>>total nonesense conjured up by someone who doesn’t even know the basics

So, Air Vice Marshall (AVM) Khalid Chaudhry (Deputy Chief of Air Staff for Operations) is someone who doesnt even know the basics. Interesting. The things one learns..

Note: Speaking off the record, Chaudhry told A/S
Hillen that PAF aircraft are regularly called to provide air
support to military and security forces when they get into
tight spots in the FATA…dryily adding that Army brass and
the ground forces commanders would deny it. End note

Its rather clear he is referring to interservice rivalry wherein the Land forces deny that they were in a tight spot routinely needing airpower to get them out of it, not that its a secret the PAF is assisting the ops….

Without comparing the extent of the upgrades, a price comparison is meaningless.

Both are comparable, if anything, the MiG-29 one is more comprehensive given the MiG-29 will become a true multirole aircraft and structural modifications are being made for IFR and extra fuel..even if we add to the $964 Mn, the extra money for the TOT of the RD-33 engines to be made at HAL, but its still far less than the Mirage 2000. Even considering some costs may be “out” as the Indian side may supply some equipment for the Russians to integrate which may not be part of the overall costs to be paid to Russiia, it’ll still leave a substantial differential between the French and Russian upgade, French kit is pricey.

As part of the offset ($300 Million), Russians have committed to setting up spares depots & maintenance facilities for the MiG-29 Upg in India

Nicolas, the TOT arguement doesn’t hold ground, because for both the MiG-29 upgrade and the Mirage 2000 one, the OEMs will assist in local series modification of the fleet at HAL & or IAF facilities.

Bloodshot, thanks for the reminder. Am a klutz and I forgot to reply to your post. I think Elettronica Spa being a partner is very likely. BTW, Elettronica has been fairly open that its cooperating with India on several programs. Its Indian manager, an Italian person, has been very gung ho on cooperation saying the Indian side (DRDO) has some good tech & he thinks the Elettronica side can round out several programs. What DRDO designs, LSPs, BEL (a Public sector manufacturer) usually produces.

As to what the local guys would supply, they’d do all the rest. Basically, the MiG-29 EW suite – the RF part – would consist of a bunch of accurate receivers, linked to a central processor which receives the data, samples it using DRFM and then generates the appropriate jamming signals. All this would be Indian. Then they’d work with the partner to make the appropriate high power ECM hardware which would work with this central processor to counter multiple threats. Here, there’d be some Indian subystems, but if the foreign partner is supplying the latest AESA hardware, that would be acquired, and perhaps even license produced in India. The advantage of AESA is its compact form factor & you don’t need to scatter TWTs all across a space constrained airframe. Putting third party stuff on legacy planes like the MiG-29 is a tough thing so any modular, scalable ECM emitter would be appreciated by the Indian side. Which they’d customize to their requirements and integrate with their radar receiving, processing and signal generating units

BTW – may I ask the reason for your query? Everything I have said is public info, but just curious..:)

By the way all this R73RDM2 stuff is also net hype. The Russians only recognize two R73 types, one with the conventional fuse, they call the R73E, and one with a laser fuse which they call the K or something. The latest R73 variant is the MD, with better range and an improved seeker. Probably that would be equal to the mythical R73RDM2 which India never acquired, instead it had the R73E which itself is a fairly lethal missile

Twinblade

The INCOM is not the MKI specific datalink. Yes, it does have a datachannel, but the MKIs use specific Polyot datalinks able to network sixteen aircraft together. The Phalcons in Russia would have been kitted out with the relevant hardware/software to interface with these datalinks. But all the IAF aircraft, at least the ones the IAF chooses, will receive the ODL – Operational Datalink, which is in pilot phase of deployment, far more capable than the Russian datalink on the Polyot, higher bandwidth etc. May act as an adjunct to existing Russian datalinks on MKI. Also, INCOM was used to talk to other aircraft with INCOM, always helps to have your own non COTS, indigenous radio. But it is now replaced by HALs SDR – Software Defined Radio, which will be used on all upgrades and future aircraft (at least ones in near future).

The problem is that Rafale gets its first Meteor in 2018 and SU-30’s BVR missiles outperforms the MICA by a long distance..Besides ,Flankers Phazotron Zhuk AESA is not that bad I read somewhere ..

