaker
Doubtful, to say the least.. when Dassault was playing tough on current TOT levels itself.
TeerKaveri Engine Project to Be Revived
BANGALORE — Having woken up to the progress made by countries like China in developing indigenous engines for military aircraft late, the Union government has directed the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to fast-track the ‘Kaveri’ engine project conceived as the power plant for the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA).
DRDO (a) failed to make a useable engine for Tejas without foreign TOT (b) failed to come to terms with SNECMA for TOT. How can DRDO and GTRE now fast track the program?
The Snecma tieup was for a Kaveri MK2 – not the present Kaveri. The MK2 was to use a core from Snecma, with TOT to HAL/GTRE and rest from GTRE. The MK2 was to be used for the AMCA and offer an additional option for the LCA as and when it was ready.
The above report refers to taking the current MK1 and driving that program to closure, even if MK1 does not meet requirements for the LCA/AMCA. It could still be leveraged for UCAV programs and others.
PS: Nitpicking here.. GTRE is a lab in DRDO which is responsible for the Kaveri. So its not GTRE and DRDO per se, but GTRE (DRDO)..production partner is HAL’s Engine Division
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