TeerSo finally the LRAAM for the Su-35 (as well) reveals itself?
I’d expect it to have an ARH. Agat makes a range of modular seekers.
TeerYour government right now is no better than Pakistan ~ It refuses to sell F-16C/Ds to Taiwan for the reason that Viper’s secrets may be leaked to China, but on the other hand, it has sold the latest editions of F-16C/D, AIM-120C7, HARM, JHMCS, and Sniper pod to Pakistan……
If Pakistan can let Mainland China to see and analyze the secrets of USA’s stealth Helo wreckage right now, why can’t it let Mainland China to see and analyze the secrets of F-16C/D Block 52+, APG-68V9, AIM-120C7, HARM, JHMCS, and Sniper pod one day ??
Your government offers generosity to the most loyal partner of Mainland China, and treats the one of most loyal friend to USA in the Asia like a dump of shxt. Time will tell USA if it is wise enough.
Toan, how goes ROC’s domestic weapons program including Golden Eagle enhancements, A2A missiles, SAMs and PGMs? Are there domestic radar programs also?
Cant they compensate..
TeerBut I cautiously answer this; apart from being used in territorial disputes it can certainly be used for long patrols in the indian ocean protecting chinese shipping once they’re familiar with the carriers enough, like PLAN destroyers and frigates have been doing for the last two years. Other scenarios include disaster relief, projecting power, or situations in african countries if chinese economic interests and citizens are threatened.
I don’t think it’s fair to say the varyag and future chinese carriers are aimed at a future in the SCS. It’s going to be quite a bit beyond there.
Blitzo, you don’t need carriers to protect chinese shipping in long patrols. Nor do you need them for disaster relied. LPDs are much more useful than carriers full of munitions and purpose kit.
Projecting power is the right answer & that is entirely what the debate was about, instead of all this irrelevant sidetrack about a mythical Japanese threat. Carriers are powerful statements of intent. Thats about it. Could have just agreed on that in the beginning & everyone could have walked on.
TeerBut when its NATO + Japan + others ? Couple with that recent Chinese history of last 100 years, I can see where they are coming from. I don’t think anybody is going to invade China but people can cut off their supply lines, which is nothing less, in a modern world. Just have to think from their perspective. Sad but this is how world works. People who have let their guard down have paid very dear price. History is the proof and I bet future wont be any different by the looks of it. Securing your supplies is going to be the name of the game in future at least between “powerful” nuclear weapon states and aircraft carrier are “very useful”.
See the context. That was in reference to the lurid claims of air strikes on china killing millions of Chinese.
PS: NATO+Japan+others ain’t gonna do diddly squat to China.
China is a huge market. Nobodies kills the goose that lays golden eggs especially at current economy conditions.
PPS: Nothing wrong with securing SLOC etc – but the Chinese Navy can handle that well enough as it is.
TeerTeer,
grow up.
stop trying so hard.
winning an argument on the internet is like a winning in special Olympics.
Heh. You are full of #win “I.E.” and clearly all “grown up and mature” ™, which is why you keep coming back for more.
P.S. It might help you to be a little less racist and paranoid. A bit of consideration for the physically disadvantaged might also help. That has far more importance to your future mental well being than impressing the rest of the 50 centers with googled up quotes about “winning in the special olympics” – those guys btw have more grace in them than you ever will.
KYL,
AFAIK, nobody stopped you from posting on the topic or continuing with it as you see fit. What I do see is a failed attempt to rein in i.e. in. As long as i.e. continues posting risible rubbish, its well within my rights (and those of anyone else on this board) to respond with the facts at hand.
TeerJapan has the most potent navy of any asian country, perhaps even the second or third best in the world, their air force and army are powerful and they have the technological and industrial might to back it up.
If they weren’t allied with America against China then this might be less of an issue but as it stands Japan’s military is still a potent threat.
