Going by his posts Teer appears to be some one in the know who has access to classified information and is being careful at what he disclose here. It can be frustrating to other poster sbut I have learnt to accept the fact that he knows what he is talking about.

Quad, thanks. But just to clarify, I am not claiming any access to any classified info., and nor would I state/post such stuff online.

^You argue that the Kaveri’s significance lies in the competency India has gained in gas turbine design. To that I can only replied that I acknowledged that from the very start, in which case you ought to stop arguing. The AURA may have Kaveri or a new engine design. Neither your words nor mine is going to affect that decision, so there’s nothing more to be said.

I wonder if we are speaking the same language, because so far everyone else who has followed this discussion has got what I am saying, but you are still stuck on proving an arcane point about GTRE and competence and what not.

The simple point is that with the Kaveri India has a 40Kn -50Kn class turbofan engine, which it can use/modify anywhich way it wants. At any rate, a variety of applications are possible with the basic design itself, as the KMGT shows!

Instead of asking me to stop arguing and trying to score points, first understand what is being said.

Now you think the AURA may have a “new engine design” – when you dont even have enough details on the AURA will be and whether it is the only program! And for obvious reasons, you’d like to keep cost low & use what you already have and are not dependent on JVs for, vis a vis strategic requirements.

Interesting. You’ll pardon me for saying I have a feeling the AEWC thing may not happen(since CABS has said that after the first batch is delivered they’ll be looking to switch to a larger platform)

How many AWACS do you think India needs, and how many do you think we are acquiring so far?

but I can see MPA and SIGINT versions. I wonder if the Navy’s new MPA tender is going to be scrapped then.

No cancellations, These are in addition to, not replacements of, the current requirements.

What about a special forces version akin to the MC-130?

It did mention a paratroop specific variant for special missions..but no further details were provided.

Please share!

I’d like to hear that as well. Does it include the possibility of a civilian derivative(like the old IL-214-100 airliner proposal)?

Unfortunately, I don’t remember the civilian side of things at that public event, but the roles which were discussed included a variety of homeland security roles, special mission roles (e.g. AEW&C, special forces kit etc) plus non IAF roles such as Maritime Patrol for the Navy etc. There were also a couple more, but lets leave those out now. Interestingly, HAL was mentioned as being closely involved with overall design, including the critical wing structure, and ADE with the Flight control system.

You’ve edited your post to be more civil.

I actually edited it to add more information. It was civil to begin with.

You are judging the extent of my knowledge based on statements given without considering what thought processes went on before they were made. That is ‘cursory’. I assure you I did think about the explanations you provided.

If you did think things through, your posts did’nt reflect it, at any rate lets move on.

As I said to you once before, being so uptight about having only 100% confirmed, official, public domain knowledge on this forum is… ridiculous.

To turn that back on you, where are the confirmed, public announcements on the acceptance and delivery of KMGT and other spinoffs? Absence of evidence cannot be taken as evidence of absence, but it cannot be taken as evidence of prescence either.

Actually, I am pointing out that you are the one relying on only “100% confirmed, official, public domain knowledge” and nor are you fully aware of all the stuff thats been reported in the past. Nor are you working in any of the organizations. Nor are you working in the same field to have your own insights and look beyond what Aroor et al claim. Basically, you are playing with a limited hand, at best. Given this, your making definitive statements about what the Kaveri may or may not be used for….is ridiculous.

And as regards “turning it back on me”, clearly you are unaware that the Indian Navy has been very vocal about its support for the KMGT and similar programs in its seminars on indigenization, and even the easily available indigenization vision document mentions it.

http://indiannavy.nic.in/dme.pdf

Wait, so you knew the answer all along and yet withheld it and called me out on the truthfulness of that statement?

No, I pointed out that your interpretation of that slide was flawed. It was a typical case of how, despite not knowing even a tenth of the details and what can one know from one slide, you jumped to conclusions.

You came to the conclusion that it was a program for the actual series production engine (no, its not – its a JV to develop core technologies for a TD) and it would be used for the AURA, when that slide mentions nothing about the power output, and the AURA. ADE has described the AURA as capable of surveillance and weaponization, and also mentions “high speed”.

