Or then again, not. Thats a design from the T-4MS program, specifically layout 2 from 1970.

Thank goodness. That design put the u back in ug…ly

Back to topic, has anyone checked out the archive feature on Flighglobal – a fascinating repository of aviation info., available for free, and without the hassle of registering and what not.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/index.html

They have some really detailed articles on the original Jags for instance.

1) Canberra pancaked at Srinagar and was subsequently recovered after major reengineering so is classified as a kill.

LOL, sure – anything and everything to claim a kill…just the engine needed replacing plus patch up work on the fuselage..

One of the most visible PR.57s in the IAF was IP990 (which is shown in the photograph below). This was the PR.57 that was struck by a missile during the Kargil War. Sqn Ldr Perumal felt an explosive thud on 21 May 1999 while on a PR sortie over the war torn mountainous sector. A Stinger missile had hit the left engine of IP990. Sqn Ldr Perumal and his navigator Flt Lt Jha carried out a skillful landing at Srinagar airfield. Perumal was awarded a well deserved Shaurya Chakra much later (in 2006).

106 Squadron ground crews spent four days attending to IP990 at Srinagar. Wg Cdr Bhalla then ferried IP990 to Agra from Srinagar after its engine, jet pipe and shroud were replaced.

So much for the BS about pancaking.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/History/Aircraft/Canberra/Canberra03.html

http://www.twocircles.net/2007may13/when-sturdy-canberra-saved-its-crew-despite-missile-hit.html

2) Mi-8 was an Anza hit.

India says Stingers..

3) Flameout is the Indian version. Pakistani version says Anza hit

Nonsense.

http://kaiser-aeronaut.blogspot.com/2009/01/kargil-conflict-and-pakistan-air-force.html

While a MiG-27 went down due to engine trouble caused by gun gas ingestion during high altitude strafing.

According to M. Kaiser Tufail. Pakistan AF….more credible in this one thing than “Bryant”.

4) Was an Anza hit. Being killed by captors is the Indian version.

BTW how can IAF distinguish between a Stinger or an Anza hit? They prefer being hit by Stinger as it makes them feel better to be shot by a supposedly more advance American missile rather than Pakistani rip-off of a Chinese design.

Perhaps because they captured the peaks after your guys skedaddled & recovered the empty launch tubes.

And the Anza is not a Pakistani ripoff of a Chinese design but a locally assembled licensed version.

But lets see what your own AF’s officer says:

Lt Gen Mehmud assured us that air support was not envisaged and that his forces could take care of enemy aircraft, if they intervened. “I have Stingers on every peak,” he announced.

So much for your Anza’s. Next time, before jumping in, do some research.

To that list I would add the IAF AN-32 which crossed over the border and was hit on the engine by an Anza but survived.

Yeah, we should be happy that you didnt add that to the list of mythical kills.

With the addition of radar possibly E/L-2032 , the Jags will acquire some basic BVR capability in the form on Derby.

But I think the primary aim of having nose mounted radar is to give it a good realtime SAR capability for weapons delivery and to get terrain following/avoidance mode.

Is HAL building any new Jaguars ? perhaps with all the upgrade and Darin 3 standards we should have this aircraft in more numbers second only to MKI.

Jaguar production is more or less done. No more orders are being placed.

There is so much money involved in all this, that a lot of arms agents and influence peddlers have had and continue to have a lot riding on creating a perception that “x” program has trouble, y has to be bought.

Add to that an Indian media which is incompetent (mostly) to the nth degree and will publish any rubbish on defence, and has no way to be called to heel.

There were so many attempts to cancel the Sukhoi deal by the usual suspects that when it was inducted both the Def Min. and the CAS made it a point to note that the aircraft had arrived, and that the country was committed to the program.

The arms business is a dirty game and the fact is most of the state owned DPSUs and DRDO etc dont even have a PR arm to counter the FUD spread about their products.