You just repeated exactly the same points which you noted the first time around. Which brings me in turn to the same points I noted earlier. That their military posture is predominantly defensive. Having a potent navy is nothing wrong. Look at their GDP, look at them -they are an island nation! That does not mean the Japanese are a threat. Again, their AF & Army are in no position to influence events in PRC or conduct some huge strike.
Fair enough but assuming the carrier will be used only, or even mostly for contesting disputed waters is flawed imo.
What else can it do? Against the smaller nations, it at least has a chance.
At any rate, this is a matter of conjecture at present, so you might as well be right.
Teer@Teer/
I will not oblige your requests to “quote” properly because I do not think your rather intellectually hollow answers deserves my time.
sorry bud, right now you are just widening the debate out of the scope of what we initially started off on,… a behavior which I have seen you repeat multiple times in this forum and frankly is rather disruptive, we will do much better by just ignoring behavior as such. a mature person knows how to keep a discussion with in its original bounds.
If you have something better to say, go ahead. If not, you will be ignored. thank you.
and here I must quote golden dragon’s line, ill-properly :
“Shut up about politics and just concentrate on news and picture of the hardware and we’ll be fine.”
I.E. , you don’t have to “oblige my requests” to quote properly as you now admit that you have no intention to follow the basic courtesies of netiquette.
But kindly don’t attempt to to justify your boorish behaviour.
Your so called statements about “intellectually hollow statements” and “widening the scope of debate” and your personal fibs about me are hilarious – basically anyone who calls out your bizarre claims widens the scope of debate, or is “intellectually hollow”.
It could be worse. They could be Japanese. Or Americans. Or Indians. Your fixation with race and your race baiting speaks for itself.
So far, you have not been able to prove even one of your bizarre claims. The point was & is that India’s spending in its NE regions flowed from China’s increasingly assertive military posture & modernization. Which you attempted to pin on the US. Bizarre.
Next, your statements about the Koreans behaving the same as the Chinese did not bear themselves out either.
After that, your over the top claims re: Japan won’t convince anyone who sees the topic logically either. Statements that the Japanese are somehow some threat to the PRC are not backed out by logic, given the PRCs far greater military might.
In return, all you have offered so far, are more and more bizarre statements about race using terms like “chinks”, “sneaky yellow *****s” to play the victim card. And then “I will continue throwing jeers at you”.
So thank goodness for “not obliging” me anymore with your tedious, blue font replies. There is only so much over the top propaganda one can take.
Teerall of your blahs aside…
All your poo flinging aside….
US has moved F22s and B2s in Asia, for the expressed purpose of hedging, that’s a fact.
US has had a containment policy vs china which has its cornerstone on its security arrangements in Asia,
that is also a fact.
US militarily intervened on behave of the losing side in the chinese civil war. and still continues to do so resulting the tragic split of its people,
that is also a fact.
LOL, at your over the top political statements “US militarily intervened on behave of the losing side in the chinese civil war. and still continues to do so resulting the tragic split of its people, – don’t quite think the ROC guys actually buy into your dubious logic there!
So if the US positions assets to defend its allies – and that too in a limited fashion – thats bad! But if the PRC does anything else? No answers necessary…
so china has to deal with these facts, these are not insecurities.
So now you are admitting you are contesting for power, as versus the Japanese trying to attack the PRC..
Finally, a late admission.
I know, facts don’t go down well with you.
More like your over the top political posturing wouldn’t go down well with anyone…
and that is a sign of insecurity on part of india. when has chinese building roads and cell-phone towers in its own country a threat to India? do you think china wouldn;t react when India dial up its military posturing? while same time refuse any negotiations unless it gets everything it wants?
LOL, at your claims! Innocent cell-phone towers indeed! Roads, logistic lines, military exercises & cross border incursions, and in turn India should open “negotiations”. And you desire the PRCs neighbours would’nt react to such brazen displays of power. Hardly.
