TeerTeer, again, as said right before your post: Typhoons exports were made under the table, to speak politely. It is a publically available information that there was jail sentences in austria for that and politically stopped inquiry in UK… so, talking about Typhoons exports… how to say… :rolleyes:
I was referring to the fact that some pro-Rafale posters kept alluding to bribes making the difference in the MMRCA contest. I don’t know about your position, but to me, it appeared akin to saying Rafale was the best but EF could win only via bribes. The MMRCA contest has been run fairly AFAIK, and this sort of stuff only appeared to shift the blame to the customer for what could be (we don’t know yet) decisions on Dassault’s part.
TeerI am more worried about the Typhoons ‘precision laser cut’ technology some one stated as its advantage here. Looks a bigger learning curve in the offing for HAL in that rather than the normal Rafale built.
Not really, each will have unique processes, each of will be a blip compared to the amount of processes that will be transferred in total. The biggest challenge will be program management and outsourcing to vendors who will have to be trained in aerospace level work. Its going to be a windfall for Indian industry. And this, apart from the 50% offset.
The number of suppliers that will have to be tapped to build stuff. Even a 60% by cost, TOT as some statements noted, is a huge challenge. A radar or avionics item for eg will have stuff like power supplies, there will be small components, fasteners, piping, so many items and systems let alone complete units.
Its going to be a huge learning experience and great opportunity for HAL’s supplier base as well. For instance check out companies like:
http://www.smcel.com/products/electronics
http://www.vemtechnologies.com/
Plus there is the advantage HAL will get which it will surely leverage.
In the past, HAL used techniques and tooling between both the DO228 and Jaguar programs.
A lot of this will spin off to FGFA as well. That program will definitely benefit from the high tolerances and manufacturing capability both at HAL and private vendors established via the MMRCA.
TeerYou’re dreaming ; HAL admits it will take time before India will be able to manufacture a Rafale or a Typhoon… And i find them extremely optimistic, a touch of magic wand ? no , being able to manufacture entirely a modern combat aircraft (we’re not talking of Mig 21 …) requires huge investments in industry and technology. It took decades to France to achieve such a result.
Whats the big deal? HAL can already make the Su-30 MKI. And that aircraft is fairly sophisticated in terms of materials & processes.
Yes, it will be a challenge, but not impossible by any means.
A quick question, will Dassault have all the process documentation and engineering in French – as was often the case earlier, or is English commonly used? This often a bit overlooked in these sorts of discussions, but its a big challenge in putting the logistics in place, training engineers etc in the host nations language etc which adds time and complexity.
TeerSo now we can see clearer why the unit price was so close to the rafale in the indian bid ! It seems that Dassault is playing it smart and doesn’t feel the need to diminish its margins to win the deal !:)
Or it tells us that EF is playing that much harder to win.
As things stand, Dassault does not have a single export customer yet for the Rafale. The EF already has two, Austria & KSA.
Plus, there is the long term issue to consider. As I recall, the ratio of upfront costs (airframe) and sustainment (lifecycle) is usually around 40:60. Even if India chooses to make aircraft inhouse, the transition from SKD, CKD to raw materials will take between 50-100 planes worth out of a production run of 189. Plus the spares for these aircraft as the IAF will fly very intensively in the beginning (~300 hrs/year if we go by the Su-30 example) to settle at the 180-240 hrs/year benchmark later (averaging out to 150 odd hours per airframes, as rotated).
Then there are upgrades and additions.
Point is money can be made apart from the initial purchase itself and if one goes by what you are saying, Dassault is ok with a loss to maintain margins.
Over the past few weeks, I have seen several Rafale supporters on this forum already bring up claims of bribes and this and that – none of the EF guys have.
It seems you are already preparing for a possible loss? Tell me something, are you lot (Rafale supporters) happy if Dassault loses the deal in order to maintain its margins. Or do you anticipate Dassault would do this?
Honest queries. Because, that article appears to dismiss a valid competitive strategy using some vague reasons.
