Oh, a whole flock of birds in front of you on a glossy airplane porna and you can’t even count. How many airplanes with WS-10 needs to be in one picture before you declare them to be finally in operation?

Thats the point. Somebody serious would need more than just pictures to jump to conclusions or better still make reliable estimates. And I presume it was apron, not “porna”. Big difference between the two & I got thrown for a second.

also,
pretty funny I got my english corrected by an Indian ( I presume).

The word you are searching for is “ouch” – that could have replaced the entire statement above.

When you attempt to patronize, and insult other people on the board by calling them idiots and “ignorant” for not knowing other languages, its kind of funny that you do so when you are not skilled in the language you use as a tool to abuse them with.

Being called out on it by another who is not a native born english speaker just goes to prove the point that a little humility on your end would have gone a long way.

you may speak 2 languages pretty well, and love to use alot of words.
but apparently value of those words summed up to pretty much very little.
learn the value of Essence and Form. you just may may learn something.

I actually speak 3 languages, understand a fourth – and don’t speak it because there is no reason for me to use it actively. Which is sort of the point – you know nothing about the people on this board but posture & condescend a lot. There are probably folks here who speak at least half a dozen odd languages for all we know. Do tone it down.

As regards, essence and form (note the non capitalization) I’d merely suggest that your posts don’t show the slightest hint of either. Again, lessons from you would be rather unwarranted, I’m afraid.

also kiddos learn to count first. that;s some basic stuff.

By which irrelevant aside apparently, you meant to say you learnt to count first. Congrats.

and why am I getting accused of being jingoistic? I patiently present facts and those facts are contrary to some of you guys entrenched beliefs. and what happened? snarky comments gets thrown around.

Is this the best you guys can do?

Calling people idiots and ignorant for not trawling the Chinese net to pick up dubious pieces of information, qualifies as jingoistic.

The increasingly acrimonious exchanges between you & the other discussants in this thread, ditto. What was the big deal is saying the J-15 is a ripoff, beats me. You have a J-20 thats clearly not a ripoff. If the J-15 is “borrowed”, whatever, let it be so.

Your implying that my statement that the J-15 may not yet be superior to the Su-33, while insisting it was far superior & implying that by not accepting your claims, it was an insult to the PLAN….jingoism.

Clearly, you are a young guy, a lot of passion, lot of enthusiasm, burning with patriotism for his nation and angered when you see its not getting the respect you feel it deserves. That’s all fine.

But do realize that ultimately everyone will convince themselves by the information that comes to them, and not by your increasingly strident attacks.

Which is why your anger re: entire J-15 and WS-10 thing is so bizarre. If China has indeed started mass manufacturing WS-10’s then it has. No debate here will change that, and we’ll get the evidence in a couple of years. If the J-15 is indeed ready and meets PLAN requirements, thats ok – as versus it having to be superior to a more mature Su-33. Both meet the PRCs needs and are good for your nation.

Thats all there is to it. It does not have to draw in references to “one-fifth of humanities” or calling people stupid or ignorant because their views are different from yours, or even as or more accurate than yours.

Good day.

A better question would be how good his chinese is, maybe he could direct you to some BBS sources. But then a lot of “facts” we hear about chinese military developments are word of mouth and in rare occasions do we get an interview with a PLAAF general or booth official or even CCTV program.

The larger point is not just how good his Chinese is, but his jingoistic attitude, wherein he goes around posturing and dropping comments about stupidity and ignorance, and lecturing others about language usage….this when he can’t post even a single post without a bunch of typos, grammatical errors, malapropisms or the misuse of otherwise common english idioms. Its laughable.

Second, the so called facts you mention are exactly the problem because they are anything but. A few years back, based on the same “facts” from the same “sources”, we had confident assertions that the WS-10 worked, no more Russian engines would ever be ordered etc. Anyone who questioned this party line was accused of all sorts of things. And now its the same thing all over again and the same reasons are being trotted out.

Sun Tzu has also been brought into play this time around. Pardon me but I’ll remain skeptical until a couple more years have passed and the situation clears up.

The rah-rah PRC brigade may consider that heresy. I consider it rational. All said and done, if the PRC has licked the engine issue, then the evidence will be fairly obvious by then, and more or less incontrovertible. And we won’t have to go by a few pics or forum posts or net claims.

But there are a couple (at least two?) regiments of new build J-11B/BS that are equipped with WS-10, and even old J-11As are being refitted with WS-10 (one off, or fleet upgrade?)