Chinese build some roads in its borderlands and you are scared. I think this is a classic case of inferority complex driven paranoia, I think the best thing to do is talk over with Chinese. before you pluck down bunch money for military hardware and start a classic tit-for-tat arms race
Bwaaahaha…after all the whinging about the poor Chinese victim, racial slurs and what not, now its the Indians who have “inferority complex driven paranoia”. Projecting much?
So instead of defending their interests the Indians should “I think the best thing to do is talk over with Chinese” & roll over and play dead.
never too late to stop a stupid arms race.
Well if one side is stupid enough to begin it, even whilst its over the top supporters claim it is not, all the while complaining about the Japanese, the US…
Ah, and this whole argument has nothing to do with India what’s so ever,
just classic.
Yeah, the whole “arguement” about why China’s spending in the Indian NE, is a US conspiracy beats us all hollow..
I care to guess Teer is from India? judging by your passion?
No, no – I am part of the evil Japanese untermenschen group (splittist faction#1), out to invade China and kill millions..
Your obsession with race, nationalities as versus logical arguments leave a lot to be desired.
Teerblue
Kindly Quote properly. This blue font stuff does not show up in a reply. The quote tags are quite easy to apply “[quote] and [/..quote]
I think Blitzo and GoldenDragon has answered you pretty well.
Hardly..
Japan is already the pre-eminent naval power in East Asia, and they have a active alliance with the biggest, so given the history and current make up of naval power, the one should be worried about is Japan not china. is that a fair point?
What this boils down to is stating that the PRC is contesting naval superiority with Japan and the US. A far cry from the invasion and what not scenarios.
let’s just use the Japanese ww2 instrument of surrender is that fair?
well, the Japanese instrument of surrender from WW2 limits Japan’s soverignty to the 4 home islands. well, those 4 home island don’t include Okinawa. And the first victim of Japan’s expanison is Okinawan, which has tragically has had its culture almost entirely wiped out, on top of which has had to bear the majority of burden in term of american troop stationing, which tragically again is aimed at china. Okinawa is still part of japan today, oh btw basis of Japan’s claim on Senkuka island is based on that Okinawa is part of japan and they think Senkuka is part of Okinawa.
pretty sick if you ask me.
Every country has some dispute or the other. Take the PRC and ROC. The PRC claims the latter. The latter disagrees. You bring up Okinawa, the Japanese will bring up ROC. Who’s better?
Besides the nuke thing, It has the biggest navy in asia and 2nd biggest destroyer fleet with 2 mini flattops. and engage in a long standing military alliance with the largest military on earth.
All defensive measures. If they were arming their fleet with nukes, building actual carriers with strike aircraft, and not depending on some alliance but doing their own heavy lifting, you’d have a point. They are in an alliance to have the US defend them, as versus inciting a fight. Frankly, you are seeing a threat where little exists.
do you think that is consistent with the behavior of a pacificist? is this what you call pacficist?
you can only twist the argument for so long before truth catches up.
Ha. So if they don’t roll over and play dead, they are not pacifist. The fact that unlike the PRC, they don’t have an active offensive weapons program across the full spectrum of military systems doesn’t count for much.
Spare me the tedious claims about truth & twisting arguments pretty please. Don’t think you’ll convince anyone neutral about who exactly is more pacifist. The Japanese are way over the top defensive. Doesnt endear them to their so called allies at times either.
Yeah, their newest addition to the navy, a 18000 ton LHP is named after Dokdo. yeah and they did it to make a point. so don;t twist the argument. it is not only chinese that has a problem with Japan.
What twist. Answer the point, its you who evaded the issue. They have a LHP, not a carrier which can carry strike aircraft. Seems to me you have an issue with admitting the facts as they stand – which is other countries with issues w/Japan are nowhere close to acting as the PRC does.
and what is PLAN’s intent? Do you think any answer will be good enough for you all? besides the one that’s already made up in your mind?
Stick to the facts, and least it’d be interesting as versus the race stuff.
