TeerScorpion is there a post by you, or any info somewhere about the capabilities of the EF offered to India, and what features it will have, in A2A and A2G. I get confused about the myriad Tranches and Blocks and what will be on the Indian fighters, if chosen
TeerMh, does nobody have an idea about the Thales / Samtel JV on IRST? Any French media reports about it? What are your opinions about it, could it be that Thales is diverting the FSO production to India, especially the IR channel?
Sancho, setting up production facilities for the IR detectors, that make up the heart of any thermal imager or IRST or FLIR, is not an inexpensive task. It will require substantial investment from Samtel, which it would have publicized heavily. And only if orders were assured, which as of this point, are not. What will be transferred is possibly some engineering production (CAD/CAM files + training for manufacture of some components), assembly rights, and some ability for Samtel to contribute in terms of integration, customization, and provide local support and maintenance (with assistance from Thales). There are only two programs (which I know of) for significant TOT & coproduction of IR components, and both involve BEL. The costs involved are so high, that both programs are taking undue time to process.
TeerWhats a viscous circle? While its probable the US has penetrated the ISI, its more likely its money which did the trick, as is usual.
Both cases would be of major concern to Pakistan. In the former case, the CIA has satisfactorily infiltrated the Pakistan Army and Air Force. This is plausible given the filtering of “religiously inclined” officers from the force and the active encouragement of the most secular, opportunist and amoral recruits, who are by a viscous circle, more likely to apply to the present armed forces in the first place…
Anyways, this clearly shows the Pakistanis were not in the loop, not until the op was over anyhow.
You have Leon Panetta saying it as explicit as it gets.
http://www.vanguardngr.com/2011/05/osama-why-us-ignored-pakistan/
In his first interview since commanding the mission to kill Osama bin Laden, Panetta said that U.S. officials feared that Pakistan could have undermined the operation by leaking word to its targets.
Then you have reports on the fight your way out aspect.
http://swampland.time.com/2011/05/03/obama-pushed-for-fight-your-way-out-option-in-bin-laden-raid/
About 10 days before the raid, Mr. Obama reviewed the plans and pressed his commanders as to whether they were taking along enough forces to fight their way out if the Pakistanis arrived on the scene and tried to interfere with the operation.
Pretty sure that the US would have had significant forces massing across the Afghan Pak border e.g. fighters (F/A-18s), sigint/AWACs & other assets to intervene if the PAF had tried to take out those choppers.
Its to the luck of the PAF that they did’nt intervene, if they had, things would have been significantly worse, and they would have lost men and machines. The US would have come loaded for bear, and would have had complete tactical surprise on their side, having massed assets while the Pakistanis would have had only the opportunity to send penny packet assets into a situation which they knew little about, whats a few F-16s against a much larger, more integrated fleet armed with BVR weapons and supported by AWACS etc, that too with the USAF knowing pretty much everything about assets they themselves sold/gave to Pakistan.
With Obama threatening further unilateral action in the future as well, as required, the best thing for the PAF to do is sit out such situations, there is no way in heck a PAF vs USAF/USN conflict would end on a good note for the PAF. The organizational disparity (platforms, supporting assets, training, weapon systems, numbers) is just too wide.
As for radars not working, the US could have done so many things there, its not even funny. Given US assets (drones) operate from Pak’, its even reasonable to surmise USAF etc assets do fly into PAF airspace, are assigned proper IFF codes etc. These stealth ones could have just accompanied a diversionary flight and then gone onto Abbotabad, flying NOE with some good old jamming added to the mix. Or they could have directly gone to A’bad with those stealth mod choppers flying NOE with other assets blinding PAF radars. The point is the US is a past master at this sort of op having learnt so many hard lessons over the years on expeditionary warfare & putting SF in harms way over large distances.
While it is a bitter pill for Pak, PAF to swallow, the fact remains that if the US chooses to repeat such an incident (Mullah Omar, Al Zawahari or whosoever) it will. The only other option for Pak is to take the hard road, and that will just lead to overt hostilities, so just live with it or do what the US says in terms of prosecuting such assets, try to embed some guys and make it a joint op. But with the trust deficit as clear from Obama’s and Panetta’s words, that’s unlikely to happen.
TeerTeer, I don’t think the PAF is gearing itself for deep strike missions inside indian airspace anytime soon. I think historically, it’s fair to say that it’s primarily been a defensive fighter force, without any large deep strike aircraft. The current and future projection is also orientated around this concept, whether due to simple limitations, or by design. I’m guessing the MAR-1 will primarily be used to suppress any local battlefield deployed radar systems in support of any ground forces, primarily as a repost to cold start.