One SAM battery retails around ~$ 40-60 Million considering reloads, spares, lifecycle costs etc. Now consider an Arms dealer % and what he stands to lose when a local project succeeds.
One can ..errr influence ..a series of reports in local media for around ~$2000 in comparison.

Its classic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty_and_doubt

Whats even more ironic is that website is talking of the “old” Su-35, which itsel had all this tech. The new (current) Su-35 will be much further along.

Regarding the substance of your argument, HME, it’s all very pretty but no facts to back it up, so rather full of hot air.

[*] If you actually bother to calculate T/W ratios, you’ll find only a 5% difference between Rafale and Typhoon. Hard to see how it’s possible to claim a “massive edge” for the Typhoon over the F-15, while at the same claiming that the Rafale “lags the F-15 in performance.”

[*] Your fixation on helmet displays is stange. HMDs aren’t relevant for BVR combat, as proven by the fact that the F-22 doesn’t carry one. Why is this not an issue for the F-22 but an issue for Typhoon/Rafale?

[*] Towed decoys don’t mix well with passive stealth, which is why neither the F-22 nor F-35 have them. The fact that the Rafale doesn’t either isn’t necessarily a weakness – it indicates a different concept of operations. We can’t tell whether the Spectra + OSF + Mica IR combo work less well than Captor + Pirate + Amraam.

Fair points HME.

I have heard a lot about Spectra’s capabilities from very serious folks not to discount what it brings to the fight.

I may be wrong, but I believe the French had their own specific requirements about low observability which determined their choice of radar, EW & weapons fit. That doesnt make the Rafale inferior, it just makes it different with a different suite of systems that give it unique capabilities in the tactical arena.

Teer,

You’re entitled to your opinion.

I’m entitled to mine.

My opinion is that Jackonicko has been subjected to far worse abuse from the French contingent than he has doled out, as have Scorpion 82, Swerve and Sintra.

One sows as one reaps. If Jackonicko was ever as gracious or sensible as the latter three you mentioned (and who dont deserve to be clubbed with him), he wouldnt have attracted the kind of attention he revels in.

The more anyone questions the ‘superiority’ of the Rafale, and certainly the more anyone suggests that Typhoon is a better fighter, or has a better man machine interface, or has a better engine, or whatever, the more likely it is that they’ll get a hysterical torrent of abuse from Dare and others, backed up by calmer but equally offensive stuff from other posters. As the most vocal critic of Rafale (and since he’s also ruder in dealing with his critics), Jackonicko gets it in the neck most and most often. Often deservedly, and often because he’s winding people up deliberately (in my opinion).

HME, I agree with your last statements about him winding people up deliberately – thats trolling pure and simple.

Also, IMHO, its not a question of whether he has an opinion, it is a question of whether he has definitive proof – which he doesnt (its always secret squirrel sources and weasel words) and then attacks thereafter on the credibility of the French who nine tenths of the time lose out on the language aspect.

The issue is not of having an opinion, its knowing when to call it quits and agree to disagree, thats something he wont admit – because if he does, wheres the fun in winding up the French then?

The tactic seems to be to shout down anything that doesn’t fit with their prejudices, and to attack the individual poster rather than that poster’s argument. What’s most unpleasant is that it’s usually quite offensive – questioning their opponents’ honesty and integrity.

Thats exactly what Jackonicko does. French posters are fanboys, Opit who apparently is part of the French services is “armpit”, French officials are PR hacks, paid flunkeys, they dont know any better. A test pilot who flies the Rafale is likewise – I mean how much of the patronizing rubbish does one have to take before calling it what it is?

In particular, the point of view that Rafale is a better fighter-bomber, and Typhoon a better pure fighter always attracts frenetic criticism, though you couldn’t come up with a more even handed and balanced statement – whether its right or wrong, or whether you agree with it or not.

Thats your point of view but I have my own, which states that both are multirole fighters. And frankly, about the EF being this or the Rafale that, just because it gets repeated a dozen times doesnt make it true.

I am yet to see any reason why the EF cant be as effective in A2G or the Rafale in A2A. Both fighters have their pros and cons and can be used effectively.