Question is who has the exact ranges of Mica vs RVVAE to say which outperforms which by what category. Plus there is no Russian counter to the Mica-IR in operational service (Alamo-T does not have MCG), plus Phazatron Zhuk AESA is just a dream for now. The MiG-35 version itself is yet to be fully developed.

I thought the IAF had never used Bars radar during foreign exercises.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2008/01/04/220616/india-bans-su-30mki-fighters-from-using-radars-during-red-flag-nellis.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sukhoi_Su-30MKI

Hi there, Colibri, those links are mistaken.

The IAF did not use their IFF, datalinks, jammers plus chaff & flares at Red Flag, but they did use their radars in a training mode.

By the time the exercises at Mountain Home had matured … the Indian Air Force had graduated to large formation exercises which featured dozens of jets in the sky. In one of these exercises … the blue forces, of which the Indian Air Force was a part … shot down more than 21 of the enemy jets. Most of these `kills’ have been credited to the Indian Air Force.

By the time the Indian Air Force was ready for Red Flag, the contingent had successfully worked up using the crawl, walk, run principle. At Red Flag though, they found themselves at a substantial disadvantage vis a vis the other participants since they were not networked with AWACS and other platforms in the same manner in which USAF or other participating jets were. In fact, Indian Air Force Sukhois were not even linked to one another using their Russian built data links since American authorities had asked for specifics of the system before it was cleared to operate in US airspace. The IAF, quite naturally, felt that this would compromise a classified system onboard and decided to go on with the missions without the use of data links between the Sukhois.Neither was the Indian Air Force allowed to use chaff or flares, essential decoys to escape incoming missiles which had been fired by enemy jets. This was because the US FAA had visibility and pollution related concerns in the event that these were used in what is dense, busy air space in the Las Vegas region.

The Red Flag exercises themselves were based on large force engagements and did not see the Indian Air Force deploy thrust vectoring at all on any of the Sukhoi 30 jets not that this was required since the engagements were at long ranges.Though it is true that there were 4-5 incidents of fratricides involving the Indian Air Force at Red Flag … it is important to point out the following:In the debriefs that followed the exercises … responsibility for the fratricides were always put on the fighter controllers not the pilots. Its also important to point that unlike in Mountain Home, none of the Indian Air Force’s own fighter controllers were allowed to participate since there was classified equipment at Nellis used for monitoring the exercises. The lack of adequate controlling and the fact that Nellis fighter controllers often had problems understanding Indian accents (they had problems understanding French accents as well) resulted in a lack of adequate controlling in situations. Whats more … given the fact that the availability of AWACS was often low … the bulk of fratricides took place on days when the AWACS jet was not deployed. Whats important to remember though is that US participants in these exercises had a similar number of fratricides despite being fully linked in with data links and the latest IFF systems.

So was the Indian Air Force invincible at Red Flag. In a word … no. So yes, there were certainly days in which several Sukhoi jets were shot down. And there were others when they shot down many opposing jets. Ultimately though … the success of the Indian Air Force at Red Flag lay in the fact that they could meet their mission objectives as well, if not better, than any other participant. Despite the hot weather conditions, the IAF had a 95 per cent mission launch ratio, far better than some of the participants. And no one went into the exercises thinking the score line would be a perfect one in favour of the IAF. In fact … the IAF went into these exercises with an open mind and with full admiration of the world beating range at Nellis with an unmatched system of calibrating engagement results.Perhaps the most encouraging part of these exercises comes from the fact that the Indian Air Force’s young pilots … learnt from their mistakes, analysed, appreciated and came back strong. Mistakes were not repeated. In fact … the missions where the IAF did not fare well turned out to be immense learning experiences. At the end of the exercises … its more than clear that the IAF’s Su-30s were more than a match for the variants of the jets participating at the Red Flag exercises. Considering the fact that the central sensor of the Sukhoi, its radar … held up just fine in training mode …despite the barrage of electronic jamming augurs well for the Indian Air Force.

The above is by Vishnu Som, a journo who had access to RF-08. On several days, the Su-30’s topped the kill charts.

The IAF did not use the Bars at all, when they visited the UK. This was prior to RF-08.