Exactly the issue. You don’t know how many regiments have been fitted out with the WS-10. Whats its exact details are either. I don’t hold you culpable or anything of the sort, I am just saying look at the larger issue, that information coming out of the PRC is strictly rationed or many a times confusing.

There might’ve been a photo or two of that posted in the PLAAF thread a week or so ago, but there are more over at CDF if you want to make an account. http://www.china-defense.com/smf/index.php?topic=5630.msg174667#new

Not sure if that constitutes proof for whatever you were arguing about, but it should constitute proof the PLAAF was finally satisfied with WS-10 on a twin engined fighter after all these years around 2009-2010. #massproduction
The fact preproduction/prototype J-15s are equipped with WS-10 should count for something too.

It does not constitute proof I am afraid. All it tells me is that some engines have been made. As to why, there could be multiple reasons including fixing production runs. I have spoken to several engine makers, and to a man they all like significant production to fix out issues and trace root causes. But funding invariably gets in the way. Is the situation same in the PRC or are its programs more liberally funded? Who knows…it could be either way, and thats the point.

You’re kidding right. Are you actually defending the credibility of that article, and of the washington post on the chinese military? You know there’s a certain hierachy to this right? Wrt the PLA, washington post is down there with your other garden variety news outlets and slightly above strategy page.

What exactly makes you feel that the article was wrong? Many points it made were fairly reasonable and well in line with what industry specialists have said on several occasions and I know this from first hand experience.
Perhaps the tone of the article rubs many Chinese off the wrong way. Ditch that & look at the specifics.

And no, I don’t know there is a certain “hierarchy” to this. Nor do I believe in conjecture of this sort. I don’t go by what Chinese forums decide about credibility, I go by the arguments made.

Details? Stick around on SDF or CDF for a few years and get a sense of a fraction of the details coming through… As I said, word of mouth. Understand who’s credible. That is both the fun and the bane of following PLA and in particular PLAAF developments.

I am aware of SDF and CDF and followed them for ages, and am also well aware of the phenomenal amount of group think that goes on in these places, plus the amount of unverified details oft taken as gospel. They are good forums and still interesting to check out from time to time, but hardly as accurate as you imply them to be.

wut. one of the things WS-10 is known for is supposedly having a higher MTBO than the Al-31 it’s replacing. The idea of any mass production fighter equipped with 15 hour MTBO engines… did this come from taht random article from washington post or something?

EDIT: nvm just saw the whole lavi reference, forget it.

Why is that article from Washington Post “random”, just because it points out that Chinese engines had a low MTBO? And where is it known that WS-10 has a higher MTBO? Details please.

This is the difference between the Chinese and the Indians. After all is said and done there are dozens of fighters in the PLAAF equipped with WS-10 engines, including the J-15.

The same cannot be said for the 5.5:1 thrust ratio Kaveri which will according to the various phases of the moon be the equal of the F-404, M-88, F414.

The WS-10 has delivered, the Kaveri miraculously becomes better and better the clearer the fact becomes that India has failed.

ROTFL, so when you are asked for actual evidence, all you can do is post yet another worthless rant about China versus India. Indeed, China is indeed better than everyone, the Indians, the Russians, the Americans, the Martians. Woe upon us, for having the temerity to ask the likes of you to actually post something sensible for a change.

Seriously, the more people like you posture and prance about, the more bizarre you appear.

Why is it a waste of money?

Any decision made by India in it’s own interests hurts the gent something fierce. Take a look at his previous posts & you’ll see the pattern. 😉

Corrosion,

Why bother? If the LCA was not ordered in number, these guys would run around congratulating themselves over their hated enemy taking a downer. In the case that it is being ordered in number, its a waste of money, LOL. Heads you lose, tails they win.

Expect some dissembling about how its not good enough for the IAF or some strategic mumbo jumbo next.

Talk about missing the point. The “quality” problem with the WS-10 engine from two years ago were production process issues. It doesn’t need to be said that a modern turbofan is an extremely complex machine that contains many thousands of parts that all need to be tested. All industrial production has a certain reject rate for parts that fail to pass muster and for more critical parts such as the turbine blades with stricter requirements, tolerances, and production difficulty, the rejection rate rate will be higher. Keep in mind that these parts are not cheap and the more that are rejected, the greater the final product cost that could potentially make it uncompetitive despite lower per unit production costs.. The quality issues of the WS-10 in 2009 when it first began entering service with production J-11B’s were because of a high reject rate (not unexpected in scaling up mass production as opposed to one off lab pieces) of components causing a major bottleneck in engine production. This resulted in dozens of airframes backlogged at Shenyang waiting for engine production to match airframe production. That the single J-11B regiment in 2009 was joined by 4 more by today is indicative that this issue has been solved.