In that case the MAR-1 may well prove useful against some battlefield AD, but the problem is the threats are so various. SpyDers etc are F&F- it becomes a big problem as there are so many radars around, how do you determine which is cueing a missile onto you in F&F mode just using TWS.
This is the reason I was harping on a dedicated offboard sensor for ranging, radar type discrimination etc. in a more comprehensive fashion than what the seeker can provide (basic info). Basically a dedicated ESM/Targeting tool which can store data for offline analysis and can correlate info.
The MAR-1 was developed using Skyguard radars as a tool, which is useful in a way since a lot of the legacy IAF AAA is cued by such radars, but the modern AD network is either relying on F&F SHORAD systems, or mobile mid range systems. As the Kosovo conflict proved, suppressing Command Guided missiles is a very hard task, if the shooters and missile platforms are mobile.
When speaking of Cold Start, the thing is apart from the massive CADA the Army itself will field (Corps of Air Defense Arty), there is also the IAF to reckon with. The IAF will be tasked with maintaining battlefield air superiority – which should be possible, given the platform discrepancy (quality, quantity) between the IAF & PAF.
Hence, IMHO, just 100 missiles means they really cant be used with a lot of leeway, hence I was thinking they might be used in a couple of big ticket strike attempts.
However, using them for battlefield strikes as a self defense tool at least makes some sense! Might allow low flying PAF aircraft to at least distract some AD AAA targeting them while they try to attack IA land columns. The Bisons are likely to use the Kh-25 in the same way, as a self defense tool.
What you said about the defensive fighter force concept, if true today, really makes the PAF vulnerable IMO. Unless they can make a strong offensive play, they will cede ground to the IAF+IA doctrine. The IAF will also continue to hammer away at PAF bases. The entire PAF light fighter concept needs rework IMO and needs to transition to heavier types, if the PAF wants to actually contribute to a sustainable defense, because only those, even with heavy attrition have some hope of trying to hit back.
TeerI do not think that an India-Pakistan scenario will require a saturation of Indian defenses in the manner the US typically does. Such wars will be border affairs.
That era is passe, look at the kind of platforms India is fielding now and the ubiquitous requirement that they all have IFR. The era of tactical forward bases with MiG-21s is drawing to a close on the Indian side. Every upgrade includes IFR as well, plus more modern powerplants or payload combos (eg more fuel, see the MiG-29 upgrade “hump”).
Hence, the writing on the wall is clear, Future conflicts may see aircraft from other commands being deputed to WAC or SWAC, striking targets in a war and then returning to their home bases much deeper into Indian territory. This was what Mirage 2000’s did in Kargil as well. But now, those sort of capabilities are being standardized across the fleet. To strike Indian bases in the hinterland, not just temporary staging areas closer to the border, PAF will have to run a gauntlet of defenses & hence suppress defenses for a long time. Due to geographical constraints on the Pak, side, the reverse is not true.
Now this becomes a very challenging task. Even when the striking force has complete technological superiority.
Take a look at Mission Q.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Package_Q_Strike#The_Strike
Please look at the F-4 limitations in particular, despite the fact they could carry a very effective ranging system for cueing their HARM and had two HARM each, and had a WSO. Even so, that did not prove sufficient & fuel restrictions made them withdraw.
JF-17 type quasi-light fighters will have fuel and payload restrictions on deep strikes & coordinating deep strike packages will be very tricky, especially when facing staggered modern defense in depth networks like India is setting up, especially when unlike the Iraq case, the IAF will have more modern platforms like the Su-30 MKI or the MMRCA etc to back up their SAM/sensor networks. If composite JF-17, Mirage and F-16 packages are made, Package Q style difficulties are likely to occur even more, differing fighters with differing payload/range problems, endurance, and even situational awareness.
So you need heavy longer ranged fighters (more endurance), substantial numbers of ARMs (so they can be used liberally), a proper onboard cueing sensor for long range work (not rely on the missile seeker alone) to escort other aircraft with ECM, and the actual strike package
IMO, this is why weapons like the HAROP/HARPY are increasingly popular, they can be used for defense suppression independent of sending manned aircraft over & can do dangerous tasks more effectively, paving the way for manned strike packages.
As for numbers, we do not know how many were bought for sure, and it is most likely transfer of technology was involved, thus in-house production for Pakistan, similar to the 550s for the Mirages.