The IAF also used the Bars when they visited France for Garuda, after RF (the latest one). IAF Su-30 MKIs flew with, and against Mirage 2000s and Rafales as part of mixed force packages. French sources rated the Bars highly, giving the Sukhois the first look advantage (and mentioned they too had some tactics to continue with the BVR fight even if the Sukhois got the first look) and noted all sides used all their available equipment (the Indians did not use jammers though). I daresay though even here, the IAF did not use all the modes on the Bars – that’d be my take given the importance of the Bars.

Within India, in foreign exercises, the IAF has extensively used the Bars.
Eg versus Tornados. Disregarding the overenthusiastic tone of this particular journo (who has a habit of slipping into such talk)
http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2006-10-14/india/27787493_1_sukhoi-30mkis-iaf-pilots-air-defence-fighters

The article did make the point the Sukhois did well in BVR, but did not use the Bars to its full capability.

“The British should have brought their new Euro-fighter Typhoons. The Tornado-F3 air defence fighters were no match for our Sukhoi-30MKIs, which performed exceptionally well in BVR (beyond-visual range) combat,” said an IAF pilot. “Sukhoi-30MKI is our golden goose. We don’t want to expose all its eggs to even friendly forces. We did not exploit its spectrum of capabilities. For instance, we did not open all operating modes of its radars,” said a senior IAF officer.

Basically my point was that the Bars has held up well & earned its rep. As to why the IAF is ok with using it in exercises and exposing it to “foreign AF”, well they have to train as they aim to fight, even if limiting some capabilities plus from reports, it appears that even the current Bars (MK3 version) will begin to be supplanted over the coming decade by a follow on version, or an entirely new AESA system

The retiring IAF Chief, PV Naik recently mentioned that the series upgrade of the Su-30 will begin from 2016 onwards, after two aircraft are sent to Russia for their MLU. We know a bit about what would be included though,
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story/Fierce+fighter/1/99261.html

The Russians (per NIIP) were pushing for the first upgrades (Block1) to include a Bars upgrade, and then transition to AESA. Its not known yet, whether this proposal has been adopted, or whether the IAF wants AESA from day one, on its upgrades.

Hope this helps,
Cheers,
Teer

The Bars already has great performance, allowing for the Flanker-H to get the first look advantage despite the large RCS of an untreated Flanker operating even without jamming.

Operating in training mode in Red Flag, the Flankers racked up good scores at Red Flag-08, despite presence of heavy jamming.

At Indradhanush, earlier against Tornado F3s, the Flankers held their own & more. The RAF Force Commander referred to his aircraft as X Wing tech as versus the Flanker H which he said was death star tech. Again, the IAF operated the Bars with reduced number of modes.

Against the RSAF, the MKIs won all engagements against RSAF F-16 Block 50/52s, even while the F-16s were on an even keel versus the Mirage 2000 & MiG-29 both non upgraded, but superior to the Bisons (this worried the IAF a bit which set out to evaluate, improve its Bison’s tactics)

Against the French in Garuda (the latest), the French noted the Bars had excellent range and gave IAF pilots the first look advantage (to which they too employed countermeasures).

My point is that a Bars with an AESA antenna, with improved transmission power (having increased average power & reduced losses in the Tx channel common to conventional TWT radars), plus LPI modes (possible if the Flanker radar is a derivative of the NIIP radar developed for the PAK.FA), and the huge 1 Mtr array advantage, will make the Flanker-H dominant in the first look arena.

Add some RCS reduction which India already has access to via the LCA & other programs – i.e. treated canopies, RCS paint etc & some Russian assistance (e.g. ITAE methods) – and the Flanker will improve even further.
Will probably be not used at peacetime to save on operational costys.

The Super30 upgrade per reports will also come with improved avionics including improved EW fit. If we see the current MiG-29 EW upgrade, improved jammers are also possible. Data fusion is also something conceived as part of the upgrade. The R118 RWR used on current Flankers already fuses data & presents it on a single screen. The Russians are also sensor fusing the data on the Su-35.

One critical “weakness” in the Flanker arsenal is the lack of a real long range BVR missile. The RVV-AE & RVV-SD are only 80-100 km class missiles, with actual range likely to be halved against maneuvering fighter class targets. Thats a significant advantage (presence of a long range radar like Bars, or even a Bars follow on) wasted. The Astra1 & 2 will still be in the RVV-AE/SD class. India needs a Meteor class missile to truly make use of the Flanker radar advantage.

Until then, the Meteor equipped EF & Rafale may have the edge.