All i have asked you, is to measure China’s naval program with the same yard stick that measure others, that includes, Japan’s, Korean’s Indian’s and US’s if you are not able to do that and instead focus on this mythical “sneaky yellow *******s” stereotypes, then I must keep on throwing jeers at you.
You are the one with the big chip on your shoulder bringing up the ” mythical sneaky yellow *****’s stereotypes”! It seems clear that since you cant come up with convincing statements, all you can do is play the victim card!
Everyone here is measuring China’s naval program by the same yardstick. It seems clear China is contesting naval superiority with the USN and others, and even surpassing some neighbours. That is the intent. Instead of admitting this, you bring in the race card.
” I must keep throwing jeers at you” – how mature! Sort of like proudly claiming to throwing poo & thinking that will convince those asking you questions. By all means keep doing so, because all that does is show how silly your statements can be.
TeerNo more overwrought nonsense than this bull manure about the Chinese carrier.
And it does come down to race.
Millions of Chinese were killed by the Japanese and Chinese territory were invaded by foreigners.
But Japan is not questioned when it brings up that China is a “threat”? Japan attacked China not the other way around!
There are carriers around the world.
And YET only China’s carrier is questioned. Why is that? If it isn’t racial prejudice then what is it?
Knock yourself out with all your dislike for the Japanese. Very little to say, given your “insights” about race & what not.
TeerI think golden dragon first mentioned the Japanese but it wasn’t directly in the form of them invading the chinese mainland, but rather continued unease over Japan’s military potency.
What Japanese military potency? Where? Compared to China, they can’t do much. They have a first class Navy, and thats about it. They depend on the US for a nuclear deterrent (and nobody even know how far that stretches) and support, a limited population base, next to no offensive weaponry that can reach out and touch China, a national policy that is still wiffle waffle on even things like deployment to Afghanistan and this is military potency? Hardly.
And Golden Dragon clarified his “view” and what a view it is. Apparently, despite all the nukes and what not, the Japanese enemy nation can apparently kill millions of Chinese at will. Which of course, a single carrier (or carriers) will magically deter. Fantasist rubbish, TBH.
And the carriers are not primarily focused on disputes with other countries — like tphuang said a page back it’s mostly going to be for protecting their SLOCs, shipping from either the USN or even the IN.
With all due respect, thats tphuang’s opinion. Its as valid or not, as many of the other opinions in this thread, but it is not fact. At least we cannot say it is.
TeerJapan had invaded and kill millions of Chinese. That scenario is real and has been proven by history.
The scenario that the Japanese are projecting of a Chinese “threat” is far less real and has not be born out by history.
What is this bull manure about “mythical” Japanese invasion? Thirty million dead is mythical? Was the Holocaust mythical too? Or is only Chinese casualty “mythical”?
The carrier can’t protect China from a Japanese invasion or an American air strike similar to what had happened to Iraq. But it is a step towards modernizing a military beset by enemies with a history of invading and killing Chinese.
The only bull manure here is you whinging away about a possible Japanese threat and bringing up the Holocaust even. Congrats on invoking Godwins law.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
First all the race baiting about white men this, that & now this.
If past history is all that one should go by, then some Asian countries should be busy arming themselves against all those tiny nations which attacked them in centuries past.
The thought of Japan invading and killing “millions of Chinese” in today’s world is pure hyperbole and rubbish. That is the “mythical” part. Which you clearly didn’t grasp.
China has nuclear weapons with ICBMs, one of the largest armies in the world (perhaps even the largest) and claims of “a military beset by enemies with a history of invading and killing Chinese” are just overwrought nonsense.
Teerthen by this (absurd) logic then India should really blame the US for drawing so much of its resources to military spending rather than meaningful social programs. after all chinese build up is nothing but a reaction to the long standing US military presence to counter china. imagined or real.
…and hedging never works because Hisenberg uncertainty principle.