Pak didnt license produce the 550 AFAIK
TeerA good step forward for the PAF given they had next to no similar systems in inventory, but the limited numbers acquired indicate it will have a limited effect in terms of hard kills. The lack of a parachute/ALARM style system in the graphic indicates that it operates similar to the HARM. Huge numbers were expended in the Kosovo war with limited results indicating that these systems are not necessarily effective in DEAD but more of SEAD for limited strike package work.
Also, another limiting factor is the lack of a dedicated acquisition unit, modern PESA/AESA units have very low sidelobe levels, making detection and rangefinding difficult, and a dedicated acquisition system a la the HTS could have minimized the time spent in enemy airspace & extended the range at which a detection of a hostile set could be made. For similar reasons, the IAF chose not to go with the Pastel RWR directed Kh-31 but had a local pod developed specifically for that purpose (HADF).
IMO, this system while useful, would have been far more effective if it had some sort of Loiter capability, a la the ALARM (if it doesnt) or even the Harpy/Harop style systems, which while completely different, suppress defences for a long time.
TeerScaremongering thats all it is..
The IAF is on a massive remodernization spree and just wants it to be sped up even more..
Right now:
68 Jag Upg
61 MiG-29 Upg
50 Su-30 MKI Upg to be followed by fleet upgrade (from 2016 onwards)
100+ An-32 Upg
New Acquisitions
150 odd Su-30 MKIs to add to the 120 odd currently
126 (+83 options MMRCA)
140 LCA (+40-60 more estimated)
Projects launched
250-300 FGFA
150+ MCA (replace Jaguars)
AEW&C
3 Phalcons + 3 local
six under negotiation for former, several planned for latter
There are so many programs underway right now, its hard to even remember item lists..
Teerhttp://www.ntv.ru/peredacha/smotr/
Teer, check out the first part of this vid. Really good shots of Mi-29UPG, including new EW systems.
Thanks to mack8 for finding this!
Thanks mate, will check it out!!
TeerPopeye (& even the updated Crystal Maze) is a very different missile from Scalp/Storm Shadow. It has a fraction of the range, & a much smaller warhead, with far less capability against hard targets. They’re not in the same class.
Of course I know that. It was merely a bit of info for Nicolas that while there have been public reports about integration of Popeye variants, there has been next to no talk of any Scalp EG integration etc, at least none that I know of. At best, the Micas have been mentioned and general talk of A2G munitions etc.
Another interesting thing is that the talk of the Mirage upgrade gained momentum when the Mirage 2000-H’s first tangled with the French AF Mirage 2000-RDIs at the first Indradhanush. It quickly became clear to the IAF, that the Mirage was increasingly obsolete in the A2A BVR arena. The French were getting their shots off first. Later, an Air Chief even made the telling remark that the Bison was “so good” that the radar was superior to that on the Mirages – not really a plus for the Mirage 2000-H, given the Kopyo-21 on the Bison is a capable radar, but still with limitations, i.e. ~57 km range. So at least the A2A matchup made the IAF realize the upgrade was long overdue. Or more likely, funding finally became available – to whatever extent (as the current haggling shows)
The only news about the “importance” that we can ascribe to the Mirage’s A2G role is thanks to its stellar Kargil performance, its use for some specialized roles in the IAF in the past apart from generic A2G. But with 270 Su-30 MKIs on the way & the MiG-29 Upgrade, I wonder.
I just read a Russian article for instance which credits the KAB-500 on the Su-30 with a range of ~80 km (presumably launched at speed & altitude). Plus it has the Kh-59 (100+ km range) and some 2 squadrons will receive the Brahmos (~300 km range) and the Nirbhay (as and when it is developed). Plus some other items. From 2016, the IAF is going for the Super-30 upgrade, AESA, new munitions, new avionics, the works. Pretty sure the new Russian AAMs & ASMs will accompany that upgrade, including the new Kh-38 series and any longer ranged items, e.g. any Kh-35 units as an “interim” till the Nirbhay becomes available.
IMO, the IAF has more options than a handful of silver bullet Mirage 2000’s to do the A2G function with Scalp-EG, but I’d be glad to be proven wrong!! The Scalp EG is a formidable weapon, and despite the upgrade being very expensive (IMO) the Mirage 2000 is a very capable fighter, with a lot of potential. This article from a decade back on the Mirage 2000 upgrade is the best that I have found so far.. he really did a great job, far better than most of what one reads in so called best of the best magazines
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3126/is_655_56/ai_n28851433/
TeerIf they were EW antenna, they were the same thing.