And you quote Aroor as reliable – the same guy, who says “under development ostensibly to power AURA, India’s stealth UCAV concept, and the Nirbhay cruise missile currently under development by the Advanced Systems Laboratory (ASL). Will update this post with specifications and more photographs in a few days. – in other words, he just guessed because he didnt know better, and he’ll update it after a few days with more copy paste misinterpretations, just so that more people click on his blog. Now do you realize how unreliable he is? He doesn’t put any effort in actually determining whats what & mostly relies on hyperbole and put downs, when it comes to discussing serious technology.

Worldwide UCAV demonstrators like the Neuron and other, in fact use proper powerplants like the Adour and even more powerful still, for series production versions! In other words, the development of this miniature gas turbine, in no way reduces the need for the Kaveri. Have you considered what a properly weaponized UCAV would require as a powerplant?

http://wn.com/Dassault_nEUROn_stealth_UCAV_programme

So now, how can you believe that this engine replaces the need for the Kaveri? Are you aware of the power output of this small gas turbine as publicly reported in the past? Its much much lower! For your information, the power o/p publicly spoken for the Small Gas Turbine is in the range of 3-4.5 Kn!! Whats the dry thrust of the Kaveri MK1?

But there is an engine planned and it is clearly a different project from the Kaveri.

Already explained previously..this is in no way near the Kaveri, and by no means anywhere sufficient for a proper UCAV roadmap, whereas the Kaveri Mk1 offers that capability.

Again with the “only 100% confirmed and announced onlee”. While it’s difficult to explain in words, I know enough to make what I believe are fairly accurate deductions, even if they obviously aren’t fact: the IAF already has an IJT and AJT, so Kaveri-trainer is unlikely. The Auro MALE is about as advanced a UCAV project as you can go for, and it has a prospective engine design that will probably be different from the Kaveri. And I discounted civilian spin-offs(perhaps unfairly) since they are always there for military R & D.

If its difficult to explain in words, then consider the fact that you may be making incorrect inferences, or have very limited information to work on.

Lets begin with some of the statements you have made above, the engine, as I mentioned previously, is nowhere as powerful as required to be used for an all up UCAV. And nor is there any certainty, that AURA is the only program that is likely to emerge in the future, and the more advanced the UCAV, the greater the payload, the larger the need for a heavy turbofan.

And second, just because the IAF has an IJT and AJT, a trainer using Kaveri derivatives is not necessarily unlikely. Why? Because there is no certainty, that the IAF may rely on the AL-55 alone for its IJTs or that there wont be any more training additions in the future, as in LIFTs, based on a simplified LCA platform. There are a number of proposals floating around, and the IAF may well pick up on them.

Let me modify my previous statement: Until I hear of an actual derivative(as opposed to a new engine developing using the skills gained on the Kaveri, which is different from my opinion of the Kaveri itself and was acknowledged before) for trainers and UAVs, I do not think the Kaveri in itself has much of a future within the IAF.

You are of course, free to think this, all I am pointing out is that your opinion is not necessarily fact, in how things may shape up, given the amount of evidence there is to the contrary.

As for the question of getting engines for domestic aerospace programs, outside of the LCA programme both HAL and the IAF have been relatively content to use foreign engines, as with the ALH, LCH, IJT and MTA. The Tejas was the only programme that was seriously held up for want of an engine.

They have been using foreign engines because they have had no other option. “Content to use foreign engines” – seriously?! The IJT, after a very short design to airframe design to LS production cycle was held up like anything for the Russian engine, the LCH/ALH team have had to face periodic arm-twisting aka renegotiation over engine supplies and what not..

The lack of local engine capability is a huge pain, and the IAF has also begun to realize it as in recent years, they have been tiring of the supply chain efforts they have to do, which normally the OEM should do..the aging of the MiG fleet has opened their eyes from the halycon days of the Soviet Union when everything was available, and dirt cheap.

If this is aimed at me, I hope you understood that my intent was to point out how unlikely the option was. As is Kaveri on MiG-29s, if for a different reason.

The point was, which you missed, that the Kaveri, as a 40-50Kn dry thrust engine, has a variety of applications available to it, which open up the vista for Indian aerospace applications. That you chose to ignore this aspect by comparing it to the possibility of being used for the Jaguar re-engining, for which its clearly unsuited, that was erroneous.