It is your logic that is absurd & your throwing around jargon fails to impress, seems pretty sophomoric as matter of fact. Apart from race baiting, its amazing to see the amount of insecurity you have versus the US, wherein it seems to be propping up all over the place, hiding under the bed and acting as a foil for every Chinese action.
“chinese build up is nothing but a reaction to the long standing US military presence to counter china” and this includes the India northeast, how? In your fervent imagination, perhaps. India is not part of some US alliance against China. And wont be either, unless China ups the ante so much that even that comes to pass.
China’s investments in its border warfare capabilities, its build of military capabilities in areas facing India – are what provoked India to respond. And these have nothing to do with the US. Or Japan. Or who knows which country you’ll drag in.
Teerwell,
Japan already has 2 mini-flattops and most capable destroyer fleet in Asia, I would argue 2nd only to USN.
If capability is their intention...the same yardstick that many of you judge the chinese naval program… then judging from Japan’s long standing naval capability they do intend to dominate East Asian waters for sometimes.I wouldn’t call a country who still has held on to ill-gotten gains since its embarkation upon its modern expanisonistic binge, and still has substantial means to dominate the waters in its neighborhood, a “pacficist”.
One of your compatriots was busy bringing up WW2 as a justification for the Chinese carrier. Which is fairly off the scale because there is no way in heck Japan can do a WW 2 since despite your claims of having flattops and a capable destroyer fleet, Japan’s force is all about protecting sea access to Japan, not about invading China!
And what expansionist binge or ill gotten gains are you talking about? Pretty much every country with an imperial past has had some expansionist angle or gains to boast of. When are you going to draw the line, and say enough? Every other Asian or African nation should be arming to face some European country or the other based on events which occurred ages ago and which bear little relation to events of today. With nuclear weapons, the thought of China being invaded or pushed around by Japan is a joke.
Japan is pretty pacifist all said and done. If it weren’t, it would be pursuing hostilities against the PRC, militarizing heavily with its own nuclear weapons programs or egging the US or other countries on to confront China, every bit of the way. Instead, its circumspect.
Think that’s just some rant by some chink?
It is a rant, and whats with this chink business? Some of y’all seem to be caught up in this race stuff way too much.
just ask the Koreans what their opinions is on Dokudo.
Proves the point. The Koreans don’t like Japan much either. Don’t see them investing in a Ukrainian carrier, acquiring it using claims of pvt ownership, refurbishing it yet not admitting openly to intent. All this was bizarre. The PRC could have as well said what it intended to do from day one. This kind of behavior is what fuels doubts about the PRCs intent.
…
Is it really so hard for you all to use the same yardstick to measure China? that you use to measure others?
If you are not really capable of being fair than stop pretending to be fair. it makes you all look like really bad hypocrites.
There you go again. Instead of being logical, all you have are insults about “hypocrites”. Some other dude was talking smack about “white people versus the rest” etc.
All this is ranting.
Speak of China’s doctrine, mention as to how the PRC sees it, and will pursue it. That’s it.
Attempting to tar and feather China’s neighbor’s is not half as effective as a plain statement of facts or intent.
Like it or not, China’s carrier has more to do with its disputes over the island chain than trying to fend off some mythical Japanese invasion. At least thats what a logical mind would think because the former scenario is more reasonable than something as unreasonable as a Japanese invasion (with what exactly, over expensive LCD TVs?).
TeerNo, the Chinese are actually doing provocative acts with naval ships near Japan (and elsewhere), and claiming total control (in opposition to International Maritime law) of open ocean vital to the interests of Japan and its neighbors.
Japan is merely reacting reasonably to acts of aggression and threats perpetrated BY CHINA!
Besides which the thought of Japan repeating a WW2 is a joke IMO. Japanese decision making is still notably pacifist besides which their Army can in no way mount an expeditionary campaign or even invade the PRC (not with any decent chance of success).
Sign In