Loads of statements there but no proof whatsoever. The rest about production processes is just a rehash of what I pointed out & what everyone knows already.

Bottomline – it’ll be a few years before the status of the WS-10 is known with any degree of certainty. Same as all these years we were told, the issues had been solved and everything was perfect, or almost so.

No big deal given the topic in question, except the fact that some folks make it out to be one.

Isn’t the WS-10 based on the CFM56 turbofan, a very tried and tested powerplant?
It would be interesting to compare the WS-10 performance such as Time-Between-Overhaul and operating lifespan, compared to the latest versions of the AL-31?

All I have seen so far on this business is internet stuff from enthusiasts who quote other internet sources. Very little exists so far to even answer those questions which you have raised.

Basically, we have been hearing the WS-10 is ready for many years now, but given how hard these things are to develop, let alone productionize, who knows. As of April’09, they still had significant production quality issues, per another net claim.

http://www.china-defense-mashup.com/chinese-avic-top-head-admits-the-poor-quality-of-jet-engine.html

These things take time to fix.

Elsewhere, you’ll find references to the engine running for only 30 odd hours worth as versus many times that on the AL-31 FP. That again indicates component level reliability will have to be worked out, fixed.

They’ll probably get there, eventually, but the AL-31 series is fairly proven and as the FM variants show, technology insertions can be done to improve it further ahead.

My point is the J-15 is probably a learning attempt rather than the definitive variant. Its probably not going to be equal to the Su-33 but the PLAN – being more rational than some of the over the top ‘net enthusiasts who are not even based out of China – probably doesnt expect it to be either.

They’ll take time and work out the issues. But Russia given its understanding of the entire certification & design experience – plus a substantial supply chain will continue to have the edge IMO. The MiG-29 K conversion basically showed they have managed to retain the skills, plus now its all UAC.

In engines, Russia is ahead & will remain so. Its such a combination of factors that its really hard to match them especially when thanks to exports and even domestic programs, military engine programs continue to be funded. The PRC even bought the same Il-76 based flight test bed from Russia. Point is there is understanding (theory), design capability (design engineering) and execution (which requires subsystem and materials suppliers) – Russia remains quite strong in all three.

http://business-standard.com/india/news/qa-ashok-nayak-cmd-hindustan-aeronautics-ltd/454054/

Excerpt – HAL Chief says 200 LCAs planned. Adds to all the statements by the IAF/IN etc.

….. On order with HAL today are 57 Hawk trainers, 73 Sitara Intermediate Jet Trainers, a second batch of 20 more Tejas Light Combat Aircraft and 12 Dorniers for the Coast Guard. An additional order for 42 additional Sukhoi-30MKIs is at an advanced stage (of processing).

……………

The global trend in defence corporations is towards consolidation, rather than breaking into smaller companies. Look at how many big companies have merged to form Boeing, Lockheed Martin and BAE Systems.

Besides, HAL is a highly interwoven and interrelated company. To build a Dornier in Kanpur, the landing gear and the engine have to go from Bangalore. Many other components are being built in Lucknow. A centralised HAL brings all this together. Otherwise, with two or more different managing directors involved… remember, we are dealing with equals. If we break down into ‘nimble’ companies, we might find this synergy gone.

…………
HAL always complains about orders being placed piecemeal.

Our disadvantage is small numbers, because we cannot buy parts in bulk or set up large facilities in anticipation. For example, we have just received an IAF order for 20 Tejas fighters. I know that we will finally build some 200 Tejas, but can I set up, at this stage, a factory that can build 20-30 LCAs per year? I can’t, and so my unit price will be higher than it could be if a bulk order was placed. These are the systemic challenges.

…………

During my 38 years in HAL, we have grown into a far more professional aerospace organisation. Earlier, the thrust was on areas like maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO). Now, it is on high-tech areas like composites and engine technologies. The Su-30 MKI’s engine, the AL-31FP that we build at Koraput, is in a class of its own in complexity. Finally, we have grown the Indian aerospace sector by developing a network of suppliers.