But the point remains that however ‘back handed’ his compliments may be Jackonicko says nicer things about Rafale than Dare, Nick, Kovy and Opit ever say about Eurofighter.

Frankly, and no offense intended to you personally, but this is a bit rubbish. First, Dare is nowhere in the same group as Nick, Kovy and Opit. They often tell him to shut up, and well they might.

Second, they have been far more gracious about the Eurofighter & its peers and that most 4+ G fighters have pros and cons than Jackonicko who seems to be blinded by his national blinkers.

I don’t know about you, but I don’t come here to read personal stuff about posters (they’re internet users, for goodness sake, which probably means socially inept and a bit sad) let alone to waste my time defending them.

Sure, but it’d be good if Jackonicko stopped bringing up himself and his good friend, the two time aviation award winner whenever he starts facing some hard questions about the lack of credibility vis his statements.

Its playing a rather dubious game here on his part.

My mum taught me that if you can’t be nice about someone, you should keep quiet.

A pity Jackonicko didnt have the same schooling about internet etiquette.

It’s the frequent failure to obey this basic politeness (especially when it comes to anyone daring to express a slightly contrary opinion about the Dassault Rafale) that makes me disinclined to visit this board, let alone post. My new year’s resolution will be to stay away from this particular playground, I think, as I really don’t like the bullying and childishness that it seems to descend into so often.

Thats your choice to make.

Personally, I all for pro and con arguements about the Rafale as long as they are made in a decent, civilized manner.

The amazing part is that while upfront trolls like Dare frequently get outed, the subtle ones like Jackonicko fly under the radar. If both went their way, the board would be a better place.

And for the record, I think that Rafale and Typhoon both promise to be great aircraft, but that in their present state of maturity, both are extremely limited and flawed, Rafale less so than Typhoon, of course, but not by enough.

I think both are fine aircraft and have their own strengths and weaknesses. A lot depends on the JSF as to whether their potential market remains limited or actually increases if further delays occur.

As an ‘Englishman in New York’ it’s in this critical area of maturity that I see the Eurocanards falling down. If they lived up to the brochures they’d be way better than the latest incarnations of the teen series, but they don’t and they aren’t. Too much doesn’t work yet, or doesn’t work properly, and too much is lacking. No helmet on either, no AESA on either, no laser designator on Rafale, no stand off air-to-surface weapon on Typhoon. It’s pathetic, to be honest, and however great the performance and potential, you’d still take an F-15E or a Super Hornet to war, if you had to go tomorrow, however much they’re yesterday’s airplanes at the very limit of their development potential.

I feel you are being too harsh on both platforms here. They are new airframes and have a bit of a teething curve to go through.

Once they do so, they have far more development potential than both the F-15 and Super Hornet, both of which are either legacy platforms or design limited in certain areas. Plus there are developments such as the Meteor which will make both fighters very potent in air to air, and stuff like the Spectra HADF and AASM which provide substantial A2G capability.

Harry

Great talking to you Harry.

PS: It’s Douglas Barrie, by the way, not ‘Dave’.

I mixed him with Dave Fulghum.

PPS: The journo you think is Jackonicko’s glove puppet (or vice versa) has been libelled as being a paid shill for BAE, when in fact, he has criticised them in print, and certainly seems more balanced than any of his attackers. I don’t know what vitriol-laced article you are referring to. My guess is that it was the rebuttal of the Phil Collins flight test. I saw no vitriol, myself, it seemed very critical but in pretty measured language.

Funnily enough, he seems to have made up for that fair enough. And I disagree with the “measured language” bit – neither this, nor the previous article on the EF vs Rafale made any pretence of being objective or balanced.

I am not even French, and let me tell you something. Both pieces came across as shameless, partisan puff pieces for the EF Typhoon. But what made it downright nasty were the snide references and attacks on the Rafale.

Thats what makes me so disgusted about his behaviour.

PS: See TMor’s statement in the Rafale thread. Sums it all up.