Yahoo25Russian Radars are two to three times heavy, prone to jamming by Western counter measures, bulky(high volume) and has low MTBF hrs. Latest APG-68 has claimed to have 400 hrs of MTBF.
Yahoo25Russia’s Sukhoi Seen Likely To Win Brazil Govt Jet Deal
By Anthony Dovkants
Of DOW JONES NEWSWIRES
699 words
19 April 2004
11:42
Dow Jones International News
SAO PAULO (Dow Jones)–Talk within Brazilian government circles and among bidders is pointing to Russia’s Sukhoi as the likely winner of a $778 million government contract for 12 new fighter jets.
Expectations are also mounting that the government will announce the winner on the symbolic date of April 22, when the Brazilian Air Force celebrates `fighter jet aviation day.’
Sources close to the matter say the Russian group’s so-called offset compensation package is superior to those offered by rival bidders, which include Brazil’s Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica SA (ERJ), or Embraer, and its French partner Dassault Aviation SA (12172.FR), and Gripen International, a unit of BAE Systems PLC (BA.LN) and Saab AB (SAAB-B.SK).
Rosoboronexport, the Russian government agency representing Sukhoi, has said it would create 1,000 new high-paying jobs here, set up an air-to-air missile factory, help Brazil get its space program off the ground and buy more than $3 billion worth of local goods over seven years.
“It looks increasingly like the Russians have won it,” said a person close to the matter. “Everything points to that.”
Felipe Salles, marketing manager for consultancy CSE – Camargo Sistemas and Engenharia, which represents Rosoboronexport here, said the Russian group is simply waiting for the final decision from the government.
The Ministry of Defense said the winner is yet to be decided. According to Colonel Leandro Acacio Esvael, the decision ultimately lies with President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, who will be advised by a special committee. The date of such a meeting is yet to be set, he said.
Another government committee studying the proposals recently decided that Sukhoi and Gripen provided the best jets and offsets.
Gripen has said it’s prepared to work with any Brazilian company, set up local joint ventures, open up a center of technology with Brazil’s second-largest airline, Varig SA (VAGV4.BR), and assemble planes here if need be.
“We remain confident that we can win,” said Owe Wagermark, communications director for Gripen International and former deputy chief of the Swedish Air Force.
Until recently, Embraer and Dassault had been considered favorites thanks to the Brazilian company’s strong connections with the government.
Brazilian air force pilots, however, prefer the performances of the Sukhoi SU-35 and Gripen JAS-39 jets to Dassault’s Mirage 2000-5 Mk2 planes. The Sukhoi travels long distance without refueling and has a heavier payload than its rivals, while the much smaller JAS-39 has state-of-the art technology and is being likened to that of a nimble high-end sports car.
Sources close to the Ministry of Defense also say Embraer and Dassault’s offset package wasn’t as attractive as the others. Embraer has said the French group would be prepared to transfer its technologies to Brazil, and the planes would be assembled here.
Still, if Sukhoi is awarded the contract, it wouldn’t mean that Embraer is out of the transaction. The local government has regularly said this year that a Brazilian company or companies would be involved in the deal no matter what.
The Russian company has also said it would want Embraer to assemble its fighter jets here. Rosoboronexport has said Russia would like to work with the world’s fourth-largest commercial plane maker to produce 50 regional jets or more together.
“If it’s confirmed and Sukhoi wins, Rosoboronexport will try to bring Embraer on board,” said a person close to the matter. “If Embraer joins, then it will likely take the next six to eight months defining contractual details between the two sides,” said a person close to the matter.
Embraer declined to comment about the progress of the military tender offer, which is an important slice of a $3.4 billion overhaul of Brazil’s air defense system. The winner would gain a critical position in a region dominated by U.S. firms.
-By Anthony Dovkants; Dow Jones Newswires; 55-11-3145-1478; anthony.dovkantsdowjones.com
(Rogerio Jelmayer contributed to this article) [ 19-04-04 1842GMT ]
Yahoo25Su-35 has 18400KG empty weight and Uses AL-37FU engines(around 31000LBS thrust engines). According http://www.maks.ru. Canards and TVC adds another 1200KG to Su-30MKK weight. So Su-30MKI should have 19600KG empty weight. And -MKI uses the standard AL-31F engines(27,500 thrust) with TVC.
Yahoo25Actually I agree, M2K crashes are not often.. unlike a certain aircraft with a single engine and bubble canopy 😉
I think you should stop posting on this forum. You have no idea what you are talking about.
Yahoo25Italian have shown i think Aspide 2000. which means they are still in BVR business with Grifo.
Yahoo25The IAF MiG-29 vs M200 dogfight ratio is 7-3 for the MiG always.
But the F-16 becomes quite a bag when it is loaded up with bombs, that is what the PAF will use it for most likely, the F-16 won’t be the dogfighter, it will be escoted by the FC-1.
F-16A with -220E engines(27000LBS) have higher TWR than any of its opponnets you mentioned and add to this better cockpit visibility, smaller rcs as compared to Fulcrum and Flanker and over 2 decades of PAF training and tactics developed around this aircraft gives it considerable edge. I agree it will be used more for bombing when FC-1 comes into service but it is not slouch either.
Yahoo25Didn’t Belguim, not the US, perform the MSIP on the PAF F-16s? As in, outside of any US influence, as SABCA was producing an MLU kit?
As for the Gripen, yes the engine matters if you want to sell it abroad. Unless the PAF wants a bunch of advanced jet fighters that lack powerplants, that is.
I don’t think PAF F-16 has been touched by outside countries for a very long time. There is a report which i will find if i get back to my computer where PAF is not giving to US request of upgrading those F-16s. May be they have made some unauthrorize changes.