TeerJust going back to your old post Teer. Air Force LCA Mk2 wont be having LEVCONS.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/AeroIndia2011/kakarat/brochures/LCA+Tejas/tejasmk2/scan0001.jpg.html
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/AeroIndia2011/kakarat/brochures/LCA+Tejas/tejasmk2/scan0002.jpg.htmlThe N-LCA Mk2 with LEVCONS looks pretty nice.
Hi Killerbean, those are the prelim CAD images.
But the definitive MK2 may still have changes. Basically, ADA is doing a detailed study to identify whether using LEVCONS may improve turn rates, give advantages at lower speeds etc as that is what they were incorporated for in the NLCA.
Based on that, we may yet see LEVCONS on even the AF LCA MK2. But its not a given, that is true.
TeerThe Su-30MKI will be around for the next 30 years at least, given that many are not even completed. So, yeah, it seems like a good multirole compliment to the FGFA.
About the only thing that I wonder about the FGFA/PAK-FA is the 4 BVR armament thing. Seriously, that’s a bit on the low side?
TeerBut purely a2a, high/fast, the MKI is a little compromised thanks to the twin seat, and lower engine power. A Tiffy with a massive AESA + meteor in conformal carriage, might just be what the Doc ordered.
USS.
Whats the point? With Bars & RVV-AE (especially the former), the MKI continues to perform well in BVR. The “weak” point if any, is the RVV-AE which is similar to the AMRAAM & the PRC has imported it as well.
A Super-30 as planned, with an improved radar & improved weaponry would continue to be superior to whatever the neighbours can field. Put a 1 mtr dia or thereabouts AESA or take a look at the Irbis itself, and the implications versus even low RCS platforms are clear. The Captor E guys claim that they can detect even an advanced JSF level platform at around 50 km. Thats with a dia around 30% less than that available on a Flanker.
Take a look at the DARE model shown at Aero India, and it clearly shows high power wingtip mounted jammers as well.
Point is the upgrade basically takes the aircraft to the next level.
What I am saying is whether Rafale or EF, the overall combo of these with MKIs, MMRCAs, LCA MK2s plus the upgrades is sufficient to deal with any & every threat in the neighborhood.
I’d take the combination of factors such as integrated avionics with sensor fusion, overall refinement – in both weapon systems & overall platform – of either type in the MMRCA over both the high end threats (e.g. the J-20 in development or even the earlier J-11, Su-27SK)* or the next level eg the F-16 Block 52, J-10B, or the tier 3, the J-10A, JF-17 etc.
* I rate the Flanker variants at the first level, because of the combo of decent sensors, good payload and range w/o compromising too much wrt performance .
TeerIt’s the new ZSh-10 – as I photographed at MAKS…..
http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/moscow_2011_files/day4_002.JPG
The dummy was sat in the new Zvezda K-36D-5 ejection seat… presumably in his new flight suit ?
http://www.flankers-site.co.uk/moscow_2011_files/day4_001.JPGKen
That attachment is similar to the SURA-K attachment for a HMCS. Implying that the PAKFA may not have a full blown HMDS but continues with a HMCS?
One thing about HMDS’s is that they come with a significant weight penalty and pilots keep complaining about a sore neck, which can lead to a severe issue over a longer period of time.
Is that the reason Russia continues to persist with HMCS? Technology is probably not the answer because they could source systems and components or even complete systems from the French.
Teerhow do you know? just how the **** do you know for sure?
Read what I said again, if you didn’t comprehend it.
Not to mention the J-15 will probably not be as refined as the original Su-33 in some areas being a first attempt and that too RE’ed.
Fairly obvious.
No need to throw another tantrum when its clear that the Russians have far more experience in this sort of thing. Heck, if PRC was all that good as Russia or better, they wouldn’t need to copy the Su-33.
And:
Put an AESA & new AAMs on the MiG-29 series (the RVV-BD comes to mind) and the bird can do fairly well even against larger types.
Again, fairly obvious.
If you cant understand the above..
TeerThere are four things left now. The operational costs (sustainment in terms of spares included), the weapons package costs, offsets and then, the political factor.
I kind of think though, the way this competition has been run so far – to avoid any claims of favoritism – the political factor or strategy factor (as commonly known) may be ignored and only the detailed cost breakdowns + offsets used to make the decision.
