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Exactly the point I was making. Why would the PAF want French avionics and weapons on the JF-17 unless they were not satisfied with what the Chinese were providing. In the past as well, almost all Chinese imports for the PAF had Western avionics integrated and even AIM-9s because the PAF found their performance better than Chinese equivalents. And I would think that even after such a deal is signed with the French, the integration of such equipment, testing, etc. will take anywhere between 1 to 2 years.

Absolutely, and given the issues India has faced in getting an affordable price for the Mirage 2000 upgrade, one can understand the problems Pakistan is facing.

Hence my pointer to the state of the economy. The RC-400, nav attack kit, MC, Mica & integration wont come cheap.

And Pakistan is currently not doing too well economically either..

That is true. They are said to be waiting for the J-10B variant to mature although it may have to do with funding as well with F-16 Block 52s to be paid for as well as JF-17s.

My take is its funding. As things stand, a J-10 is more potent than a JF-17. They’d love to have them, but they simply cant..

That’s like the IAF waiting for the LCA Mk2. Only difference is that no Pakistani says that the PAF thinks that the J-10 is not worth inducting as of now because its not there yet (capability wise) to be their front-line 4th generation fighter, whereas everyone likes to say that the IAF is not inducting more LCA Mk1s than the 48 because its not meeting requirements. All a question of how people interpret things and how they present it. One thing can be presented as a sign of failure whereas another can be presented as “waiting for it to mature”..;)

Absolutely.

Thing is the IAFs can afford to wait & ask for the best.

They are getting Su-30 MKIs, all sorts of upgrades.

Having said that, I wouldnt be surprised if they end up picking an additional LCA sq if the MRCA gets delayed, though its unlikely at this point.

The MK1 is really a huge improvement over our MiGs (bar the 29) in service.

They’ll ask you to find evidence to prove that it doesn’t..the fact that you (or them) cannot find a picture or an article of a JF-17 with BVR missiles apparently isn’t enough proof.

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Teer, are you now suggesting T-72s are as modern as Pakistani T-80s and Al Khalids?

Do you know just how amazingly and utterly flawed you are now starting to look like on thsi forum?

Cherrypicking quotes out of context in a desparate attempt to appear relevant Rimmer?

Who would have thought..:)

Since you clearly are unaware of the basics of tank technology.. let me explain it to you..your T-80UDs, Al Khalids, the T-72, the T-90 all share the same classical Soviet layout..125mm gun, autoloader (the T-80s have a somewhat different system btw), low profile etc.

As such they have quite similar strengths and weaknesses.

Unfortunately for your rather imaginative comparisons, India is getting ~1657 T-90s which kind of put your 300 odd T-80s and a similar number of Al Khalids into some perspective.

Your much vaunted tanks, even if painted green, wont be enough.

As regards, your remaining fewer obsolete T-85II APs and Type59 redux Al Zarrars, India has 692 upgraded T-72s already.

You see…all these “details” they come down to something known as the economy…if your economy does well, one tends to spend on such things.

Of course, from your words, apparently Pakistan suffers no such qualms. How wonderful.

T-72s are not modern tanks, they are not even night capable.

Over 250 are.

If the T-72s are not “modern” btw, then none of the Pakistani tanks are modern either…all follow the same classic 3 man crew, autoloader, 125mm gun et al dictum.

Apart from the old Type 59’s upgraded as “Al Zarrars” or whatever.

BMPs? 1000 for a million man army?

Need only be enough for the CSD tasked strike units.

What are the rest of the “mechanised” divisions going to do when “Cold Start” needs to start?Get railway tickets?

Now now, I really dont think Pakistan will just roll over that quickly..

Well, let me put things in perspective.

Right now PA is have a constant stream of Pakistani manufactured Al Khalids and Al Thala APCs and US made M109s being delivered to its Armoured and Infantry fromations.

India is not.

India has a much bigger fleet of T-72s, and has a constant stream of T-90’s, BMPs, Pinaka MLRS, Smerch, Brahmos being delivered to its formations..

I dont need words when the facts speak for themselves.

My, those do look like words in the sentence above.

One final comment. Regarding the permission-whether its required or not for export of JV products to other- i guess it depends on the original contract/s. And without that you cant say anything with absolute conviction. For argument sake, if a third country-not considered to be an indian ally-wants to buy brahmos in big numbers-or another product of some russ/ind JV-from russia, im sure russia has the expertise/resources to replace everything of indian origin in this missile. So does that make it a new russia-specific variant which russia could sell without indian permission or does it remain a modified brahmos-a by product of the JV- for which russia requires indian permission. How can one say conclusively unless one is privy to the contract details or has some other solid evidence?

The Brahmos comparison is not actually an apples to apples comparison, because we know the Indian side, apart from funding , developed the following systems:

Missile – Nav attack, assisted work on seekers (MKII variant, SCAN)
Launchers – developed by L&T India
FCS- Developed by India
MCP and GCP (Mission and Group centers) – developed by India – ECIL, in particular

These are all the systems used in each and every trial of the Brahmos so far.

So clearly, to replace all these systems with own systems and validate them, Russia would have to spend more money and go to significant effort.

This is a key factor, apart from the agreement itself.

However, in the case of the JF-17, what exactly does CATIC have to replace, that was originally developed by Pakistan and is critical to the operation of the JF-17?

Even assuming the rest of what you said is cent per cent true, all it reiterates is that Pakistan has a limited amount of influence (e.g. veto power) – which as I noted in my prior post, is of limited utility (its not as if China was going to sell a squadron of JF-17s to India anyways) and there is no “given fact” that the PRC may not sell its own variant to another nation (as it did with the MBT 2000, K-8 etc).