I don’t think PAF will ever buy Gripen. It is advanced but range and payload is short.
Yahoo25If we won’t send Pakistan more F-16s, why would they be allowed to get the Gripen from Sweden? Don’t they need our approval for the F404-based engine?
Engine is i think not considered critical. It is the Radar , EW suite and weopons thats important. PAF F-16 are already at MLU interms of engine.
http://www.depo.org.pk/products/pac/mirage.htm
Upgrades F – 16 Aircraft Engine F100 – 200 to F100 – 220E
Yahoo25PAF is not interested in F-16 due BVR but for Strike purpose. It carries more weopons
to longer range. As long as engine and airframe works PAF will be fine.
Yahoo25Post proof or retract.
How can information from person can be presented as a proof unless it is disclosed publicly thats why i wrote i will write about it later. And there is no proof S-300 success against newer missiles either. The only way it is successful is because of embargoes. India is not under embargo so it is not buying it. And Pakistan does not start projects where success is not 100% assured from the start.
here is some old news regarding PAF ability to upgrade foreign missiles.
PAF upgrades Crotale missiles indigenously
By Shakil ShaikhISLAMABAD: Opening a new chapter of indigenisation and self-reliance in defence systems, Pakistan Air Force has indigenously overhauled surface-to-air anti-aircraft Crotale missiles and upgraded its range.
The roll-out ceremony of this indigenously overhauled Crotale missiles was held on Thursday at the PAF Base, Chaklala. Air Chief Marshal Pervaiz Mehdi Qureshi, Chief of the Air Staff, was the chief guest on the occasion.
Terming it a landmark, official sources said the PAF has indigenously enhanced the Crotale missile original range of 20 kilometres to 30 kilometres. “The existing Crotale 2000 have been upgraded to Crotale 4000,” said an official source.
Dr Sumar Mubarakmand, chairman NESCOM Pakistan, said Pakistan was in the forefront of South Asian nations in the field of defence. It produces “smart weapons” that it needs for its three services, as well as an array of missile systems ranging from Abdali at the lowest end to Shaheen at the highest, he said.
Yahoo25Why should we trust your information over anybody else’s? You can “disclose” whatever you want, but merely typing numbers and letters without souce data to back it up is pointless and does nothing for the credibility either the data you are trying to present or yourself as a researcher.
And your penchant for labeling anything Russian as automatically inferior is getting rather old. Does this possibly have something to do with your opinion regarding an Su-30MKI operator, perhaps? Sometimes, I have to wonder.
And if you do a Yahoo! search for “ADS-37” Pakistan, you’ll find it mentioned in the 2003 archives of Pakdef. As well as an entry there from before June 30th of this year, made by a different poster. But that can’t be right, I thought only you knew the designation ADS-37?
No. It has nothing to do with Russian weopons operator. I got information
from the person who worked on it not picked from some forums.
Yahoo25Before you do all that, maybe you would wanna provide correct links to the alleged articles that you post? Oh, and BTW, I could find no such article in that newspaper for that day, so either I couldn’t find it, or you fabricated it?
SOC, I will post on the 1500 number later. It refers to the total number of missiles bought by China for it’s S-300/400 based missiles.
Before questioning me. you should learn better methods of searhcing a Newspaper. Go to the http://www.jang.com.pk. then click on back issues of The News for August 23, 2004, than go down to business and Economy section
than click on weekly business review and Top most article is this one. Infact there are two articles by the same author on the same day. Thats why you are confused.
Yahoo25“Though not as sophisticated as the Russian S-300”
There goes the “ADS-37 is superior to anything Russian” argument…
Nope. Mine information is 100% accurate. It is just they are not reporting it correctly. or export version is down graded. Remember i was the first one which disclose it with name. i have some more information about it which i will disclose it later.
Yahoo25This is from todays newspaper. It shows that this system exists but they are not correct in saying it is not sophisticated. may be export version is down graded.
Meanwhile, Syria has been trying to purchase the Almaz S-300 (NATO ordnance: SA-10 “Grumble”) air defence system from Moscow. Negotiations have dragged on for years, hampered by Syria’s $ 11 billion debt to Russia and by Damascus’ insistence on a long-term repayment plan. Procurement of the S-300 system would make a major improvement in Syrian air defence. It would also mark the most important step in Syria’s long-running effort to bolster its military.
But with negotiations between Damascus and Moscow seemingly bogged down, Pakistan appears to be in a good position to offer its domestically manufactured air defence system to Syria. Though not as sophisticated as the Russian S-300, the Pakistani system would still be a marked improvement over Syria’s present system.
Also
Breaking the US hold on the Saudi market won’t be easy. But it can be done, given the much lower price Pakistan is in a position to offer for not only APCs but also for tanks and several other types of defence equipment manufactured in this country, and also given the strained relations between the US and Saudi Arabia in the wake of 9/11. Arms-for-oil swap deals between Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are also a possibility that should be explored.
Yahoo25folks pls check the S-300 for china thread. the first , second and third orders addup to a few hundred TELs and likely 1500 missiles multiplying by four. the third order has just been placed and they wouldnt be spending $1 billion right now if something domestic of similar capability was available in near future.
total investment is surely in the $2.5-3 billion range for the S300 systems alone and definitely the largest heavy-SAM deployment ever in world history.
At the lower end per Huitong’s site they are license making a bunch of stuff like Tor in hundreds of units. perhaps Tunguska too?
$2 to $3B over 15 years period is not alot of money considering China defence budget. So it does not prove that they are spending huge amount on this system. $2 to 3B over 5 years is some thing big but not for 15 years.
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