Taygibay, nice post and thanks for the links. I dont see what the report being from September 12, does to detract from its credibility. In fact, it makes it recent.

The SFC request, as accessed by PTI (Press Trust of India) states,

The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) has submitted a proposal to the defence ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of fighter aircraft which will act as “mini-Air Force”, ministry sources told PTI.

This will be the first time that SFC, which at present depends on the Indian Air Force for delivering nuclear weapons under its command, will have its own aerial assets, they said. The SFC does not want untested fighters but the ones which are battle proven and have capabilities to deliver nuclear-tipped missiles, the sources said.

The Rafale has a plus in being configured for the deterrent role in French use, and has been used in Afghanistan, but these SFC fighters are likely to be operated by the IAF, and hence I wonder whether they’ll be ready to invest in another new type, if the Rafale does not win the MMRCA.

Re Teer

Your post about use of Kaveri on LIFT is hope? or info?

Curious, time will tell. What I can say is that based on data shared at a public but relatively unpublicized “boring” symposium, is that there was a substantial need for the Kaveri beyond the LCA, these included trainers -LIFT, regular trainers and a variety of aero applications. All needed the Kaveri or an equivalent (a local engine), for cost and other reasons. Alternatives, like using MiG engines etc were also shot down as they were fuel hungry and most would be nearing the end of their lives.

At the same event, there were also details released about the number of applications for the MTA beyond just a transport. Again, these should also become clear over time.

I get the feeling you are/were trying to be derisive and dismissive. About the Kaveri, the AL-55 has already been earmarked for the trainers with upto 1000 engines in the pipeline. For UCAVs the GTRE itself had previously unveiled a ‘joint venture’ with Saturn. The Kaveri may have given the GTRE competence in engine design, but in itself isn’t more than an R & D project aside from the KMGT.

I wasnt being derisive or dismissive but just noting how your categorical statements on the program and its intent, showed a cursory knowledge of the program.

Take for instance: “About the Kaveri, the AL-55 has already been earmarked for the trainers with upto 1000 engines in the pipeline. ” – this presupposes that the IJT is the only trainer program India will depend on, and will launch, and that series production of all AL-55 engines have already been agrreed upon.

Second: “For UCAVs the GTRE itself had previously unveiled a ‘joint venture’ with Saturn. ” – who says GTRE unveiled any sort of joint venture with Saturn? Show me one official press release from the GTRE end saying anything of the sort, as versus dubious speculation from folks like Prasun Sengupta? If GTRE is developing an engine, what is it for, and is it the only engine that will power all air vehicles India will develop.

Simply put, unless you have a crystal ball and/or are the one deciding how the Kaveri MK1 will be used, these are just claims and not ones necessarily supported by facts either. On the other hand, there has been enough credible investment and support for the programs I already mentioned in the previous post. That you think the KMGT is a R&D project as versus a program to field an operational GT for naval use is also a pointer, as it is intended for exactly the opposite.

Another thing is you continue to focus on the Kaveri for aerospace use, but a huge amount of potential lies in its industrial applications. India will be investing heavily in power generation, and other areas where derivatives of the current Kaveri can well find a role. The people who laid the groundwork for the Kaveri, and those who currently lead it are looking at many uses for the program, not just aircraft.

Congrats to your achivement with the Kaveri! An important step forward for the growing Indian aerospace industry.
But what role will Kaveri fill in IAF? I thought an GE engine had all ready been choosen for Tejas?

The Kaveri is the cornerstone of a national engine development program, which has not been much (if it all) discussed in the lay press. Kaveri and Kaveri derivatives are earmarked for a variety of current and future programs, from fighters (Kaveri & Snecma M88 derived hybrid) to LIFT, trainers (Kaveri variants) to naval use (marine version), heavy transport (power pack for trains etc contemplated) to industrial turbines.

Production orders for these systems, even spread out amongst different types/variants in limited numbers, will still translate to a sizable shot in the arm for local indian industry but also enable them to invest in continued development of production processes and retain expertise and talent developed through this program.

Currently, India is wholly dependent on external providers for modern gas turbines and the Kaveri is the first step in changing this, to some extent.