Thats the thing with licensed manufacturing deals, wherein you acquire technology from an OEM, either you pay so much for overarching rights that the acquisition becomes pyrrhic (so obviously nobody does this) or you live with compromises (which is the case).

The “investment” Pakistan made has already resulted in it getting TOT and modification rights, so its not as if Pakistan did not get anything for its investment either. In the case of the UAE Vipers, UAE did not get TOT or manufacturing rights, they just took a percentage of whatever future sales would be made.

Thats all I was saying.

ps. One must show respect to otherrs & their opinions/beliefs in order to expect something back. 🙂

If “opinions/beliefs” were expressed with logic to support them, and rudeness was not used as a substitute/crutch…it would much much easier to buy into these “opinions/beliefs”.

Sadly such is not always the case.

Teer, i wish i had the time or facilities to respond in detail- reasons mentioned earlier. This was an interesting topic n hence i decided to add my 2 cents, & i guess i will have to wait till another interesting topic comes up. 🙂

No issues.

Regarding the entire discussion thus far, my point was very simple. While both sides can offer their own argument & counter-arguments (all valid), the questions are open ended. Neither side could offer proof that settles something beyond the shadow of a doubt. We all have to be reasonable, and allow others to make their own judgement based on their own reasoned logic & available evidence, when a definitive conclusive proof is not available to any side. And more importantly we have to respect that.

Actually, to be concise, your first couple of lines are exactly what some of us were pointing out to another individual, that there was no definitive evidence of the JF-17 being BVR capable, yet, and it was far too open ended to state anything definitive. Thats just about it.

Regarding your comments about LSP JF-17/LCA i stand corrected. Though to me LSP is LSP in the strict sence and both MK-1 & JF-17 from 09 are part of definitive SP. MK-2/JF-17 second batch would b improved versions/blocks etc. As of this moment one cant be sure if we would have MK-3/further improved JF-17 third batch by the time MK-2/JF-17 second batch are ready for induction. Hope you get the point, though i do know we are on the same page.

We are on the same page – as far as I am concerned, while there may be various sub-blocks eg MK1 s/w release 2, the series production variants would have more or less a certain overall equipment fit etc which should be discernible.

As we can see thats not the case with the JF-17 of which limited numbers are ordered for the first batch, same as for the LCA, and hence both the LCA & JF-17 are indeed following a similar trajectory in that sense.

Regarding RC-400/Mica or whatever combination for the second batch of JF-17, that is accordance with their old plans (dating back to 2003/04 at least). They are likely to have compared & if french option is selected at the end of the day, then so be it.

Which only supports the point that if they were not happy with the avionics then and wanted French then itself, they would be unlikely to invest heavily in an alternative as an interim.

Though economic constraints are obvious, they only add to the supporting evidence & do not form a conclusive proof.

Well, economic conditions in Pakistan have certainly taken a turn for the worse over the past few years, have they not. In between we had a period of stabilization, but now thats regressed. Also, whenever the economy turns in a such a manner, compromises are made across the board, including the military. If it does not happen, the state may end up defaulting on obligations, and the economic managers job is to prevent that.

Anyway i hope you people keep adding to the itelligent & constructive discussion. 🙂

I do hope the other gentlemen are as civil and gracious as you are! 🙂

I think bias is clouding your responses, all I said in original post that Chinese companies like Hongdu benefited from foreign capital because they do not have much influence with govt and military when comes to allocating cash.

Since you highlighted Pakistan purchases and what would their role be when marketing say JF17, I will say they will show potential buyers that there is another airforce using plane. Who knows what pak role will be, so why discuss it. All I say is why would Peru buy MBT 2000, when PLA uses different tanks?

Your responses, and increasingly personalized at that “bias is clouding your responses”, indicate a somewhat desperate attempt to deflect attention from what I originally said, and which point you still have been unable to counter.

So lets get to that.

Namely – China owns the JF-17 and it can sell it to other nations without Pakistans involvement.

That is all I said. That point remains.

As to why Peru bought the MBT-2000, could be a variety of reasons. Cost effectiveness for one vis a vis more expensive Western, Russian and the more capable Chinese designs (some of which may not even be up for export). Clearly though, they purchased the MBT 2000, not the “jointly developed” Al Khalid.

The same may yet apply for sales of the JF-17, or rather its Chinese designation.

You do relise, I meant non govt sources as non Chinese govt, whether it is from Pakistan or say Turkey (rocket projects) it is still considered outside investment. Plus they had a established market to sell product, so there was little risk.
I am sure I said something similiar in origional post.

Could of, but they did not.

ok.

When did I say anything about alliances, I said Chinese companies benefit too from cooperation. Thats the theme of my posts.

Norinco has sold Type 96 tanks to Sudan, so why did Peru not pick them. Yes no evidence to say PA was involved in pitch, but the fact remains if PA did not pick tank, would Norinco continue development on program, when PLA have choosen Type 96 and Type 99.

As said before MBT 2000 would have been a dead project if PA did not pick tank up.

How have I reteriated you point. You seemed to suggest Chinese companies should not work with other nations, who only bring capital to table. I seem to be saying the opposite.

To get to the point, basically all you are doing here is reiterating my original point, which was that the Chinese could and did sell the MBT 2000 abroad to another country on their own, and not the Al Khalid.

And have not provided any evidence so far to suggest that Pakistan got anything out of this specific deal.

I agree with both points. They are what I was stating.

The same may well apply to the JF-17 as well, and whatever its base design is called in Chinese literature or whatever CATIC chooses to market it as in markets such as South America, where it really does not need Pakistan.

Pakistan may play some role in marketing the fighter in the Middle East etc. but even thats not a certainty.