There’s also a Su-30 MKI EW upgrade planned, but I don’t know whether there is enough space inside the aircraft to include a comprehensive system. It may continue to rely on pods, albeit powerful and hence quite capable ones. Per public info, DARE is working on a variety of EW fits, including podded ones & towed decoys.
TeerI don’t understand what you are saying, but I suppose you mean that India already has cruise missiles of Scalp calibre, or is intent to buying some from another source? I was thinking they wanted to uprade the Mirages in order to be able to use Scalp mostly.
Nic
Where has it said that India is buying Scalp or it is doing the Mirage upgrade for the Scalp? The Mirages already operate the Popeye.
http://www.deagel.com/Standoff-Weapons/Crystal-Maze_a001070005.aspx
http://www.indianexpress.com/storyOld.php?storyId=83868
TeerOut of curiosity, you got any links about this?
-Thanks!
TR1, I have an image file someplace, will have to dig the link up – I did have it a couple of days back.
The layout is straightforward, you have multiple receivers covering 360 degrees which act as an input to the unified exciter, receiver, processor which is the “brains” of the outfit and contains all the software and critical algorithms, allowing it to sample the input, digitize it, apply the relevant EW technique, and then send it to the transmitters. The system contains DRFM as well to help it achieve its tasks.
These systems are from DARE (DRDO) which is the EW (airborne) specialist and its local partners. The Tx (Transmit) chain is linked to three Active Array Units, two of these cover the front and aft and the last covers the back of the aircraft. Basically, you have substantial coverage, far more than the usual jammer. These are in turn linked to their main control & power units, basically a couple of solid state transmit and receive units.
A variant of this layout is on the LCA as well. Due to weight/volume constraints it relies on conventional tx chain, but which are reasonably capable and multiband. Again, the architecture is the same, multiple receivers, including high accuracy direction finders, feeding the input to a central processor, and from then to the respective tx modules and antenna.
Hope this helps.
TeerMaybe Dassault overpriced the bid to try and help the sale of Rafales to the UAE (so that they could sell their Mirages to India)?
Other than that we don’t know what or how many weapons are provided for either bid. An upgrade with Mica and Scalp isn’t the same as the purchase of Mig 29K without weapons for instance.
Nic
Hi Nic, even so, the Mirage upgrade is tres expensive, looking at the estimates Toan put up.
The MiG-29 upgrade is cheaper by around half even though it includes around 20% more aircraft.
For the same price of an upgrade India could purchase a brand new LCA with all the bells and whistles, MK2 version.
They are being brought up to the Mirage 2000-5 level, which even though it is capable (at Block 50 F-16 level) is not at the same technology level as todays fighters. Considering todays aircraft, the Mirages are not even at the level of say a Boeing F-15S version as sold to Saudi Arabia with AESA radars, FLIR etc.
The prices simply dont add up.
The only reason (IMO) India is going with Thales/Dassault is because they are the original OEMs and India does not want to rock the spares supply for the rest of the Mirage airframe, plus needs them for life extension assistance.
Otherwise, a combo Indo-Israeli effort (Indian displays/ MC/Stores management/EW/radios/Mission Planning System + Israeli 2032 radar/ ELOP 967 HUD/ DASH HMS/datalink/backupradio Derby+Python+Spice+Popeye+Griffin laser guided bomb) would have worked just as well for Indian requirements and would be cheaper.
Take a look at the Jaguar upgrade costs and even doubling them, it still works out so much cheaper than the French offer for the Mirage 2000
IMO, while it will result in a capable fighter and a big boost to Indian AF, its still a ripoff cost wise.
TeerLet me get this straight:
The IAF says $2,2 bn is too much to bring 50 M2K to -5 Mk2 standard, but they are about to pay $5,2 bn to upgrade 68 Jaguars? :confused:
Dude 😮
Nic
Check Toans edit – he’s clarified the numbers. The Mirage numbers are pretty high considering there have been no reports (AFAIK) that the engines will be replaced.
TeerNice list Toan.
A few more things about the Su-30 MKI Upgrade, apart from the AESA, cockpit upgrade & new weapons. It’ll also have a new Gen Mission Comp (HAL/DRDO), new EW suite from DRDO, SDR (Software Defined Radio) developed by HAL
MiG-29 Upgrade – it’ll have a brand new Indian EW suite with AESA jammers, developed with help from a foreign partner, tied to a Indian developed central receiver/ processor & signal generator w/DRFM, able to handle multiple threats.
The DARIN-3 upgrade will also have the HAL/DRDO Mission Comp, new avionics items including the HAL SDR.
The LCA MK-2, new avionics suite, modernized from earlier one, including RWRs with HADF capability and internal jammers.
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