TeerNot to mention the J-15 will probably not be as refined as the original Su-33 in some areas being a first attempt and that too RE’ed. Put an AESA & new AAMs on the MiG-29 series (the RVV-BD comes to mind) and the bird can do fairly well even against larger types.
TeerKen – topic may be a bit morbid, but thanks for all your info packed posts.
Teerhttp://www.indianexpress.com/news/bids-open-for-fighter-aircraft-likely-t…/871143/
While the French Rafale came out to be slightly cheaper than the European Consortium’s Eurofighter in terms of ‘fly away cost’ per unit, as expected, the difference was less than 5 per cent. This throws the competition open.
TeerLike AVIC chairman’s remarks? official media reports? that Mr. Pinko showed you? oh those are in chinese so they must not be true.
Oh those are suspect because he said work is “on going”.
(hell, work is still on going on F110 program so what does that mean? )And yes, you did not mis-read, I said porn, airplane porn to be exact. the steady diet of glossy detailed airplane photo galore, machine of beauty and death in their most intimate moments, that clueless amatures like you have been devoured.
Porn porn porn porn porn.
some one said it right,
the signal to noise ratio on your posts are very very low.rest of your posts do not deserve my time, my denigration and insults serves a purpose, to shock and awe people out of their self-inflicted tunnel-vision.
but those are reserved for the hopefuls, which does not include you.(oh, p.s. try to imagine an stiff englishman making those above remarks, it might go down a bit better).
This, plus the entire series of increasingly rambling posts you have cluttered this thread with, are comedy gold.
Yeah, so after all that rubbish you wrote, all you have to go on is the fact that another dude who does nothing but flame, tried to be more abusive than you usually are and you cite that as support.
The rest of your stuff, trying to excuse some blatant IP ripoffs is too funny to even bother countering.
That stuff about porn is so revealing. Clearly all that’s on your mind, and which should explain your anger issues, your tendency to abuse away!
Then there is this comedy goldmine that you fill your posts away!
Asking Jo to “thrust you” and then “ook I usually warn people before they pull a fast one infront of my eyes” and go imagine “stiff englishmen” ….brilliant!
You couldn’t be more silly if you actually tried & Fawlty Towers, or BlackAdder should have hired you for the kind of butchering that you do to the language…which you try to abuse others in.
You think you are putting others down & coming across as authoritative. In reality though, what you are doing is a class A stand up. The funniest kind, the un-intentionally funny one!
What the heck is this? “machine of beauty and death in their most intimate moments, that clueless amatures like you have been devoured. “….Ha Ha??!?!
Machine of beauty and death in its most intimate moments? LOL? Wacko, to the n’th plus degree!!
The only purpose of all your insults and self claims to glory is apparently to compensate for the fact that your posts come across as those of a wannabe and can’t convince anyone of anything.
Clearly, you have way too much time on your hands & are not averse to wasting it either. Yours & everyone else’s.
Your own bizarre posts full of “denigration and insults” which you are amazingly proud of as they “serve a purpose”, are quite clearly apparently doing a “thrust you” to you, yourself!!
In the adult world, those throwing temper tantrums are clearly those who failed to convince others of the veracity of their claims.
Abuses, tough talk, wannabe self love and made up claims impress none. Go figure.
TeerWell, look no further, your media has reported recently quoting the words of AVIC boss”
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2011-09-22/news/30189625_1_engine-maker-jf-17-turbofan
It says work is progressing well. Could mean work is still going on and not finished.
If you are really interested in China aviation engine development now and thus like a quick dose of inform on the issue,
Analysts from US already done a lot of work on this research, in below report, it says:
http://www.chinasignpost.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Engine-development-timeline1.jpg
I read that link when I came out – all I can say is the analysis was not as rigorous as I had expected, I had thought two domain experts actually sifted through the news to see which made sense, and which didn’t. But this is more of a general look going by a lot of the same reports which are hard to verify.
Appreciate your efforts, and if any PRC details come out about the engine in an authoritative fashion, let us know.
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